267 réponses à ce sujet

[Kaelthyn117]

i have one simple question, why are people even discussing the endings? i mean there is no point to even try to PROOVE, that Destruction isnt the best ending

why? because people are stubborn, and as we have seen by now most of the Mass Effect community dislikes the ending as a whole, no matter the choice. BUT if we go to which one people chose, its none of your damn business why they chose it LoL.

I looked at all the endings and actually thought about which one to take, it took me like 5 minutes to come up with several reasons for each ending.

On my first playthrough i ended up with Synthesis because of these things (before i heard about indoctrination theory):

1) Geth, which are by the end fully self aware and think like humans will be destroyed, hurting Quarian people if you ended the Geth/Quarian conflict with peace.

2) Organics eventually tend to destroy themselves, look at today, talking about 2012 the end of the world....

3) Synthesis is the final evolution of DNA, if you look at many aspects of our current lives. How much electronics do we use everyday? How long will it take for us to start creating robots and eventually by a mistake create Artificial Inteligences who think for themself?

So in the end, the ending everyone of us chose, is a personal decision of how we understand the things and whether or not we accept them....

Only thing which almost stopped me from Synthesis was ''Me'' dying, i mean Shepard dying.

[goofyomnivore]

The Crucible firing sequence suggests that the Citadel is destroyed in Synthesis, possibly with some ward arms broken off as a whole. It's the same scene as in Destroy except for the color. The Control scene is very different. I think we're safe from the Catalyst's influence because it is implied that it's gone.

I know that, but Patrick Weekes suggested it may not be destroyed and only damaged on his twitter or whatever. It could be nothing, but if EDI can survive in Destroy, I don't see why the Citadel cannot in Synthesis or even Destroy.

Modifié par strive, 07 mai 2012 - 03:34 .

[d-boy15]

well, I think in control and synthesis the citadel and relay shouldn't be destroy at all.

it's should be only in destroy instead of put the geth as hostage. for me, relay and citadel gone
are like symbol that there will be no compromise with the reaper which the other two choice you
just compromise with them.

Modifié par d-boy15, 07 mai 2012 - 03:38 .

[Mass effect 2 forever]

Kaelthyn117 wrote...




2) Organics eventually tend to destroy themselves, look at today, talking about 2012 the end of the world....


So in the end, the ending everyone of us chose, is a personal decision of how we understand the things and whether or not we accept them....
.

This is not 40k where everyone is damned to an eternal existence of war, hatred and nothing but the cries of blood thirsty gods in an uncaring galaxy.  ME repeatedly gave you hope.  But the catalyst, Bioware narrator actually tells you that, no, this universe is as bleak and grim as 40k and so we need magic to solve it.  

[Leafs43]

Overlord DLC attempts to merge organic and synthetic. Result: Disaster

Prothean cycle, Jahtii tried to merge with AI. Result: Disaster

Saren accepting "upgrades" from Sovereign. Result: Disaster

Sheperd accepting synthesis: Result: Puppies and rainbows

[shadowreflexion]

Leafs43 wrote...

Overlord DLC attempts to merge organic and synthetic. Result: Disaster

Prothean cycle, Jahtii tried to merge with AI. Result: Disaster

Saren accepting "upgrades" from Sovereign. Result: Disaster

Sheperd accepting synthesis: Result: Puppies and rainbows

Just have to point out that Overlord wasn't really about merging moreso than it was about communication. 

Everything else....True.

[Thornne]

Morale implications aside, being able to somehow synthesize all organic and non-organic life in the galaxy instantly is more than a little bit silly.

I think the green wave should have caused the Reapers to rupture and release trillions of swarmers, each of which attached to a being and synthesized them.

[SetecAstronomy]

Thornne wrote...

Morale implications aside, being able to somehow synthesize all organic and non-organic life in the galaxy instantly is more than a little bit silly.

I think the green wave should have caused the Reapers to rupture and release trillions of swarmers, each of which attached to a being and synthesized them.

 I like Synthesis, but THAT would be cool.

[Xandurpein]

OP and many others keep citing Overlord as an example of how synthetics will always try to destroy organics. This is ignoring the fact that Overlord was a merging of a human mind with an AI. It's more a cautionary example of the possible horrors that can come out of forceful Synthesis than a case for it.

[jeweledleah]

Xandurpein wrote...

