177 réponses à ce sujet

[Das Tentakel]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Das Tentakel wrote...

*snip*

I see. Thanks!

Okay, that allows me to make a better post on everything.

You’re welcome. Of course, as that artist pointed out himself, there is no commonly accepted vocabulary, so confusion regarding what ‘art style’ means will continue. But he was pretty clear what he means by it, and it his definition is actually very useful in analysing what is ‘off’ in DA’s visual design, and why.

Hoorayforicecream posted another definition. I would call that one more ‘design principles’, and they did play around with that in DA2. For instance, animal/plant motifs and ‘natural’ lines for the Elves, and these are a bit more in evidence. Hence, ‘animalization’ of the Elf heads, bare feet (even when it doesn’t make sense and is actually pretty unwise, something Merrill’s complaints seem to suggest the writers realised J), more ‘flowing lines’ for the aravels (which were ruined because they looked like theatrical props), etc.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

*snippity-snap*

What I am seeing in those Elf-pictures is the ‘design principles’ at work, but not equally to the same extent or with the same level of competence. Some of the faces are simply human but with slightly odd noses (Orsino, for instance). Other faces are a bit weird and plasticky, way too featureless (apart from the nose). The ‘felinized’ eyes sometimes work, sometimes they don’t. If I had to guess why much of it looks ‘off’, I think it has to do with the head/neck proportions, the location of the ears, the oddly similar and slightly weird noses.
The problem is that the human face is the standard, and the Elves are based on that. Playing around with that runs the risk of getting it wrong, and it probably requires a lot of work to get something that looks both distinctive and attractive.
Your mileage may vary of course - some people have a greater tolerance for 'off-looking' faces and odd proportions than others.

Elves in most games, whatever the type, are essentially slim beautiful humans. Go beyond that (and perhaps long pointy ears), and you easily run into the ‘something’s wrong’ syndrome. It took Bethesda three attempts (Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim) to get the Dunmer more or less ‘right’ as the angular, distinctively non-human race they were meant to be.
The one obviously non-human yet human-looking race in WoW, the Draenei, kept more or less normal human faces (with stuff tacked on), with a limited number of pre-created faces.
I wouldn’t be surprised if stuff like this will mean that we won’t be able to choose race in DA3 – too much work to get the face editor for Elves ‘right’.

[Shevy]

Only the Qunari looked better in DA II. Everything else is way superior in Origins, especially the Darkspawn. Can't tell you how much I detest their new look. Miles away form being frigthening and pestilent. One only has to compare the Ostagar cinematic with the new Darkspawn cinematics.

Modifié par Shevy_001, 08 mai 2012 - 02:21 .

[GhostV9]

I'd really like something realistic instead of whatever DA2 was.

[Ryuukishi]

Yes, prefer the new style in Dragon Age II, especially the redesigned elves.

[Sutekh]

Begemotka wrote...

Whereas DA2 gave us...the Navi,but with less attractive physique...

Or they didn't.

This is Fenarel, an elf of the good looking category:



Compare with the Na'vi. The only thing they have in common is the nose bridge. Not even the whole nose, just the bridge. The Na'vi nose itself it a lion nose. The ears are implanted higher and are more vertical. The cheekbones are much wider. The mouth is thicker. Overall, and above all, Na'vi have a very feline feel which elves absolutely don't. One common point isn't enough for similarity, or you could also say the elves look like vulcans, or bajorans or whatever alien species has slightly non human features.

As much as I do prefer DAO elves, DA2's, when properly done, aren't that bad. We don't need yet another High Elves Tolkien fantasy, because there's already plenty of those. And I'm sure that if we'd had the new look back in DAO, we wouldn't be that upset about it. Fact is, we're used to it, some of us even played elves, so we have that image of "how it should be", and change isn't always easy to accept. And then, of course, there's personal taste, which isn't debatable.

This said, body proportions and posture need some serious tweaking. More variety in facial features wouldn't hurt either.

[Uccio]

DAO visuals are generally better, DA2 is too cartoonish, bright/candy and anime. And before anime fans jump out to claim its not anime I just say, its anime to me. Thats all what counts.

Something about both games, good and bad:

- Qunari in DA2, good, they look more intimidating than in Origins. But need more variations, too many clones.

- Elves in DA2, good. Slightly better than in DAO though some of them looked quite hidious. Needs more work. Some of them reminded me of the little critter sitting in the curve of Jabba the Hut´s tail. Not good.

