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[Darth_Trethon]

IanPolaris wrote...

YOU are supposed to be the champion of Kirkwall which makes you the second most important person in the city.  YOU should have been able to call Meredith on her BS without automatically siding with the mages.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  And no, it wasn't an complex moral situation at all.  Meredith is clearly using a terrorist act to justify an overt and open act of genocide (which she is openly gloating about and looking forward to) and worse genocide against those that had NOTHING to do with the terrorist act!  That's not a hard moral choice...or at least it shouldn't be.

Well I always played as a mage so it always made sense to me.....I was champion and I did speak out to calm the situation as much as I could but I could NEVER act against her without inciting the war myself....even as the champion I was still a Mage, an apostate at that, so the most I could do was further incite things if I took matters in my own hand. Given the trailers it may be that they centered the story around a mage Hawke that may make less sense for a Warrior or Rogue....hard to say since I never experienced the full story with either of those.

Meredith was under the influence of the relic and we saw what a small piece of it did to Varic's brother......and her cause and concerns did make a whole lot of sense....you spend the whole game seeing the horror and devastation that happens when mages lose control....most normal humans likely feared them to the point where they'd support Meredith in the feeling that the world may be better without mages completely.

Modifié par Darth_Trethon, 07 mai 2012 - 11:12 .

[Darth_Trethon]

IanPolaris wrote...


Just no.  Do a pro-mage DA2 playthrough and you will see how lame this explaination is.  When you are in the tower, Orsino is completely realistic about the chances of both his personal survival and of winning this battle.  His goal (and yours) is to hold out long enough to allow mages to escape to help win the larger war by warning the other circles.

You beat back (brutally) the first templar wave.  Orsino's plan is working and working better than he had hoped!  Then he take an extra dose of stupid pills.

It's a really bad scene and clearly shoehorned in to make you fight in both areas and fight both bosses.

-Polaris

Under demon influence.......remember?? Yeah that's the demon taking over. Things did go better than expected.....for the demon, now it has a smaller group left to kill. Orsino likely began to slowly lose out to the demon due to fear once the conflict started it it hadn't lost control long before....it may have just been the demon biding its time for an opportunity. This was a long planned contingency plan for Orsino so the demon had time to work on him.

[Zuka999]

The journey was grand, the destination was garbage.

[IanPolaris]

Darth_Trethon wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...


Just no.  Do a pro-mage DA2 playthrough and you will see how lame this explaination is.  When you are in the tower, Orsino is completely realistic about the chances of both his personal survival and of winning this battle.  His goal (and yours) is to hold out long enough to allow mages to escape to help win the larger war by warning the other circles.

You beat back (brutally) the first templar wave.  Orsino's plan is working and working better than he had hoped!  Then he take an extra dose of stupid pills.

It's a really bad scene and clearly shoehorned in to make you fight in both areas and fight both bosses.

-Polaris

Under demon influence.......remember?? Yeah that's the demon taking over. Things did go better than expected.....for the demon, now it has a smaller group left to kill. Orsino likely began to slowly lose out to the demon due to fear once the conflict started it it hadn't lost control long before....it may have just been the demon biding its time for an opportunity. This was a long planned contingency plan for Orsino so the demon had time to work on him.

Nope.  Orsino did the blood ritual of his own volition.  No Demon involved there.  The ritual is what enabled the Demon to take over.  There is no evidence that being a bloodmage automatically makes you an abomination.  See Merrill or even Hawke himself.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Darth_Trethon wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

YOU are supposed to be the champion of Kirkwall which makes you the second most important person in the city.  YOU should have been able to call Meredith on her BS without automatically siding with the mages.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  And no, it wasn't an complex moral situation at all.  Meredith is clearly using a terrorist act to justify an overt and open act of genocide (which she is openly gloating about and looking forward to) and worse genocide against those that had NOTHING to do with the terrorist act!  That's not a hard moral choice...or at least it shouldn't be.