OP and many others keep citing Overlord as an example of how synthetics will always try to destroy organics. This is ignoring the fact that Overlord was a merging of a human mind with an AI. It's more a cautionary example of the possible horrors that can come out of forceful Synthesis than a case for it.

not just merging of organic mind.  merging of an autistic person with many voices.  David wasn't trying to destroy organics.  he was just trying to silence the voices.  in fact... overloard is probably one of the best defences AGAISNT the synthesis

[frylock23]

nategator wrote...

frylock23 wrote...

Kroguard wrote...

paxbanana3915 wrote...

nategator wrote...

Bioware may have been trying to explain it like this: there is always a tension between fighting the "other": whether it be an other tribe, national, species, or type of life.  Notably, the first big galactic war in the present cycle was the war between the bipedal species and the arachnids.  Do you think it was an accident that the arachnids are one of the few species completely different from the bipedial norm?

(Do you mean the rachni? 'Cause I honestly don't mind squishing spiders.)

Coming from a society that celebrates diversity, I cannot stomach this. Saying that everything must be the same for peace hits the MORALLY-WRONG button in me. Certainly diversity can spark war and conflict. But what's the point of galactic peace if it's brought about by complete uniformity?

There is nothing in synthesis that suggests uniformity. Being a student in the medical field, you should know how DNA works. We share 96% similarity with chimps, yet many things separate us. Yet even with such genetic similarity, great diversity exists among individuals of both species. Being more genetically related does not imply uniformity and the ending cinematics clearly show this.

All righ then we come back to square one. If Synthesis doesn't enforce conformity for the sake of attempting to enforce understanding between organic and synthetic, what's the reason it must happen? Star Brat's logic implies that it must happen because otherwise one is utterly doomed to kill the other. Why? Again basic logic asserts that the root of all conflict is difference. If we're all still different after synthesis, then we're all still capable of wiping each other and hence all life out.

There is simply no point to it.

Because diversity does not always result in conflict.  Again, I can point to the asari forging a inter-species galactic civilization.  Its just as you increase diversity, conflict becomes more likely.  Starchild's viewpoint is that organic and synthetic life is too diverse that it always results in conflict and organic life loses.  Every time.  They tried to solve this problem by giving a childhood to organic life of 50k years and then imposing a reaper conformity before the synthetic life could develop enough to obliterate the species.  This solution proved to work for a very long time but ultimately was flawed.  So Starchild proposes a new solution that requires Shepard's sacrifice: allow greater diversity but provide a common element between organic and synthetic life.  You, as the player, can accept or reject this solution.  Bioware's intent was there to be no true answer on whether this solution was the "correct" one or not because there are no "correct" choices.  

Except after synthesis, there is not organic or synthetic anymore. They are all one which is neither. So, in the end, you have wiped out all organic life and all synthetic life in one fell swoop. What remains is neither kind of life but something else entirely.

If you can't destroy because you'll wipe out the Geth, then how can you choose synthesis? It wipes out everything and everyone.

And, you can say that Star Brat is providing a common element in synthesis, but that won't work either. As has been pointed out many times. Look how many common elements we share with chimpanzees, but that doesn't stop us from killing them for bush meat.

Commonality at a base pair level is not going to keep life from trying to eradicate itself.

BioWare needs to try again.

[Deltateam Elcor]

Considering its basically a cliché "playing god" choice, it doesnt even deserve to be argued about.

However, for the sake of it, i will say that as someone who likes diversity in everything, this disgusts me, not only does it confuse the entropic balance of the universe in ways i cannot fathom, it is simply wrong.

[111987]

Leafs43 wrote...

Overlord DLC attempts to merge organic and synthetic. Result: Disaster

Prothean cycle, Jahtii tried to merge with AI. Result: Disaster

Saren accepting "upgrades" from Sovereign. Result: Disaster

Sheperd accepting synthesis: Result: Puppies and rainbows

All the things you mentioned are irrelevant. Synthesis changes the very basic, fundamental nature of life in the galaxy, while the other ones are just implants (and Overlord has been discussed already).

[Necrotron]

Kroguard wrote...

 It was on my second playthrough where I chose synthesis. Many die-hard fans of the series see the synthesis ending as "immoral" and "disgusting" as it is akin to what Saren promoted. What makes destruction so much more moral?

Oh no, destruction is immoral too, just as Synthesis is, and my Shepard will never choose either.  Of course, choosing Control and trusting the creator of the Reapers for your information is foolhardy, so essentially that leaves nothing to pick, and my main gamesave still refuses to finish the game.

Modifié par Bathaius, 07 mai 2012 - 05:35 .

