267 réponses à ce sujet

[Jenonax]

OP, respect your opinion.  Disagree entirely.

I hate all the endings.  They were all unnecessarily cruel and with the exception of Destroy we have no idea, really, of the consequences.

My problems with synthesis are as such

1.  Its what the Reapers want. 

Or at least its what the Catalyst really wants you to do.  Last time I checked he was the enemy.  He was their leader, controller - whatever. He is in direct opposition to me.  We do not want the same things.  He wants to harvest organic life for whatever nefarious purposes and I want to stop him.  Therefore, why on Earth would I choose to do something he suggests is the best solution?  We are not reaching a compromise here.  The Catalyst is straight up telling Shepard to choose between three ****ty choices and Shepard is blindly going along with it.  This really is the most blatant, in-your-face reason I can come up with as it slapped me pretty hard in the face on my playthrough.

2.  How? 

Exactly how does it work?  How does a beam of energy, which from simply having a cosmetic change to green suddenly go from a seemingly electrical impulse to send messages to the Reapers to let Shepard take control or a blast wave to destroy them, to being able to fundementaly change DNA?  What happens exactly?  Do organs change to computers?  Is my blood now motor oil?  Are we all conglomorated into one giant machine?  Does my toaster grow a heart?  Does my fan now have fingers?  Exactly what are the mechanics of this?

3.  Unforseen Consequences. 

We have absolutely no idea what the consequences are of synthesis. We're not switching to an alternate universe here.  One would think that there would be massive trauma from this sudden change, we now have machine bits for goodness sake!  Does everyone survive this change?  Can anyone survive?  If not, how many are dead from this?  And we're not exactly in the best medical shape right now are we, after the whole war thing, so how do we cope?  What about the people who think even accepting blood transfusions or somesuch is wrong?  What about them?  What right did I have to force this choice on them?  And even if we all do survive the initial green wave, what about later?  What about the fact that our bodies now function differently?  I guess that's thousands of years worth of medical knowledge out the window, better call the mechanics instead!  What about the Geth?  Can they still commune with each other, are they still networked now they're half organic?  What about us organics?  Can I network with everyone else now?  You claim that synthesis will bring about peace but then try to state that it will maintain individuality.  I'm sorry, but I don't think those two can coexist.  As a previous poster said above, if individuality remains then we still retain those flaws and character quirks that lead us to conflict in the first place, so what the hell was the point of synthesising everyone?

4.  Why?

Why am I synthesising everyone again?  I have the option to destroy the Reapers, you know, what I've been trying to do for three games now?

The point I'm trying to get at is, Bioware gave us no information from which to base an informed choice, we are left to wildly speculate and for the life of me, OP I cannot see anything positive in synthesis.  Maybe with clarification it might be more appealing.  But the fact is we don't know what synthesis will bring, we don't know the consequences or even what will really happen to us.  That's why I think that its the worst of the options because its the one we know least about.

[AlexXIV]

Even if there was a way to defend Synthesis (which I sort of doubt), the problem remains that the writing is bad. The additional choices just pop up from nowhere and Shepard, who went up there to destroy the Reapers suddenly has to make choices which bring up questions he/she can't possibly answer within seconds. Even we can't answer them after 2 months. Shepard could probably only refuse to do anything the Catalyst says or choose the destroy, which is the easiest choice of all because that has always been the plan. Evaluating the possibilities and chances of either control or synthesis would take years probably. And I doubt Shep has that amount of time to make an educated choice.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 07 mai 2012 - 12:20 .

[Mass effect 2 forever]

Kroguard wrote...

 
It was on my second playthrough where I chose synthesis. Many die-hard fans of the series see the synthesis ending as "immoral" and "disgusting" as it is akin to what Saren promoted. What makes destruction so much more moral? 

With the reaper upgrades, individual Geth platforms were given all the capabilities and many features of their orgaic counterparts. 

REALLY makes it so evil besides the nondescript rants of fans who label it so immoral? While it is a "forced" genetic rewrite of all organics in the galaxy is it not more acceptable than the only other real option which is destruction? No civilization (synthetic or organic) is entirely wiped out, organics and synthetics are merged together, which creates a "new DNA". This means that the reapers no longer have a reason to harvest advanced civilizations, AI like the Geth and EDI still get to exist, and no organic race is destroyed and (depending on EMS levels for individual players) earth is spared. 