Well I always played as a mage so it always made sense to me.....I was champion and I did speak out to calm the situation as much as I could but I could NEVER act against her without inciting the war myself....even as the champion I was still a Mage, an apostate at that, so the most I could do was further incite things if I took matters in my own hand. Given the trailers it may be that they centered the story around a mage Hawke that may make less sense for a Warrior or Rogue....hard to say since I never experienced the full story with either of those.

You are STILL the Champion of Kirkwall, and Meredith openly appeals to you to "restore order" by issuing what amounts to an act of genocide against those that weren't even involved in the terrorist act.  As CHAMPION you should have been able to at least try to call her on the BS and perhaps (with Aveline, Capt of the Guard) even tried to instil Martial Law of your own (you are a Kirkwall noble at this point).

And...as a mage if you do side with Meredith, you get to be a MAGE Viscount?  Really?

No.  DA2 especially the very end was just horrible....it's better than ME3 but only because it didn't actually destroy the franchise.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Zuka999 wrote...

The journey was grand, the destination was garbage.

Sail the Titantic!

-Polaris

[Darth_Trethon]

IanPolaris wrote...

Nope.  Orsino did the blood ritual of his own volition.  No Demon involved there.  The ritual is what enabled the Demon to take over.  There is no evidence that being a bloodmage automatically makes you an abomination.  See Merrill or even Hawke himself.

-Polaris

Actually there's plenty of evidence.....blood magic IS dealing with demons and we saw how well it went for Merril. Her clan leader could not control the demon and that would have likely happened to Merril herself had her elder not taken the burden herself.

As for Hawke blood mage....there was no story developed there at all the it makes no sense mechanically. Everyone freaks out at the mere thought of blood magic yet everyone fails to see you using it. So there's not much to say there because BioWare never developed any context for it.

[DeepHrtn]

One thing worth remembering about DA2 is that it actually tried some new things. I think it has the best implementation of the dialogue wheel and relationships in any Bioware game (three distinct and consistent PC personalities! Separate romance/friendship/rivalry dialogue paths!). It also tried to tell a narrative that played with and challenged genre expectations. Now, I think DA2 failed to accomplish a lot of what it was striving for, but I still respect the attempt and enjoy aspects of the game.

ME3 on the other hand strikes me as a really unambitious game, which is pretty surprising. I can't really think of many innovations to the Bioware-style-RPG that it brings to the table. Sure, it refines the shooter gameplay (which was indeed very polished), but that's about it. Instead of trying to fix or improve elements from ME2, ME3 just abandons entire ideas (no vehicles, no exploration, no minigames, no suicide mission, mostly non-interactive dialogue with your squadmates...).

[Rxdiaz]

I honestly got no enjoyment out of DA2 at all.
ME3 has some good parts but really, where is the RPG?
This seems more like Gears of Effect than anything.
They've turned Mass Effect into a Gears of War knockoff that isn't anywhere near as good as a shooter and blew the entire Mass Effect story to hell....

But otherwise it was ok... Lol

[Darth_Trethon]

IanPolaris wrote...

You are STILL the Champion of Kirkwall, and Meredith openly appeals to you to "restore order" by issuing what amounts to an act of genocide against those that weren't even involved in the terrorist act.  As CHAMPION you should have been able to at least try to call her on the BS and perhaps (with Aveline, Capt of the Guard) even tried to instil Martial Law of your own (you are a Kirkwall noble at this point).

And...as a mage if you do side with Meredith, you get to be a MAGE Viscount?  Really?

No.  DA2 especially the very end was just horrible....it's better than ME3 but only because it didn't actually destroy the franchise.

-Polaris

Meredith was under the influence of the relic and we saw what a small piece of it did to Varic's brother......and her cause and concerns did make a whole lot of sense....you spend the whole game seeing the horror and devastation that happens when mages lose control....most normal humans likely feared them to the point where they'd support Meredith in the feeling that the world may be better without mages completely.....neither templars nor citizens would look kindly on a mage making a move for power in such a situation....don't fool yourself...there's nothing for hawke to do without becoming public enemy until Meredith shows herself to be under demon influence.

Now if you side with the templars then you just prove to be above demon influence and just helped the city fend against the worst so you earn that trust.

Modifié par Darth_Trethon, 07 mai 2012 - 11:22 .

