Hello. If anyone is interested I did a blog post about this that takes as its starting point the discussion between Bastal and David Gaider about whether or not Dragon Age II properly caters to straight male gamers. There are vague plot-related spoilers in the post. Thanks for your attention!
http://jall8.wordpre...game-companies/
Gamer Rights and Game Companies
Débuté par
Sgtwitter
, mai 06 2012 10:21
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#2
Posté 07 mai 2012 - 04:32
brushyourteeth
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This was a really well written blog - thanks for sharing it. 
It's interesting that you maintained a neutral stance on player rights, since I'm sure you actually have your own opinion. I'd be interested to hear it!
I think player's rights are pretty limited, as they should be. Players have the right to buy a game or not buy a game. They have the right to love a game they've played, or hate it. They have the right to critique it or make suggestions. They have the right to write a good or bad review. They have the right to try to make something better.
But a player's rights do not extend so far that they are allowed to demand that the developers change something according to their personal preferences. Just because I want it done one way doesn't make it so, and just because others agree with me doesn't necessarily make us right (we've all experienced that discussion where 30 people disagree with you but you just *know* that they're wrong). We can and should make suggestions and provide feedback. But there is a problem with the sense of entitlement that some gamers have. Yes, you just paid 60 bucks of your hard earned money for that game. Now you have the right to do with it as you please. If Bioware is smart (and I think they are) they will listen to your feedback, and take every bit of it with a grain of salt. If Bioware delivers something terrible, you have the right to be dissatisfied, but there are just too many of us for them to bow to everyone's whims.
I see this attitude a lot from fellow gamers and think WTF. Things like "I'm not going to buy DAIII no matter what they do at this point." - so why are you hanging out in the DA forums making demands? Why should Bioware make any changes that cater to you, when they have loyal fans who are giving them constructive feedback instead?
It's interesting that you maintained a neutral stance on player rights, since I'm sure you actually have your own opinion. I'd be interested to hear it!
I think player's rights are pretty limited, as they should be. Players have the right to buy a game or not buy a game. They have the right to love a game they've played, or hate it. They have the right to critique it or make suggestions. They have the right to write a good or bad review. They have the right to try to make something better.
But a player's rights do not extend so far that they are allowed to demand that the developers change something according to their personal preferences. Just because I want it done one way doesn't make it so, and just because others agree with me doesn't necessarily make us right (we've all experienced that discussion where 30 people disagree with you but you just *know* that they're wrong). We can and should make suggestions and provide feedback. But there is a problem with the sense of entitlement that some gamers have. Yes, you just paid 60 bucks of your hard earned money for that game. Now you have the right to do with it as you please. If Bioware is smart (and I think they are) they will listen to your feedback, and take every bit of it with a grain of salt. If Bioware delivers something terrible, you have the right to be dissatisfied, but there are just too many of us for them to bow to everyone's whims.
I see this attitude a lot from fellow gamers and think WTF. Things like "I'm not going to buy DAIII no matter what they do at this point." - so why are you hanging out in the DA forums making demands? Why should Bioware make any changes that cater to you, when they have loyal fans who are giving them constructive feedback instead?
#3
Posté 07 mai 2012 - 07:14
Reznore57
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I don't think player have much "rights" , except voicing their opinion and buy or not the product.
Now the whole ME3 debacle put things in some other perspective for me.
I usually don't get much angry but I really don't like some of the things that have been happening.
Bioware ,when a game is realised , tend to act differently ,I understand that PR talking is a shield from bad publicity , and release time can be a win or loose thing as far as the sell goes.
Overall , they're pretty nice people that tried to keep in touch with their fanbase , and i enjoy that.
I also understand that sometimes forum and internet are an unfair warzone.
I think it goes both ways , fans cross the line and Bioware sometimes break that constructive dialogue with things like "artistic integrity" as an anwer to everything.
Then the press feed on the buzz , and everything gets ugly and disapointing for both side.
And I think lately they should try to sell their game differently,I felt Dragon Age 2 was not sold as what it really was.( and didn't have a good marketing going on neither)
And for ME3 , we've been fed a bunch of lies about certain aspect of the game, maybe at the times it wasn't lies ,just what they thought the product might be , but it's a bad move , because it placed fans expectation in some places that have been denied.