Synthesis is the ending of peace. Organic civilizations would most likely develop advanced AI that would come to destroy them as evidenced by several things throughout the Mass Effect universe, the most obvious being the Morning War and Project Overlord. Synthetic and organic civilizations no longer have a reason to clash and the reapers have no further need to harvest advanced life. 


"Respectfully, I think people are leaking their dislike of the style of how the endings were presented with the assumption that synthesis is "stagnation" or "destroying diversity". There is nothing in the game that suggests this. Instead, the Adam/Eve scene between Joker and EDI indicate that synthesis preserved individuality but seemed to tear down the barriers between organic and synthetic life (represented by EDI laying her head on Joker's shoulder) and thus possibly break the cycle of organic extinction by synthetics. 

I couldn't have said it better myself, props to Nategator.

1-Its premised on the concept that organics and synthetics are destined to destroy one another. Thats like saying that the races of the real world are destined to destroy eachother because they have different civilizations or race.

2- In itself it is not bad. It probably is the way of peace but its done for a reason which quite frankly the game explicitly said was unneccesary at multiple points. You note that the Geth getting reaper upgrades made them capable of interacting as ordinary people. Even before then they could have made peace if we consider Legion and that they only acted in defence. So, in a round about way, you accept that the reapers got it right and justify what they did. Since you can pick control synthesis offers nothing else in terms of no race being hurt.

3-Coming to blows and facing problems that need to be resolved is not the same thing as innevitable racial annialation. It is shown that these issues can be resolved. If the narrative Bioware picked was that, as you yourself assume that org/syn will come to blows then it makes your attempts to reconcile the Geth/Quarians were doomed to fail and that EDI would have turned rogue. Thats quite a bleak and grimdark thing to do in your verse.

4-Yes. But how could you ever present synthesis people? These have all the altruism n empathy of people but have the processing power, instant awareness of knowledge etc. It means Geth can have children and you can mate with robots. It is just too much  and I seriously doubt such a scenario could ever be portrayed correctly. These people would be so altered that they should be unrecognisable. Bioware would be coping out or just being silly to make them completely the same as before. So the idea is both ludicrous and can't be done, In fact I would say they were aware of this and was the main reason they avoided doing an epilogue to explain a VERY specious issue about how synthesis would work in practice; because whats ultimately changed? Geth and EDI were already intelligent enough to behave as coherent and emotional individuals.

[BunBun299]

You know, as long as we're making everyone and everything in the galaxy one and the same in the synthesis, why not take it a step further? Why not one gender? It works so well for the Asari. Why shouldn't it work every other species that is all being altered against their will? We could have a galaxy full of space lesbians. And how about we alter appearence so everyone looks more alike, to eliminate that sort of descrimination. How about, say, a galaxy full of blonde haired, blue eyed people? That sound familar to anyone? It should. And it sums up my feelings on synthesis.

[Mass effect 2 forever]

[quote]Kroguard wrote...

[quote]Grimwick wrote...

Well now I'll have to tell you scientifically why it doesn't. The Crucible is based off of the idea that it is a superweapon capable of dispersing levels of energy never before seen. I won't get into all the math and bore you, I'll leave you with some simple facts about physics.
(1) The fact that the Crucible "fires" energy at wavelengths of light in the visible spectrum is indicative of a weapon that isn't as powerful as believed, as energy in the form desired is dissipated by the fact that the weapon fires in this spectrum. 
(2) The fact that (with a certain level of EMS) the Crucible is able to target only specific entities (advanced synthetics) with this energy. Some would point out EMP, but EMP is not in the visible spectrum and would target everything electronic. 
[/quote]

Because.      

This isn't just flooding people with nanites that fill their bodies with artificial tech. This is something with is able to turn organic matter into synthetic and vice versa. Now that there is a contradiction. How can they be both, cells have to reproduce, mechanical parts prevent that and if they're not mechanical then you've just upgraded organics.