[IanPolaris]

Darth_Trethon wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Nope.  Orsino did the blood ritual of his own volition.  No Demon involved there.  The ritual is what enabled the Demon to take over.  There is no evidence that being a bloodmage automatically makes you an abomination.  See Merrill or even Hawke himself.

-Polaris

Actually there's plenty of evidence.....blood magic IS dealing with demons and we saw how well it went for Merril. Her clan leader could not control the demon and that would have likely happened to Merril herself had her elder not taken the burden herself.

No it's not.  You can be a bloodmage and learn it (from others or from books) without dealing with demons.  Summoning a demon is bloodmagic, but that does not mean that all bloodmagic requires demons.  In fact in DA:Awakening you can learn Bloodmagic from books, and Jowan learns it this way himself (Jowan avoids demons).  You CAN learn bloodmagic from a demon, but it's not required.

As for Hawke blood mage....there was no story developed there at all the it makes no sense mechanically. Everyone freaks out at the mere thought of blood magic yet everyone fails to see you using it. So there's not much to say there because BioWare never developed any context for it.

And you still defend DA?  The fact is, however, that a bloodmage can teach another bloodmagic without using a demon.  Merrill could have easily taught Hawke.  For that matter, Hawke's father was a bloodmage.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Darth_Trethon wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

You are STILL the Champion of Kirkwall, and Meredith openly appeals to you to "restore order" by issuing what amounts to an act of genocide against those that weren't even involved in the terrorist act.  As CHAMPION you should have been able to at least try to call her on the BS and perhaps (with Aveline, Capt of the Guard) even tried to instil Martial Law of your own (you are a Kirkwall noble at this point).

And...as a mage if you do side with Meredith, you get to be a MAGE Viscount?  Really?

No.  DA2 especially the very end was just horrible....it's better than ME3 but only because it didn't actually destroy the franchise.

-Polaris

Meredith was under the influence of the relic and we saw what a small
piece of it did to Varic's brother......and her cause and concerns did
make a whole lot of sense....you spend the whole game seeing the horror
and devastation that happens when mages lose control....most normal
humans likely feared them to the point where they'd support Meredith in
the feeling that the world may be better without mages completely....don't fool yourself...there's nothing for hawke to do without becoming public enemy until Meredity shows herself to be under demon influence.

Really?  It didn't stop Guard Captain Avaline from openly questioning Meredith nor did it stop Prince Sebastian, but they did NOT have the authority to do anything about it.  YOU (as Champion of Kirkwall) did and should.

-Polaris

[hammerfan]

ME3 without a doubt, my expectations weren't nearly as high for DA2.

[dotupkid]

 No question, ME3. Must add this is simply due to the ending.

[IanPolaris]

Rxdiaz wrote...

I honestly got no enjoyment out of DA2 at all.
ME3 has some good parts but really, where is the RPG?
This seems more like Gears of Effect than anything.
They've turned Mass Effect into a Gears of War knockoff that isn't anywhere near as good as a shooter and blew the entire Mass Effect story to hell....

But otherwise it was ok... Lol

Indeed, one of the charms of the Mass Effect franchise was that it was an effective and enjoyable RPG/Shooter hybrid.  It wasn't as good at RPG as Dragon Age Origins, but that was OK.  That wasn't the expectation, nor was it as good as the other shooters, but that wasn't the expectation either.

Now, ME3 has become a second rate shooter with virtually no RP.

-Polaris

[Darth_Trethon]

IanPolaris wrote...

Darth_Trethon wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Nope.  Orsino did the blood ritual of his own volition.  No Demon involved there.  The ritual is what enabled the Demon to take over.  There is no evidence that being a bloodmage automatically makes you an abomination.  See Merrill or even Hawke himself.

-Polaris

Actually there's plenty of evidence.....blood magic IS dealing with demons and we saw how well it went for Merril. Her clan leader could not control the demon and that would have likely happened to Merril herself had her elder not taken the burden herself.