Sorry , i was ranting and not really the subjet of the blog ...
Anyway , I'm not a male player and i think in the years to come the whole" create game for this special audience of white male straight "has to change a bit (nothing about you guys , but you're not the only one on the planet that enjoys video games^^)
It has to for different reasons , I think Video games have became a pretty common thing and more different type of people have acess to it.
Dragon age is game that have different appeal , combat , story ,bit of RP etc .The way i enjoy it is almost the same as i would with a book .For me it has a story to tell , and I do believe stories should be able to touch a wide audience and give key for people to relate to it.
That why we have characters that tend to be build from archetypes , it makes it on the suface easier to understand or have a general idea.
Different archetype are supposed to appeal to different people.Like one might say the bad ass barbarian will appeal to men ,the pretty princess will please woman.
Except i think the writer from DA take that "blueprint " of character and give it a different flavor.
Like Isabella , people tend to think that woman with a busy sexual life , or wearing sexy thing are dumb or have no self esteem etc...
So they gave her that character that at first might look like a "boy toy" and later you find out that's hardly the case .
What the "male audience " should understand is if you're always fed what you want ,you're never gonna open up to new idea /influence.It's boring and unchallenging.
And I don't even think man always want to be stuck in boring stereotype , neither do woman (or straight/bi/gay people for that matter)
As for all bi thing , it's been overtalked ...some complains it cheapens the character personality that they don't have a clearly define sexuality.I think it's up for the writers to decide if it's something that keep them from delivering characters as they see fit.
For all the rest "Omg my buddy smooth talked me, Kill him with FIre!" "Omg my knight in shining armor might have had a relashionship with another guy ,I don't think he is enough manly for me anymore!.."
It's just a bunch of people that feel threated from virtual character sexuality ...I don't know if it's something to cry or laugh about.
And usually Woman with another woman is fairly accepted for whatever reason.
I don't think all of this , the way the DA team handle their characters or romances ,is something they absolutely have to do.
But i tend to think they enjoy doing things like that .I do believe adding touch of diversity is way more funny for everyone.
Now the whole ME3 debacle put things in some other perspective for me.
I usually don't get much angry but I really don't like some of the things that have been happening.
Bioware ,when a game is realised , tend to act differently ,I understand that PR talking is a shield from bad publicity , and release time can be a win or loose thing as far as the sell goes.
Overall , they're pretty nice people that tried to keep in touch with their fanbase , and i enjoy that.
I also understand that sometimes forum and internet are an unfair warzone.
I think it goes both ways , fans cross the line and Bioware sometimes break that constructive dialogue with things like "artistic integrity" as an anwer to everything.
Then the press feed on the buzz , and everything gets ugly and disapointing for both side.
And I think lately they should try to sell their game differently,I felt Dragon Age 2 was not sold as what it really was.( and didn't have a good marketing going on neither)
And for ME3 , we've been fed a bunch of lies about certain aspect of the game, maybe at the times it wasn't lies ,just what they thought the product might be , but it's a bad move , because it placed fans expectation in some places that have been denied.
Sorry , i was ranting and not really the subjet of the blog ...
Anyway , I'm not a male player and i think in the years to come the whole" create game for this special audience of white male straight "has to change a bit (nothing about you guys , but you're not the only one on the planet that enjoys video games^^)
It has to for different reasons , I think Video games have became a pretty common thing and more different type of people have acess to it.
Dragon age is game that have different appeal , combat , story ,bit of RP etc .The way i enjoy it is almost the same as i would with a book .For me it has a story to tell , and I do believe stories should be able to touch a wide audience and give key for people to relate to it.
That why we have characters that tend to be build from archetypes , it makes it on the suface easier to understand or have a general idea.
Different archetype are supposed to appeal to different people.Like one might say the bad ass barbarian will appeal to men ,the pretty princess will please woman.
Except i think the writer from DA take that "blueprint " of character and give it a different flavor.
Like Isabella , people tend to think that woman with a busy sexual life , or wearing sexy thing are dumb or have no self esteem etc...