Also, even if thats the case. How the HELL can you turn a machine like a Geth into an organic hybrid? That would mean turning solid metal and wires, things with no genetic make-up into living creature equivalents.

Since each race and indeed mind is different this means that the catalyst was programmed to reprogram each individual cell and atom in the human body into a hybrid exactly and with no flaws. Its too complex a process and it just makes the issues really

Its not the targetting which is the problem its that whats being done is ridiculous on so many levels that it obliterates common sense. Even 40k is more believable than this and I do not jest in the slightest.

[Deepo78]

fr33stylez wrote...

WHY would a forced rewrite of all organic and synthetic 'DNA' result in peace? This is my first question.

Agreed, also why would Synthesis even matter for the Geth considering they exist primarily as software and perceive their physical bodies as mere platforms. Other than being pretty dumb, Synthesis seems pretty hollow to me.

[nicethugbert]

Good luck discussing Synthesis, Kroguard. It's opponents include the most uninformed people on these forums.

[Mass effect 2 forever]

nicethugbert wrote...

Good luck discussing Synthesis, Kroguard. It's opponents include the most uninformed people on these forums.

Even if you were right. You don't make a games ending so convoluted and unclear that only a minority of people 'got it' and the rest were left infuriated or confused. Its a bad writer who cannot present their ideas clearly and plainly to their reader.

[Jenonax]

nicethugbert wrote...

Good luck discussing Synthesis, Kroguard. It's opponents include the most uninformed people on these forums.

Do elaborate

[matthewmi]

nicethugbert wrote...

Good luck discussing Synthesis, Kroguard. It's opponents include the most uninformed people on these forums.

We get what one tweets worth of data on synthesis from the catalyst and you are calling people who don't agree with it uninformed? Interesting...

[nicethugbert]

Deepo78 wrote...

fr33stylez wrote...

WHY would a forced rewrite of all organic and synthetic 'DNA' result in peace? This is my first question.

Agreed, also why would Synthesis even matter for the Geth considering they exist primarily as software and perceive their physical bodies as mere platforms. Other than being pretty dumb, Synthesis seems pretty hollow to me.

No one who paid any attention to what The Catalyst said is claiming that there will be peace, only that it will end The Cycle which is peace between synthetics and organics, not peace among the Synthesized.

As for The Geth, it's either a new hardware platform with the proper interface routines or being non-existent or controled.

[Iakus]

BunBun299 wrote...

You know, as long as we're making everyone and everything in the galaxy one and the same in the synthesis, why not take it a step further? Why not one gender? It works so well for the Asari. Why shouldn't it work every other species that is all being altered against their will? We could have a galaxy full of space lesbians. And how about we alter appearence so everyone looks more alike, to eliminate that sort of descrimination. How about, say, a galaxy full of blonde haired, blue eyed people? That sound familar to anyone? It should. And it sums up my feelings on synthesis.

Or give everyone a collective consensus mind like the geth?  If the purpose is to remove conflicet, why not remove individual thought as well?  Organics have proven over and over that they're willing to genocide one another without adding synthetics to the mix?

[nicethugbert]

matthewmi wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

Good luck discussing Synthesis, Kroguard. It's opponents include the most uninformed people on these forums.

We get what one tweets worth of data on synthesis from the catalyst and you are calling people who don't agree with it uninformed? Interesting...

Just look at the first few posts.  Say Synthesis, get "you're indoctrinated" as a response.

[nicethugbert]

Mass effect 2 forever wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

Good luck discussing Synthesis, Kroguard. It's opponents include the most uninformed people on these forums.

Even if you were right. You don't make a games ending so convoluted and unclear that only a minority of people 'got it' and the rest were left infuriated or confused. Its a bad writer who cannot present their ideas clearly and plainly to their reader.

That's a separate issue.  And, it depends on the target audience.  Clearly, BW did not write well for a certain audience.  Now they have to spend the summer doing work they should have done earlier, perhaps taking a hit to their reputation along the way.  The made the bed.  Now they lay in it.

[Mass effect 2 forever]

nicethugbert wrote...

matthewmi wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

Good luck discussing Synthesis, Kroguard. It's opponents include the most uninformed people on these forums.