- Darkspawn in DAO, good, the overall dark colours, beast like appearance and that bellowing laughter "har har har" were really good. In DA2 they really went for the clownspawn look. Just felt like I was killing clowns on drugs. Also reminded me of LoTR goblins how they moved in a crouched position.

- Armors and weapons in DAO, good. More realistic than in DA2. No need to point out how little variation there were between different armors and weapons, they were still better. In DA2 they went for the anime/Wow which I truly hate. The Champion armor looked like something Mad Hatter could come up with, like a hobos wet dream. Only trolly full of empty cans was missing. no spikes and no weapons two times the size of a man. Plus what Jimmy said (below), look for the Witcher 2 for models, realistic and cool.

- Male faces in DA2, good. In DAO they were too "bony"/slim and could not be modified enough.

- Flemeth in DAO, good. In DA2 she was again another anime wet dream with a bust of a 20 year old, filled with silicon.

Something new would be a possibility to change height and width of the character like someone suggested.

Modifié par Ukki, 08 mai 2012 - 08:44 .

[JimmyTheProthean]

im digging a Witcher 2 style Graphic Dragon age!.

[Silfren]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

I'm fine with overall meshes/geometry/polygon design. I like default Female PC design. Marian Hawke look appealing and delicious. I dislike DAO brown environment lighting and lack of detail shadows. DA2 uses cleaner white lighting but the texture look way too colorful and plain to be realistic.Adding more gamma doesn't help. It needs more specular or ambient lightning.

I dislike DA2's Elf design. They look more like Gray Alients than the beautiful mystical elves I had known in fairy tale books,If they're not interested with traditional beautiful looking small pointed ear figure then they better called the elves something else. Gray Foresters perhaps?.

Anyway, art design is not a deal breaker to me although I tend to appreciate photo realistic cartoon than color palette and plain texture cartoon. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I guess...

They'd better? 

Why should Bioware not break the mold when it comes to elves?  What law is there that all stories involving elves should always and ever ONLY follow one model?  

Why should Bioware not make a stab at originality?  Why is it required that elves can only be depicted according to one model, else they should not even be called elves?

Appreciating one given expression of an archetype over all other depictions of it is one thing.  Requiring that nobody ever deviate from that model is quite another.  

Because Elf is very popular mythical creature. Elves exist in folklore recorded through out the history of mankind. Elves as mythical creature exist everywhere. From Scandinavia to Africa. Each folklore has different description of elves. But they're generally described as small beautiful creature of the forest with pointed ears. No one knows who created the elves.  Elves exist long before Tolkien and Avatars. 

Tolkien change that. Avatar change that even further. In the end,, what do we get? A popular mythical creature turn to sci-fi alien species with human skin and pointed ears.

Like I said, if you're not interested with the original elves. Then create your own modern day species like the Qunari. Otherwise, you only ruin the image of the elves as we have known. 

The Elves you refer to originated within one, and only one, culture.  Anglo-Saxon, if I recall correctly.  When the elves of Anglo-Saxon mythology show up elsewhere in other cultures, they do so as an import from their originating cultural mythos.  It is not true that elves cropped up simultaneously all over the earth's different people's and just happened to all be very similar in their appearance, etc.  I do not believe for an instant, for one thing, that Africa has elven beings in any of its mythologies.  It may have its own mythical beings, but they won't be elves.  Elves stem from a singular, specific cultural milieu and where they show up elsewhere it is when other cultures have absorbed that culture's traditions.  It is that mythological framework from which Tolkien derived his ideas, and his ideas were more in line with the original concept--that of tall, humanoid creatures.  The depiction of elves as small and pointy-eared is the new concept, not the original one.

This is not to day that beings called elves haven't shown up, but these are different from the pagan mythological framework were "Elf" was first seen as a mythical being.  I assume you are aware of modern cultural renderings of elves as Santa's helpers, in which they are portrayed as everything from human-like adults with pointy ears, to eternal children, to creatures varying between just a few inches in height to no more than a couple of feet.  I also assume you are aware of the Drow concept, evil, black- or indigo-skinned elves that show up in various RPG campaigns and books.  Or the quaint, short beings claimed to be of Irish origin and often construed as being synonymous with fairies.  

Since we do actually have quite a few different modern variations of elves, you cannot claim that there is only one right and proper way for them to be depicted.  There isn't one and there never has been. 

Why are you even bringing up Avatar?  Yes, I'm aware that Bioware apparently borrowed the design for its elves, but nowhere have I ever seen anyone claim that the feline creatures of Avatar were Elves, not by the moviemakers or any fans or haters of the movie.  The only one claiming that Avatar's blue aliens are elves is you.