So they gave her that character that at first might look like a "boy toy" and later you find out that's hardly the case .
What the "male audience " should understand is if you're always fed what you want ,you're never gonna open up to new idea /influence.It's boring and unchallenging.
And I don't even think man always want to be stuck in boring stereotype , neither do woman (or straight/bi/gay people for that matter)
As for all bi thing , it's been overtalked ...some complains it cheapens the character personality that they don't have a clearly define sexuality.I think it's up for the writers to decide if it's something that keep them from delivering characters as they see fit.
For all the rest "Omg my buddy smooth talked me, Kill him with FIre!" "Omg my knight in shining armor might have had a relashionship with another guy ,I don't think he is enough manly for me anymore!.."
It's just a bunch of people that feel threated from virtual character sexuality ...I don't know if it's something to cry or laugh about.
And usually Woman with another woman is fairly accepted for whatever reason.
I don't think all of this , the way the DA team handle their characters or romances ,is something they absolutely have to do.
But i tend to think they enjoy doing things like that .I do believe adding touch of diversity is way more funny for everyone.
#4
Posté 07 mai 2012 - 10:39
Sgtwitter
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I try to keep my blog posts short since the target audience is my own ADD generation. Thanks for your responses which give me a chance to flesh out my ideas a little more.
I actually haven't thought too much about gamer rights (perhaps "rights" has been the wrong word all along) beyond the notion that MMORPGs are surely the place where such a thing is evolving in the most interesting of ways. The time and energy investment by gamers in those situations is quite astounding, especially for competitive raiders and pvp-ers for whom different avenues of sponsorship are beginning to emerge and for whom some small programming glitch or "legal" decision (WoW players may know of multiple DREAM Paragon members getting banned after the first week of the current raiding tier, for example) can have significant consequences.
Reznore57 I find your idea that "in the years to come the whole 'create game for this special audience of white male straight' has to change a bit" fascinating, but would add that it perhaps already has changed a lot (and that DAII represents a kind of watershed moment in this). The way people physically and emotionally relate to members of both the same and the opposite sex is changing with great rapidity, and it is only natural that game design should reflect this (though this does not, imo, take away from the courage of DAs team with regards to their position on sexual equality).
The Mass Effect series is particularly fascinating in this regard seeing as M/M options open up only in the 3rd game; experiencing such could potentially be quite remarkable for the gay male gamer who has resisted the advances of the female NPCs in the first two games over a period of many years (at least I'm hoping so - I'm yet to play ME3 so no spoilers please!)
A question for thought in case anyone is interesting in continuing this discussion. Doesn't it seem like DAII actually caters pretty badly to the straight female gamer? There really isn't any Alistair or Kaidan equivalent except for Sebastian who is rather underwritten.
I actually haven't thought too much about gamer rights (perhaps "rights" has been the wrong word all along) beyond the notion that MMORPGs are surely the place where such a thing is evolving in the most interesting of ways. The time and energy investment by gamers in those situations is quite astounding, especially for competitive raiders and pvp-ers for whom different avenues of sponsorship are beginning to emerge and for whom some small programming glitch or "legal" decision (WoW players may know of multiple DREAM Paragon members getting banned after the first week of the current raiding tier, for example) can have significant consequences.
Reznore57 I find your idea that "in the years to come the whole 'create game for this special audience of white male straight' has to change a bit" fascinating, but would add that it perhaps already has changed a lot (and that DAII represents a kind of watershed moment in this). The way people physically and emotionally relate to members of both the same and the opposite sex is changing with great rapidity, and it is only natural that game design should reflect this (though this does not, imo, take away from the courage of DAs team with regards to their position on sexual equality).
The Mass Effect series is particularly fascinating in this regard seeing as M/M options open up only in the 3rd game; experiencing such could potentially be quite remarkable for the gay male gamer who has resisted the advances of the female NPCs in the first two games over a period of many years (at least I'm hoping so - I'm yet to play ME3 so no spoilers please!)
A question for thought in case anyone is interesting in continuing this discussion. Doesn't it seem like DAII actually caters pretty badly to the straight female gamer? There really isn't any Alistair or Kaidan equivalent except for Sebastian who is rather underwritten.