We get what one tweets worth of data on synthesis from the catalyst and you are calling people who don't agree with it uninformed? Interesting...

Just look at the first few posts.  Say Synthesis, get "you're indoctrinated" as a response.

No you don't. You get told synthesis is a dumb idea and makes no sense.

[Tallestra]

Kroguard wrote...

KosakNZ wrote...
Really?
Lets Ignore the moral repugnancy of saying we should all be the same, rather than learning to accept our differences. Because you should already be aware of it.

Where exactly did I say we should all be the same? Because we would all share similar features of DNA? I fail to see how this makes everybody "the same". Do I need to explain the basics of how DNA works? Hopefully not, but keep in mind that humans share 96% of their DNA (slighty more or less depending on the study) with their closest ancestor, the chimpanzee. Genetic rewrite and the process of creating a "new DNA" does not make everyone the same, it simply gives the organics more features of synthetics and vice versa. 

Well, most of us humans have what, 99.9% identical DNA? And when did it stop us from killing each other? Over such stuff as race, religion, etc.  So, I fail to see how making all of us similar will remove the conflict. And that without discussing scientific logic or lack of it in the synthesis ending.

And let's put the synthesis into different setting. A lot of conflict between humans is a result of two sexes. So, someone decides that the best solution for this conflict is to make us all asexual.  Do you think it's a moral to make entire of humanity asexual?

[Mass effect 2 forever]

nicethugbert wrote...

Mass effect 2 forever wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

Good luck discussing Synthesis, Kroguard. It's opponents include the most uninformed people on these forums.

Even if you were right. You don't make a games ending so convoluted and unclear that only a minority of people 'got it' and the rest were left infuriated or confused. Its a bad writer who cannot present their ideas clearly and plainly to their reader.

That's a separate issue.  And, it depends on the target audience.  Clearly, BW did not write well for a certain audience.  Now they have to spend the summer doing work they should have done earlier, perhaps taking a hit to their reputation along the way.  The made the bed.  Now they lay in it.

No. Actually Bioware hacked off THE VERY AUDIENCE THEY WERE AIMING AT with their own ending. If you mean the sort of sci-fi geeks who read stuff into endings, they are the exact same people who have posted so much stuff on the interent and gotten so worked up over the ME ending. This isn't a large group of people who just would have prefered a more shoot em up Gears of War ending; a lot of the flak has come from the geek crowd.


They dug their own grave. Now they get to bury themselves in it.

Alothugh I would like to see how control pans out. Gets to says goodbye to Tali.  As a reaper!

Modifié par Mass effect 2 forever, 07 mai 2012 - 01:10 .

[paxbanana3915]

anorling wrote...


I reject synthesis mostly on the grounds of it being utter nonsense and an insult to players intelligence. The whole thing is just silly and unrealistic within the laws of the Mass Effect universe. Unrealistic in a bad writing kind of way.
And if the nonsense alone wasn't reason enough for me to reject it there is always the moral aspect.

Well put. I don't have enough disbelief (willing or not) to suspend for this ending to work in any way, shape, or form.

[nategator]

Well, to reference Ronald D Moore, it sounds like a large number of the fan base need some "technobabble" to accept whether Synthesis was a valid choice.

Which is, by the way, a totally fair request and will hopefully be in the EC if BW decides to keep that ending option. It may also be impossible to provide enough explanation to even give the majority of the fan community the ability to suspend belief.

But, to those fans that feel that way, I would argue that we should at least give BW a shot since there are many who feel that because of the ending, their entire Mass Effect experience was ruined and they cannot even go back and replay a game series they loved. That's a bad outcome for both them and Bioware.

Also, we should all keep in mind that BW's intent was for each of the three choices to still be a "correct" choice and provide material for interesting discussion and argument. Of course, that was a Mission Failure requiring BW to select the Retry option and some fans going with the Exit Game option.

And thanks to Kroguard for the kind words, I've really enjoyed participating in this thread.

Modifié par nategator, 07 mai 2012 - 01:18 .

[Mass effect 2 forever]

paxbanana3915 wrote...

anorling wrote...