No it's not.  You can be a bloodmage and learn it (from others or from books) without dealing with demons.  Summoning a demon is bloodmagic, but that does not mean that all bloodmagic requires demons.  In fact in DA:Awakening you can learn Bloodmagic from books, and Jowan learns it this way himself (Jowan avoids demons).  You CAN learn bloodmagic from a demon, but it's not required.

As for Hawke blood mage....there was no story developed there at all the it makes no sense mechanically. Everyone freaks out at the mere thought of blood magic yet everyone fails to see you using it. So there's not much to say there because BioWare never developed any context for it.

And you still defend DA?  The fact is, however, that a bloodmage can teach another bloodmagic without using a demon.  Merrill could have easily taught Hawke.  For that matter, Hawke's father was a bloodmage.

-Polaris

Your blood mage logic is going nowhere.....Merril DIDN'T teach Hawke blood magic so that point has no worth and again we saw how well that went for Hawke's father.....blood magic ends badly period. Any attempt to defend it is beyond futile since it makes a whole lot less sense than your would be major ending issues.

[IanPolaris]

Darth_Trethon wrote...

Your blood mage logic is going nowhere.....Merril DIDN'T teach Hawke blood magic so that point has no worth and again we saw how well that went for Hawke's father.....blood magic ends badly period. Any attempt to defend it is beyond futile since it makes a whole lot less sense than your would be major ending issues.

You don't know if Merrill taught Hawke bloodmagic or not, so don't state it like it's a fact.  The FACT is (because we do see evidence of this in the game) is that you can learn bloodmagic and do bloodmagic demon free.  It's not easy and most do use the demon route, but it's not the only one.  Jowan didn't suffer because of his bloodmagic.  He suffered because he was frankly an idiot about it.  Your bloodmage Warden can not only do a deal with a demon for bloodmagic but actually come out ahead in the deal, and the Warden Commander (Orlesian) in Awakenings can learn it from a book.  There is also persistant evidence that bloodmagic is perhaps the oldest of the magics and if it were as dangerous as you want to imply, there wouldn't be any civilization.

So no, Bloodmagic does NOT always end badly.

-Polaris

[Darth_Trethon]

IanPolaris wrote...

Darth_Trethon wrote...


Meredith was under the influence of the relic and we saw what a small
piece of it did to Varic's brother......and her cause and concerns did
make a whole lot of sense....you spend the whole game seeing the horror
and devastation that happens when mages lose control....most normal
humans likely feared them to the point where they'd support Meredith in
the feeling that the world may be better without mages completely....don't fool yourself...there's nothing for hawke to do without becoming public enemy until Meredity shows herself to be under demon influence.

Really?  It didn't stop Guard Captain Avaline from openly questioning Meredith nor did it stop Prince Sebastian, but they did NOT have the authority to do anything about it.  YOU (as Champion of Kirkwall) did and should.

-Polaris

Aveline wasn't a mage, you ARE.....being champion does not mean that the Templars or citizens would stand by as you step over that which is supposed to safeguard them against magic......you do NOT have that ammount of trust or authority.

Modifié par Darth_Trethon, 07 mai 2012 - 11:31 .

[IanPolaris]

Darth_Trethon wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Darth_Trethon wrote...


Meredith was under the influence of the relic and we saw what a small
piece of it did to Varic's brother......and her cause and concerns did
make a whole lot of sense....you spend the whole game seeing the horror
and devastation that happens when mages lose control....most normal
humans likely feared them to the point where they'd support Meredith in
the feeling that the world may be better without mages completely....don't fool yourself...there's nothing for hawke to do without becoming public enemy until Meredity shows herself to be under demon influence.

Really?  It didn't stop Guard Captain Avaline from openly questioning Meredith nor did it stop Prince Sebastian, but they did NOT have the authority to do anything about it.  YOU (as Champion of Kirkwall) did and should.

-Polaris

Aveline wasn't a mage, you ARE.....being champion does not mean that the Templars or citizens would stand by as you step over that which is supposed to safeguard them against magic......you do NOT have that ammount of trust or authority.

You aren't always a mage as Hawke.  Even if you are, you CAN get the people and nobility to side with you as Champion (see first scene in Act III, if you oppose Meredith, you get some covert noble backing and the crowd backs you...even as a mage).