#5
Posté 07 mai 2012 - 11:18
In Exile
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It's likely a reflection of my trade, but "right" isn't the right word (so to speak) because a right in the technical sense is an entitlement to a certain kind of outcome. At least when I've seen "gamer's rights" come up at all, it's been in the context of consumer rights for gamers.
The idea that games can play a positive social role, I think, is right on the money. I actually thought it was pretty hilarious that the whole exchange in that post basically was "I am a person from a position of privilege. I no longer receive the same preferential treatment as before; I should get it back!" and the response was "WTF? No."
I think there's a danger with comments like these, though:
We need to see characters as more than just being instrumental. A character like Anders (or Kaiden) shouldn't be significant because of orientation.
The idea that games can play a positive social role, I think, is right on the money. I actually thought it was pretty hilarious that the whole exchange in that post basically was "I am a person from a position of privilege. I no longer receive the same preferential treatment as before; I should get it back!" and the response was "WTF? No."
I think there's a danger with comments like these, though:
A question for thought in case anyone is interesting in continuing this discussion. Doesn't it seem like DAII actually caters pretty badly to the straight female gamer? There really isn't any Alistair or Kaidan equivalent except for Sebastian who is rather underwritten.
We need to see characters as more than just being instrumental. A character like Anders (or Kaiden) shouldn't be significant because of orientation.
#6
Posté 07 mai 2012 - 11:44
Reznore57
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Actually , I never like Kaidan , too bland.(did slept with him in Me1 ,he was hot and i had nothing better to do 
, was a pain in ME3 , since for whatever reason i couldn't break up with him for what seemed an eternity )Garrus was an highlight romance in ME3 , at least for me.( awful romance in ME2 , pretty much because Fshep is as subtle as an elephant)
Alistair was my first romance in a video game , and i think he fits perfectly the role.There's alot of innocence about his view on love.
For DA2 , i romanced Fenris , wasn't attract by elves but I heard his voice and gave in( i do believe the voice actor play a role , must run hormones crazy or something^^)
I hated the rivalmance , and learn to appreciate the friendromance.It's a gratifying romance in the end.
But a frustrating one during the game.
As for Anders , he had his charms but his arc in DA2 and the place where he ends up makes me avoid him.I do appreciate him as a friend .
I tried romancing Isabella recently (as a male character ) and it's the romance I enjoy the most.
Maybe because Hawke goes thru a lot of pain during the game , I don't know , and she brings some light , levity and fun in.She was a charming breeze of fresh air .
In my firstplaythru , as i was battling with the Fenris rivalmance , I slept with Zevran.You know this funny open guy comes along when everything falls apart...Let's go have some funny and mindless sex behind bushes , I'm game!
So i don't think Anders or Fenris were bad romances , the guy battling with inners demon does have appeal on woman (or man) just in a 10 years span with hardly anything joyful happening , chances are it will run on my nerves.
One thing I do hope the bi romance will do is giving to players non stereotypical romance choices.
You know the knight for the girls , the beautiful fangirl of the hero for the boys ,and volage person for gay or bi people.
I'm not saying stereotype are wrong if well written just I guess a lot of gay men might want some romantic moment and have a chance with the knight in shining armor too.
, was a pain in ME3 , since for whatever reason i couldn't break up with him for what seemed an eternity )Garrus was an highlight romance in ME3 , at least for me.( awful romance in ME2 , pretty much because Fshep is as subtle as an elephant)Alistair was my first romance in a video game , and i think he fits perfectly the role.There's alot of innocence about his view on love.
For DA2 , i romanced Fenris , wasn't attract by elves but I heard his voice and gave in( i do believe the voice actor play a role , must run hormones crazy or something^^)
I hated the rivalmance , and learn to appreciate the friendromance.It's a gratifying romance in the end.
But a frustrating one during the game.
As for Anders , he had his charms but his arc in DA2 and the place where he ends up makes me avoid him.I do appreciate him as a friend .
I tried romancing Isabella recently (as a male character ) and it's the romance I enjoy the most.