[Das Tentakel]

Begemotka wrote...
I agree that the DA2 elves are not exact copies of the Na`vi. However,when I first saw them,I was immediately reminded of those blue feline-like folks. For me,they had a feline feel. And Fenarel does,too.
Again,as you yourself pointed out,it is only my impression,and others might not have made a similar connection.
(The fact that I am a complete cat person and own a cat might contribute to my biased associations{smilie}).

{*snip*)

My preference for the DAO / more Tolkienish elves could very well be my image of "how elves should be",this is why it is difficult to have a discussion over something like "art style" or "visual identity" - it is all so subjective,a matter of tastes.

You're not wrong. The Na'vi are more feline than the DA2 Elves, but there definitely was some 'felinization' going on, especially with the eyes. It's not uncommon either with fantasy Elves, there are some fantasy Elves out there with big ears and 'feline' eyes. In some cases the face is very triangular, a bit like a cat's, but this seems to be far less the case with DA2 Elves. If I look at EWR's pictures a few may have a bit of it, but it's not dominant or even common.

Preferences are subjective, but style isn't, I think. We may not be knowledgeable enough to properly analyse the elements in DA:O and DA2's visuals, but that doesn't mean that these elements aren't there.

Modifié par Das Tentakel, 08 mai 2012 - 09:37 .

[Silfren]

Begemotka wrote...

Sutekh wrote...

Begemotka wrote...

Whereas DA2 gave us...the Navi,but with less attractive physique...

Or they didn't.

This is Fenarel, an elf of the good looking category:



Compare with the Na'vi. The only thing they have in common is the nose bridge. Not even the whole nose, just the bridge. The Na'vi nose itself it a lion nose. The ears are implanted higher and are more vertical. The cheekbones are much wider. The mouth is thicker. Overall, and above all, Na'vi have a very feline feel which elves absolutely don't. One common point isn't enough for similarity, or you could also say the elves look like vulcans, or bajorans or whatever alien species has slightly non human features.

As much as I do prefer DAO elves, DA2's, when properly done, aren't that bad. We don't need yet another High Elves Tolkien fantasy, because there's already plenty of those. And I'm sure that if we'd had the new look back in DAO, we wouldn't be that upset about it. Fact is, we're used to it, some of us even played elves, so we have that image of "how it should be", and change isn't always easy to accept. And then, of course, there's personal taste, which isn't debatable.

This said, body proportions and posture need some serious tweaking. More variety in facial features wouldn't hurt either.

I agree that the DA2 elves are not exact copies of the Na`vi. However,when I first saw them,I was immediately reminded of those blue feline-like folks. For me,they had a feline feel. And Fenarel does,too.
Again,as you yourself pointed out,it is only my impression,and others might not have made a similar connection.
(The fact that I am a complete cat person and own a cat might contribute to my biased associations:lol:).

I also understand if the DA2 team wanted a change from the Tolkien elves - but since we more or less had those in DAO,the sudden departure was jarring and felt out of place and for me,represented one more step towards dismantling an insofar more or less cohesive visual identity DA established with Origins.
My preference for the DAO / more Tolkienish elves could very well be my image of "how elves should be",this is why it is difficult to have a discussion over something like "art style" or "visual identity" - it is all so subjective,a matter of tastes,.

I agree that it would help a lot if they tweaked the elves to be more proportionate,with more variety in facial features - perhaps a healthy marriage between the two designs.
All in all,there were features in both games` styles I liked and there were some I did not.
DAO could have been more imaginative - but it stood out because everything felt "in place".
It had its faults,but everything felt believable within the confines of the fantasy world they created.

DA:O elves were NOT Tolkien elves.  Where is anyone getting that notion?  

Tolkien's elves did not follow the traditional way elves have been portrayed per RPG rules.  First and foremost, AD&D and similar rpg-style tropes portray elves as significantly shorter than humans as a natural, typical elven trait.  They are also prone to being more slight of figure.  Origins did seem to follow that trope to an extent.  But that is NOT how Tolkien portrayed his elves.  His Elves were as tall as humans, and hardly slight-figured.  Moreover, they were all beautiful creatures ("fair" is the term Tolkien used) as a matter of their biology, and they were indeed so much more fair than Men (Humans) that they were instantly recognizable as Elves.  There's nothing in Tolkien's works to suggest that they looked physically different from humans, but they had some quality that prevented anyone from every mistaking an Elf for a human.  Usually it's their beauty--as one is described as being "fair beyond the measure of men," and that is a typical state for Tolkien's elves.  Or it's the "light of the Eldar" in their eyes, that is seen even in those who are only half-Elven. 