-Polaris

[Karolus_V]

Aww common, is well know that all evil in Dragon Age 2 is originated on the damn dark forge of the city. Thats the reason you have to go at this place again and again and again and again and again and again and again to kill something in it.

[Darth_Trethon]

IanPolaris wrote...

Darth_Trethon wrote...

Your blood mage logic is going nowhere.....Merril DIDN'T teach Hawke blood magic so that point has no worth and again we saw how well that went for Hawke's father.....blood magic ends badly period. Any attempt to defend it is beyond futile since it makes a whole lot less sense than your would be major ending issues.

You don't know if Merrill taught Hawke bloodmagic or not, so don't state it like it's a fact. 
-Polaris

OK That's it.....you are going into fantasy land of baseless claims....there is NOTHING in the game at any point to suggest that any teaching is going on, claiming this as a point for your discussion is meaningless. If you want to make the point of Merril teaching anything you'd have to PROVE this happened.....going into the pointless territory or what could happen has no worth or value.....it's not your call, you do not write the story. Until BioWare addresses the matter of Merril or anyone for that matter teaching Hawke blood magic this really has no place in any argument.

[IanPolaris]

Darth_Trethon wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Darth_Trethon wrote...

Your blood mage logic is going nowhere.....Merril DIDN'T teach Hawke blood magic so that point has no worth and again we saw how well that went for Hawke's father.....blood magic ends badly period. Any attempt to defend it is beyond futile since it makes a whole lot less sense than your would be major ending issues.

You don't know if Merrill taught Hawke bloodmagic or not, so don't state it like it's a fact. 
-Polaris

OK That's it.....you are going into fantasy land of baseless claims....there is NOTHING in the game at any point to suggest that any teaching is going on, claiming this as a point for your discussion is meaningless. If you want to make the point of Merril teaching anything you'd have to PROVE this happened.....going into the pointless territory or what could happen has no worth or value.....it's not your call, you do not write the story. Until BioWare addresses the matter of Merril or anyone for that matter teaching Hawke blood magic this really has no place in any argument.

I am not stating that Merrill taught Hawke.  I am saying she might have.  It is NOT an unreasonably thing to happen over the space of seven years.  We DO know that bloodmagic can be taught to others (and not just by demons) and it CAN be learned from books.   So I am not the one making assumptions here.  You are.

-Polaris

[Dukkhar]

ME3 was the bigger dissapointment for me. I really didn't like DA2 but since it was a separate game that had little to do with with DAO I was just dissapointed that it wasn't better.

ME3 managed to ruin a 2 of my favourite games and in some levels my lust to ever again start a gameseries or a television series before I know that they will not ruin it in the end. There have been to many cases of series getting destroyed by lousy endings, or no endings at all where they just keep them going to get more money from their fans.

[Darth_Trethon]

IanPolaris wrote...

I am not stating that Merrill taught Hawke.  I am saying she might have.  It is NOT an unreasonably thing to happen over the space of seven years.  We DO know that bloodmagic can be taught to others (and not just by demons) and it CAN be learned from books.   So I am not the one making assumptions here.  You are.

-Polaris

Based on WHAT? Nothing....Merril had a deal with one demon which granted her the power for the couple of times she uses it but we see how that bit ends with the demon destroyed so until and unless Merril makes a deal with another demon she no longer has any blood magic abilities. Plus you never actually have her use any of the blood magic abilities. That's what blood magic IS....a deal with a demon and it's a demon's power that actually causes the "magic" in blood magic to happen.

[Xelar1979]

I knew that DA2 was going to be slightly underwhelming based on my complete lack of empathy for the plight of the Hawke family right from the get-go, so my disappointment plateaued rather quickly. The disappointment that I felt in playing ME3 was far more insidious and difficult to place until the mirror was broken by the reality of the soul-crushing idiocy that ended Shepherd's story. After I gathered up the shards of my shattered expectations I thought back on my experiences in ME3 and quickly made note of all of the tiny, and not-so-tiny, flaws that I had unconsciously ignored throughout my entire playthrough.

ME3, w/out a doubt.