Maybe because Hawke goes thru a lot of pain during the game , I don't know , and she brings some light , levity and fun in.She was a charming breeze of fresh air .
In my firstplaythru , as i was battling with the Fenris rivalmance , I slept with Zevran.You know this funny open guy comes along when everything falls apart...Let's go have some funny and mindless sex behind bushes , I'm game!
So i don't think Anders or Fenris were bad romances , the guy battling with inners demon does have appeal on woman (or man) just in a 10 years span with hardly anything joyful happening , chances are it will run on my nerves.
One thing I do hope the bi romance will do is giving to players non stereotypical romance choices.
You know the knight for the girls , the beautiful fangirl of the hero for the boys ,and volage person for gay or bi people.
I'm not saying stereotype are wrong if well written just I guess a lot of gay men might want some romantic moment and have a chance with the knight in shining armor too.
#7
Posté 08 mai 2012 - 12:27
Shadow of Light Dragon
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The game allows me to roleplay. It might not let me do every conceivable PC template I can devise, but what RPG does?
While I dislike the PC-sexual turn romances have taken for reasons of characterisation, I disagree that romances are even necessary in order to cater ro male or female players. They are an optional feature of DA2, nothing more.
The 'straight male gamer' seems to get his undies in a twist every time something threatens to take him out of his comfort zone. I can imagine the outcry if they were put in a rape situation similar to what the female city elf went through. Or is that what they thought Zevran did?
While I dislike the PC-sexual turn romances have taken for reasons of characterisation, I disagree that romances are even necessary in order to cater ro male or female players. They are an optional feature of DA2, nothing more.
The 'straight male gamer' seems to get his undies in a twist every time something threatens to take him out of his comfort zone. I can imagine the outcry if they were put in a rape situation similar to what the female city elf went through. Or is that what they thought Zevran did?
#8
Guest_sjpelkessjpeler_*
Posté 08 mai 2012 - 12:38
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@brushyourteeth
Nothing to add to your reply.
I can only say I agree on what you say: players decide if they buy/play a game or not and on a forum like BSN they can only express how they feel about a game (good or bad) and hope that their wishes come true in the next installment.
Nothing to add to your reply.
I can only say I agree on what you say: players decide if they buy/play a game or not and on a forum like BSN they can only express how they feel about a game (good or bad) and hope that their wishes come true in the next installment.
#9
Guest_Faerunner_*
Posté 08 mai 2012 - 07:54
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Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
The 'straight male gamer' seems to get his undies in a twist every time something threatens to take him out of his comfort zone. I can imagine the outcry if they were put in a rape situation similar to what the female city elf went through. Or is that what they thought Zevran did?
You would think that's what happened, considering some of the violent backlash against both Zevran and Anders for daring to hit on a male character without being solicited. There's discomfort and then there's making a mountain out of a mole hill.
Modifié par Faerunner, 08 mai 2012 - 07:56 .
#10
Posté 08 mai 2012 - 01:56
Sgtwitter
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In Exile: While I agree that "We need to see characters as more than just being instrumental," I also believe we need to avoid granting them too much aesthetic autonomy. Which is to say, it won't do to simply ignore the perspective of the game designers / writers or to ignore the thought processes behind their crafting the game.
Reznore57: So interested in your comment on Fenris' voice! It seems to me that games like DAII refocus our attention on the role of voice in sexual / romantic attraction.
Reznore57: So interested in your comment on Fenris' voice! It seems to me that games like DAII refocus our attention on the role of voice in sexual / romantic attraction.
#11
Posté 08 mai 2012 - 04:20
nightscrawl
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I read your blog. Frankly, nothing convinced me that many gamers (notice I don't say all, or even most) aren't a bunch of whiny, self-entitled brats that think that because they forked over a few dozen dollars they can dictate to a company. Yes, as a consumer, I think we have the right to fair and truthful advertising that will help us make an informed decision on whether or not to buy a product. We have the right to a free market so we can make a real choice, instead of living with a monopoly where there is no choice. We also have the right, as with MMOs like World of Warcraft, to not be harassed by other players when we play the game. And that's pretty much it.Sgtwitter wrote...