[Leafs43]

111987 wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

Overlord DLC attempts to merge organic and synthetic. Result: Disaster

Prothean cycle, Jahtii tried to merge with AI. Result: Disaster

Saren accepting "upgrades" from Sovereign. Result: Disaster

Sheperd accepting synthesis: Result: Puppies and rainbows

All the things you mentioned are irrelevant. Synthesis changes the very basic, fundamental nature of life in the galaxy, while the other ones are just implants (and Overlord has been discussed already).

Unless synthesis rewrites the laws of physics (which is impossible because the whole universe would have to be re-written), it doesn't change anything but make all organics hybrids.  Amino acids aren't going to suddenly become synthetic.  So other organics will develop.

[frylock23]

Bathaius wrote...

Kroguard wrote...

 It was on my second playthrough where I chose synthesis. Many die-hard fans of the series see the synthesis ending as "immoral" and "disgusting" as it is akin to what Saren promoted. What makes destruction so much more moral?

Oh no, destruction is immoral too, just as Synthesis is, and my Shepard will never choose either.  Of course, choosing Control and trusting the creator of the Reapers for your information is foolhardy, so essentially that leaves nothing to pick, and my main gamesave still refuses to finish the game.

Well, this pretty much. I only played through to the end the first time because I was convinced that it couldn't be that bad ... and yep, it was.

I am hoping the EC fixes things so that I can finish my playthroughs.

[vv238email]

111987 wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

Overlord DLC attempts to merge organic and synthetic. Result: Disaster

Prothean cycle, Jahtii tried to merge with AI. Result: Disaster

Saren accepting "upgrades" from Sovereign. Result: Disaster

Sheperd accepting synthesis: Result: Puppies and rainbows

All the things you mentioned are irrelevant. Synthesis changes the very basic, fundamental nature of life in the galaxy, while the other ones are just implants (and Overlord has been discussed already).

What is this fundamental change to life in the galaxy? From my limited knowledge of nature, diversity is the key to life's survival. Humans need plants and animals to live, animals need other animals or plants. Plants need nutrients that come from waste from other organic life.
Conflict is the key to organic evolution, the irony is that these diverse species need each other to survive.
Synthesis does what exactly, end conflict? Both organics and synthetics depend on conflict to progress so putting them together stops this how?
Evolution doesn't have a final stage, it is an ongoing process. To say there is a final evolution of life is ignorance to the point of insanity because it completely ignores the fundamental nature of life. That is conflict, without it nothing can exist.

[feliciano2040]

vv238email wrote...

Synthesis does what exactly, end conflict? Both organics and synthetics depend on conflict to progress so putting them together stops this how?
Evolution doesn't have a final stage, it is an ongoing process. To say there is a final evolution of life is ignorance to the point of insanity because it completely ignores the fundamental nature of life. That is conflict, without it nothing can exist.

There is a difference between struggle and violence.

Synthesis eliminates the gap between organics and synthetics and creates a new form of life, no longer will people kill each other simply because of misguided prejudice.

Seriously people who complain incessantly about Synthesis need to read a little Georg Hegel.

[KingZayd]

feliciano2040 wrote...

vv238email wrote...

Synthesis does what exactly, end conflict? Both organics and synthetics depend on conflict to progress so putting them together stops this how?
Evolution doesn't have a final stage, it is an ongoing process. To say there is a final evolution of life is ignorance to the point of insanity because it completely ignores the fundamental nature of life. That is conflict, without it nothing can exist.

There is a difference between struggle and violence.

Synthesis eliminates the gap between organics and synthetics and creates a new form of life, no longer will people kill each other simply because of misguided prejudice.

Seriously people who complain incessantly about Synthesis need to read a little Georg Hegel.

EDI and Joker look pretty different to each other from what I see. Liara looks different to both of them. I'm not sure how this eliminates prejudice from the universe?

[PsyrenY]

KingZayd wrote...

EDI and Joker look pretty different to each other from what I see. Liara looks different to both of them. I'm not sure how this eliminates prejudice from the universe?

It's the mental changes, not the physical, that matter. If Synthesis is to truly end the cycle as Starkid believe, it must provide organics with the mental abilities of AI.

For all his implants, EDI does not classify Shepard as transhuman, because his brain functions "are still organic." And this is a guy with nanotech in his muscles and bones, possible ocular implants or a biotic amp in his skull, and various tech holding his very seams together. So clearly it must go beyond the physical.

[feliciano2040]

KingZayd wrote...

EDI and Joker look pretty different to each other from what I see. Liara looks different to both of them. I'm not sure how this eliminates prejudice from the universe?