Really, where did anyone get this idea that Bioware's Origins elves were based on Tolkien's? 

[Dakota Strider]

Silfren wrote...
DA:O elves were NOT Tolkien elves.  Where is anyone getting that notion?  

Tolkien's elves did not follow the traditional way elves have been portrayed per RPG rules.  First and foremost, AD&D and similar rpg-style tropes portray elves as significantly shorter than humans as a natural, typical elven trait.  They are also prone to being more slight of figure.  Origins did seem to follow that trope to an extent.  But that is NOT how Tolkien portrayed his elves.  His Elves were as tall as humans, and hardly slight-figured.  Moreover, they were all beautiful creatures ("fair" is the term Tolkien used) as a matter of their biology, and they were indeed so much more fair than Men (Humans) that they were instantly recognizable as Elves.  There's nothing in Tolkien's works to suggest that they looked physically different from humans, but they had some quality that prevented anyone from every mistaking an Elf for a human.  Usually it's their beauty--as one is described as being "fair beyond the measure of men," and that is a typical state for Tolkien's elves.  Or it's the "light of the Eldar" in their eyes, that is seen even in those who are only half-Elven. 

Really, where did anyone get this idea that Bioware's Origins elves were based on Tolkien's? 

Exactly right.  If anything, Tolkien's elves were often taller than humans.  Lady Galadriel was said to be about 6'4" tall, was easily a foot taller, or more than the average elf female in D&D or most other games.  Tolkien's elves were considered to be just a short step away from divinity, in many respects.  The elves Bioware used in the Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights games would have been closer to Tolkien elves, because they were using the AD&D license, and Dungeons and Dragons elve's were relatively close to the Tolkien model, except for stature and hardiness.  But the Dragon Age elves bear a closer resemblance to Tolkien's orcs, than they do to the elves he wrote about.

[Direwolf0294]

Silfren wrote...

DA:O elves were NOT Tolkien elves.  Where is anyone getting that notion?  

Tolkien's elves did not follow the traditional way elves have been portrayed per RPG rules.  First and foremost, AD&D and similar rpg-style tropes portray elves as significantly shorter than humans as a natural, typical elven trait.  They are also prone to being more slight of figure.  Origins did seem to follow that trope to an extent.  But that is NOT how Tolkien portrayed his elves.  His Elves were as tall as humans, and hardly slight-figured.  Moreover, they were all beautiful creatures ("fair" is the term Tolkien used) as a matter of their biology, and they were indeed so much more fair than Men (Humans) that they were instantly recognizable as Elves.  There's nothing in Tolkien's works to suggest that they looked physically different from humans, but they had some quality that prevented anyone from every mistaking an Elf for a human.  Usually it's their beauty--as one is described as being "fair beyond the measure of men," and that is a typical state for Tolkien's elves.  Or it's the "light of the Eldar" in their eyes, that is seen even in those who are only half-Elven. 

Really, where did anyone get this idea that Bioware's Origins elves were based on Tolkien's? 

It's funny. In DA:O I loved that BioWare decided not to make the typical Tolkien Elves other fantasy games go with (though I do like Tolkien Elves) or the whole high/light elf and dark elf thing D&D and such uses but instead went with their own design and take on elves in both appearance and society.

Then in DA2 I hated how they seemed to scrape that and decided to start using typical Tolkien Elves, only they screwed it up a bit and ended up making them look like they'd been crossed with Na'vi.

I really hope they go back to using DA:O's elves for DA3 and that they go back to DAO's realistic, gritty graphics. I didn't really like DA2's cartoony graphics at all. The Qunari and Flemmeth looked better then DA:O but I don't see why they can't maintain that same look in a game using DA:O's graphics. Everything else in DA2 looked sort of silly and it was hard to take anything seriously, especially when you also had oversized weapons and enemies exploding in clouds of blood.

[Zack_Nero]

The art style is better then what it was in DA:O, it definitely felt more interactive and gave every character a more unique look. I just wish they done that for their level design

[Archmage Silvery]

Dragon Age II was too much like a JRPG in my opinion, and I would have preferred the Origins art style with upgraded graphics.

Modifié par Archmage Silvery, 09 mai 2012 - 12:22 .

[Ryllen Laerth Kriel]

I really disliked all the aesthetics of DA 2 from the cartoony look of the characters and items to the horribly B-movie ninja animations during combat and to all that thought DA:O looked too "muddy"...Kirkwall didn't fair much better with all the tan and rare spots of color. The place was immaculate and deserted, not a bustling city with personality. White tiled autopsy rooms have more personality than Kirkwall and even show more difference in a decade of use.