Hello. If anyone is interested I did a blog post about this that takes as its starting point the discussion between Bastal and David Gaider about whether or not Dragon Age II properly caters to straight male gamers. There are vague plot-related spoilers in the post. Thanks for your attention!
http://jall8.wordpre...game-companies/
Some people, perhaps like the aforementioned "straight male gamer" author of that original post, might have felt that he should have been informed of the mere possibility of a homosexual relationship in the game's advertising, so he could make the informed decision to not buy the game. Bioware obviously felt otherwise about what the selling points of its game should be. In other instances, you will find thread after thread decrying Bioware's advertising of ME3 as false, and accusations of outright lying when it comes to the value of multi-player and its importance to the single-player campaign. There are even threads purporting to prove, through datamining, that it is statistically impossible to achieve the right amount of points without playing multi -- that is how furious those people are.
In those cases it's a stretch to say that the opinions of a bigot are the same as misleading people about a significant feature, indeed a selling point, of your game.
As far as online harassment goes the severity and legitimacy of each claim has to be taken into consideration. It's not harassment if someone kills you on a PVP server, or if they are faster than you when gathering nodes (mine/herb), or if some jerk player kills your rare hunter pet while you are taming it, or if someone continually marks down their auctions by 1c while you are selling the same items. On the other hand, things like repeated whisperings, switching of characters/accounts to do the same bypassing ignore, various sexual harassments, and other such things ARE legitimate. The companies have to set their own rules because if they don't players will just abuse the system.
Honestly, other than those things, I don't see how we could have any so-called "rights". Our right as a consumer is to protest by using our money. If some of the users on this forum who have cried foul at Bioware for DA2 and ME3 actually stick with their claim to "never buy another EA/Bioware game again" that is their right as a consumer.
Modifié par nightscrawl, 08 mai 2012 - 04:22 .
#12
Posté 08 mai 2012 - 04:50
nightscrawl
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This reads as if you think straight males will only like a game if there is a character like them in it. To be fair regarding Sebastian, while there are no male options for flirting and such, it's only half a romance anyway.Sgtwitter wrote...
A question for thought in case anyone is interesting in continuing this discussion. Doesn't it seem like DAII actually caters pretty badly to the straight female gamer? There really isn't any Alistair or Kaidan equivalent except for Sebastian who is rather underwritten.
While I don't think that DA2 does this, even if it did cater "pretty badly to the straight female gamer," so what? The market is flooded with testosterone pumping games of all sorts. Is it really so bad to have the opposite game? I really can't understand this line of thinking. People of the majority group feel so threatened when even a smidgin of their pedestal is chipped away, even though it leaves them so far above and beyond anyone else as to be barely noticable.
At any rate, the sexuality issue has a high potential of derailing your thread as it's very easy to get into arguments regarding the sexuality of the romance NPCs, and opinions very widely on them. There are already several threads about it.
Modifié par nightscrawl, 08 mai 2012 - 04:51 .
#13
Posté 08 mai 2012 - 05:56
brushyourteeth
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Sgtwitter wrote...
A question for thought in case anyone is interesting in continuing this discussion. Doesn't it seem like DAII actually caters pretty badly to the straight female gamer? There really isn't any Alistair or Kaidan equivalent except for Sebastian who is rather underwritten.
Well the straight female gamer frankly gets much more consideration from Bioware than they're used to.
At least in the genre of action or rpg (although there are some exceptions).Really, speaking as just one of many straight female gamers, I felt like all the romances in DAII did a generally poor job of suiting anyone when compared to the depth of writing that went into DA:O (I'm familiar with the female romances from watching my husband play). I can't say that I blame cross-gender inclusion for any of that (I imagine that gay romances don't differ too much from straight ones either in-game or IRL) - just time and resources spent on other aspects of the game.
Though whether I'm speaking as a "minority" player or not, I don't feel like I have the right to demand that Bioware cater to my own wishes over anyone else's. Nor would I appreciate anyone else trying to bogart their preferences into a game that only they will be able to enjoy.
Modifié par brushyourteeth, 08 mai 2012 - 05:58 .