I reject synthesis mostly on the grounds of it being utter nonsense and an insult to players intelligence. The whole thing is just silly and unrealistic within the laws of the Mass Effect universe. Unrealistic in a bad writing kind of way.
And if the nonsense alone wasn't reason enough for me to reject it there is always the moral aspect.

Well put. I don't have enough disbelief (willing or not) to suspend for this ending to work in any way, shape, or form.

Yeah. I think if in 40k you had it where the Emperor stood up from the throne and made a deal with chaos that if everybody became half-possesed and sythesised  with a daemon; thus resolving the warp/org problem. It MIGHT be more plausable at least in that setting.

[shadowreflexion]

 The biggest question that bothers me about synthesis is when the Catalyst tells me I can add my energy to it. I start thinking, how the hell is that going to work? Am I running on a different power source due to my implants? Then I wouldn't need oxygen really since my implants may magically produce its own. Or was that an indirect way of asking for my soul? Is that beam going to dissect me on the molecular level and then do a huge copy and pasting of my genetic code in order to bring about this change? I can't defend something or give support if the issue leaves you in the dark without knowing what it is.

[Mass effect 2 forever]

nategator wrote...

Well, to reference Ronald D Moore, it sounds like a large number of the fan base need some "technobabble" to accept whether Synthesis was a valid choice.

Which is, by the way, is a totally fair request and will hopefully be in the EC if BW decides to keep that ending option. It may also be impossible to provide enough explanation to even give the majority of the fan community the ability to suspend belief. 


Also, we should all keep in mind that BW's intent was for each of the three choices to still be a "correct" choice and provide material for interesting discussion and argument. Of course, that was a Mission Failure requiring BW to select the Retry option and some fans going with the Exit Game option.

Not technobabble.  There is a serious limit as to how much nonesense can be sprouted; you can only push something so far and synthesis pushed it off a cliff. For example, when writing 40k, the Black Library authors usually pull back from some of the more out there notions and have the advantage that the reader expects magical techno-sorcery every three seconds. But ME is not 40k and that just will not do. It really is beyond the scope of belief. Destruction and Control are okay.

If that was Biowares aim they manifestly failed. Most players felt they were being forced to do synthesis as the starchild was portrayed as the narrator. As a result most people have not distinguished Bioware definition of its own verse on the inevitable org/syn conflict and  just the starchild. Which was stupid and difficult because we had been told repeatedly to depsie and mistrust the reapers; as well as other episodes establishing that he was wrong.

[nategator]

shadowreflexion wrote...

 The biggest question that bothers me about synthesis is when the Catalyst tells me I can add my energy to it. I start thinking, how the hell is that going to work? Am I running on a different power source due to my implants? Then I wouldn't need oxygen really since my implants may magically produce its own. Or was that an indirect way of asking for my soul? Is that beam going to dissect me on the molecular level and then do a huge copy and pasting of my genetic code in order to bring about this change? I can't defend something or give support if the issue leaves you in the dark without knowing what it is.

Be careful what you wish for.  Some fans wanted explanation of why some people are force sensitive and others are not.  They got midi-chlorians.

[shadowreflexion]

nategator wrote...

shadowreflexion wrote...

 The biggest question that bothers me about synthesis is when the Catalyst tells me I can add my energy to it. I start thinking, how the hell is that going to work? Am I running on a different power source due to my implants? Then I wouldn't need oxygen really since my implants may magically produce its own. Or was that an indirect way of asking for my soul? Is that beam going to dissect me on the molecular level and then do a huge copy and pasting of my genetic code in order to bring about this change? I can't defend something or give support if the issue leaves you in the dark without knowing what it is.

Be careful what you wish for.  Some fans wanted explanation of why some people are force sensitive and others are not.  They got midi-chlorians.

True, so true. To any BW/EA staff lurking and reading these threads from a creepy corner grinning. I Do Not Want An Explanation for Synthesis. Just fix the game.

[SirBob1613]

Kroguard wrote...

Jere85 wrote...

We would have so many new races... the Refridgerators... the frigates.. Toaster ovens... and dont forget about Televisions.

Maybe somewhere in your mild criticism you forgot the proper spelling of refrigerator? 

Way to go correct how someone spells when they bring up that you have a toaster cousin now.