DA:O did heavily rely on something of an accepted aesthetic of what fantasy should look like but had a few of it's own spins which gave it uniqueness. I mostly felt the combat, armors, weapons, animations and scenery fit the tone of the story.

[Rabid Rooster]

The only thing I liked in DA2 was the qunari and the new body models for human PCs. They need to dorp the rest (espceaily the new elves ) and go back to a nitty and gritty style like DA:O.

[Das Tentakel]

Silfren wrote...
Really, where did anyone get this idea that Bioware's Origins elves were based on Tolkien's? 

Because they ultimately derive from Tolkien. Not directly, but by way of D&D.
And that's pretty much obvious in a variety of ways if anyone cares to make a deeper historical analysis. From some basic concepts to some of the names etc.

That the DA Elves have significantly strayed from the Tolkien model, just like their immediate D&D forebears, is clear. And it's Bioware thing so if they change them into bunny-eared nocturnal humanoid mutant vegetables, that's fine.
But that doesn't change the fact that if you look closely, you'll see serial numbers and the text  'Made in Britain' (mostly) filed off, yet still faintly readable.

As for preferences, the DA:O Elves were a pretty uninspiring lot, while the DA2 Elves were more distinctive, yet way more 'off' looking than DA:O's. Give me Jackson, or even LotR Online, any day.
You can twiddle around with human anatomy if you can, but you better have the skill and the resources to make the end result look 'right'.
And Bioware seems to have lacked both. Maybe better next time?

Modifié par Das Tentakel, 09 mai 2012 - 08:13 .

[nightscrawl]

JimmyTheProthean wrote...

Even though Origins could be bleak and muddy at times it was still brilliant and the realistic gritty artstyle suited and made the game for me.

If we're talking about the world itself, I like them both, although I do agree that the gritty style in DAO suited the era better.

That said, I can't stand the modern, geometric, gradient UI style. Pretty much the only thing I liked about it was the cleverness in using different shapes for sustained (hexagon) vs activated (diamond) abilities. 


At PAX East, Mike had this to say about style...

I think there's a bit of a confusion around looking at DA2 and thinking that that's the art style for the entire universe, when in fact, like for the environments, for instance, that's the art style for the Free Marches, or Kirkwall, or specifically Tevinter slave breaking camps. The lack of travel, the lack of seeing the different spaces means that there wasn't the kind of visual variety that you saw when you moved say, between the Brecillian Forest, down to Ostagar, and so on. And I think that's something we want to make sure and get back so you can see how this art style expands across the world.

Make of that what you will.

[Das Tentakel]

nightscrawl wrote...

At PAX East, Mike had this to say about style... I think there's a bit of a confusion around looking at DA2 and thinking that that's the art style for the entire universe, when in fact, like for the environments, for instance, that's the art style for the Free Marches, or Kirkwall, or specifically Tevinter slave breaking camps.

Oh, that was a wonderful passage. In the Pax presentation that's the part he took over from an assistant art director who was completely flustered after being asked a critical question regarding the art style.
I have to give it to Mike Laidlaw, in one sentence, while not openly disowning 'the Kirkwall look', he threw that 'look' in the garbage can. We're probably not going to see its like again, except perhaps in passing.

Fine by me. In fact: Yaaaaaaaay!

And there was much rejoicing...

Modifié par Das Tentakel, 09 mai 2012 - 10:59 .

[AkiKishi]

JimmyTheProthean wrote...

Even though Origins could be bleak and muddy at times it was still brilliant and the realistic gritty artstyle suited and made the game for me. I really don't understand why Bioware wants the Cartoony artstyle they did for Dragon Age 2  will probally use for Dragon Age 3. It makes me less connected to the Characters and story and world by having this over the top artstyle i really hope Bioware reconsider's it in Future Dragon age games.
For example i liked the Silent grove arstyle it looked gritty and realistic and nothing was too cartoony or anything even though it was a comic. What do you guys and guylettes think?

The art style does not fit the theme. Kind of like how you can do the same thing in an anime/manga and it can feel very different depedning on if the style is realistic or exagerated.

DA2's style is more PG13 than 18.

Now I've finally finished Xenoblade (160 hours +)  I'm looking forward to seeing how Witcher2 contrasts with DA2 in style and feel.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 09 mai 2012 - 11:16 .

[Windninja47]

I quite liked the dragon age 2 art style, it's a bit flashier.