No one said it eliminates all prejudice, it simply removes the distinction between organics and synthetics, and thus, they have no inherent reason to hate each other, other than personal conflicts or specific differences.

Violence will never end, but the cycle of extinction can end, and that's what happens with Synthesis, and all without killing a single soul.

[vv238email]

feliciano2040 wrote...

vv238email wrote...

Synthesis does what exactly, end conflict? Both organics and synthetics depend on conflict to progress so putting them together stops this how?
Evolution doesn't have a final stage, it is an ongoing process. To say there is a final evolution of life is ignorance to the point of insanity because it completely ignores the fundamental nature of life. That is conflict, without it nothing can exist.

There is a difference between struggle and violence.

Synthesis eliminates the gap between organics and synthetics and creates a new form of life, no longer will people kill each other simply because of misguided prejudice.

Seriously people who complain incessantly about Synthesis need to read a little Georg Hegel.

The end to misguided prejudice, that line doesn't really ring true. In order for there to be no prejudice whatsoever, organics need to either be linked to multiple consciousness, like the Geth, or have the same consciousness.  In either case free will is destroyed.

I have read Hegel, his philosphies are contradictory. You can't reach "absolute knowledge" with individualism, which is stemmed from conflict and helps drive conflict.  Once you do reach "absolute knowledge" everyone percieves logic in the exact same way.  This leaves individuality intact how?

It is also worth noting that many of his ideas of freedom, civil society, and progress resmble with striking similarities the state of the country that he lived in, Prussia.

Optimystic_X wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

EDI and Joker look pretty different to each other from what I see. Liara looks different to both of them. I'm not sure how this eliminates prejudice from the universe?

It's the mental changes, not the physical, that matter. If Synthesis is to truly end the cycle as Starkid believe, it must provide organics with the mental abilities of AI.

For all his implants, EDI does not classify Shepard as transhuman, because his brain functions "are still organic." And this is a guy with nanotech in his muscles and bones, possible ocular implants or a biotic amp in his skull, and various tech holding his very seams together. So clearly it must go beyond the physical.

 
Remember the Geth from ME2? They still had prejudge against each other despite being exactly the same and even able to see each other's mental processes.  Legion points out that the heretics were essentially "spying" on the true Geth.

[feliciano2040]

vv238email wrote...

The end to misguided prejudice, that line doesn't really ring true. In order for there to be no prejudice whatsoever, organics need to either be linked to multiple consciousness, like the Geth, or have the same consciousness.  In either case free will is destroyed.

If it doesn't ring true to you, then tough luck friend, doesn't mean it's not true.

And how in the name of the almighty is free will destroyed ? Where in the game, and by the saint mother of all creation is such a thing even said ??!!!

vv238email wrote...

I have read Hegel, his philosphies are contradictory. You can't reach "absolute knowledge" with individualism, which is stemmed from conflict and helps drive conflict.  Once you do reach "absolute knowledge" everyone percieves logic in the exact same way.  This leaves individuality intact how?

It is also worth noting that many of his ideas of freedom, civil society, and progress resmble with striking similarities the state of the country that he lived in, Prussia.

What does all of this have to do with anything  ?

NO philosopher is right about everything, that doesn't mean their opinions are not valid.

The point I was trying to make is that Hegel's "conflict" hypothesis is at work with the ending:

Thesis: Organics are the ones who have the right to live.

Anti-thesis: Synthetics are the ones who have the right to live.

Synthesis: Everyone has the right to live.

vv238email wrote...

Remember the Geth from ME2? They still had prejudge against each other despite being exactly the same and even able to see each other's mental processes.  Legion points out that the heretics were essentially "spying" on the true Geth.

No one is saying violence and prejudice won't end, but with synthesis, organics and synthetics won't have any reason to hate each other because they are all, in essence, the same.

Modifié par feliciano2040, 07 mai 2012 - 06:42 .

[vv238email]

My point is that as long as you allow free will there will also be prejudice. Always. It is in the nature of organics to be prejudiced, its how we survive.
Saying that making everyone the same is the only way to end violence is racist beyond all belief and not even true.

[Demoiselle]

I just don't get how people go from Sarens insane plan to Synthesis being 'Exactly what Saren wanted'.

As everyones favourite sharpshooter put best:
"Except the part about the slaves. And the indoctrination. And destroying the galaxy." - Garrus Vakarian

Modifié par Demoiselle, 07 mai 2012 - 07:05 .