290 réponses à ce sujet

[borelocin]

I hate nerd rage rage rage ragers ! Was the that the right number of "rages" ? Anyone who has a different opinion about any aspect of the game from me is a Randomexpletive Sweeping Generalisation !

[Inarai]

Haexpane wrote...

Inarai wrote...

Mind you, that's a bit different than balance as it's usually meant these days...

But I'd actually argue that by and large, the sort of balance you're talking about is here. For example, Rogues basically do better single target damage than anything, if built for it, allowing them to serve VITAL roles(IE, they're the one's you'll usually want to use to kill whatever simply has to die,

right then). 2-handed fighter serve as highly effective lockdown-tanks(they succeed in a tank-type role by locking down the enemy, rather than standing there and getting hit. Very effective strategy if used right. Toss on Champion for more of that fun.), and sword'n'boarders are a good mix of defensive and offensive ability who can hold their own inmass groups of enemies.

"Lockdown tank" is a great example of balance, although not the way you think.  Yes that can be an effective strategy, and that is indeed how balance was INTENDED> and shows furthermore that Bioware is indeed concerned about balance.

Why it is NOT BALANCED currently (pre latest patch?) is because you absolutely don't need a tank for that, and using a AW or another mage or a Rogue you can do the "tank's job" better and faster than he can.

It's hard to say "see that is balanced" it's easier to see an unbalanced mechanic.  In multiplayer it's even easier because of group selection.

In single player you actually have to try every class out yourself to even notice the balance issue.  In DAO you can notice it by how often you die and how quickly fights end.

Not every fight should be the same speed etc.. however when you notice that EVERY FIGHT IS FASTER EASIER w/ a bunch of mages.. .that indicates a balance issue.

When a non tank can do a tank's job, that is a clear balance issue.

Yeah, the Arcane Warrior is kind of ridiculous...  Though, that's actually an extension of a more core issue to the mage class:  THey're pretty much addicted to lyrium, and many see no motivation to put points in anything but magic.

[Titanmike357]

Faerell Gustani wrote...

Titanmike357 wrote...

Why do I even bother to come here?

I remember why I quit coming here, so I am a Nurage ( WTF is that ) person because I think that the classes are fine as they are?

When a non tank can tank is not a balance issue, there is more to tanking than having a sheild and high HP/armor.
Why is it a balance issue when you can pump out gobs of DPS /healing and CC by using three mages?
More DPS and CC than the mobs can handle?

As it is apparent that 3 tanks would do just as good of a job, yet slower because they put out less DPS, as it is that 3 rouges would be amazing mostly because rogues if DW tow full weapons can AOE dps like no other and ot damage a mage.

In short,

I think its fine, I post my thoughts and reasons.

You think its not, so you resort to calling me names and classifying me as a Nurage ( really explain this to me? ) saying that what you think means more than what I and others think?

I don't believe you specifically are being classified as NuRage.
According to the OP, NuRage is a classification for people who:
-Claim balance doesnt matter in Single Player
-balance only matters in multiplayer/WoW

You have done neither.  You merely claim that for you, the classes are balanced in that you can achieve the same (or similar) difficult in combat using any class.  Unfortunately, the majority of posters feel that Mages are overpowered and have a much greater success in combat with mages due to overpowered abilities.  These posters also tend to back up their claims with numbers and damage calculations.
While I respect your opinion and your argument, and I would not classify you as what the OP calls "NuRage", I also disagree since I too find that mages (pre-patch) tended to dominate everything.

trying not to be snide, my rouge is a powerhouse,  I dobut a mage could top her dps on 2-3 mobs at once.

Thank you for the explaning that to me, but TBH I did kinda claim balance is not so important in a SP game.

[Bibdy]

Balance should be always behind 'is it fun?' in the list of priorities.



You can afford to have a fun game that isn't balanced. You can't afford to have a balanced game that isn't fun.



Fun doesn't always equate to being overpowered, in fact its usually the opposite. The more overpowered you are, the less fun it tends to be, because you're not being challenged. You just breeze through every event like you've got God Mode on and it isn't very engaging for the player.



Players tend to correlate nerfs with "You're reducing the amount of fun I have! Rabble rabble rabble!". That's rarely, if ever, the intent. Nerfs usually happen to give players more options. If Cone of Cold is overpowered and makes the game trivial, how do you make the player choose other things instead of CoC and try different spells/tactics? Simple, nerf CoC, making it less appealing, thus opening the door to other options to explore.

[Faerell Gustani]

Sam -stone- serious wrote...

Game balance has more to do that simply class balance alone. The difficulty of the encounters, the way the battles are held and this balance extend to more than simply combat altogether. I dont even understand why some people automatically assume that when someone is talking of balance in a game is talking about class balance.

Get over yourselves the lot of you who only think as such. A balanced game is balanced in ALL AND EVERY of its aspects, not just the combat and class design and execution. This is NOT an MMO.

Please, let me know when you plan on informing us what "balance" factors are in the game which are not class related.  Otherwis you are falling into the "NuRage" that the OP mentions.

[Bluesmith]

Titanmike357 wrote...

http://social.biowar...&game=dragonage

Hi there, I do 51% of my parts damage, that party includes a mage and a shale and a two hander DPS warrior, yet I still manage to do 50+% over all!

I also have the most kills and no K/O's!

and BTW, I can tank 2-3 mobs at once because I can avoid there attacks and stun them, and I do two AOE attacks ( WW and DWS ) and I have 9 sources of damage across both weapons, I can kill three white mobs at once easily, I chew through red/orange mobs like a termite through wood.

I have 2 stuns, and on top of those 9 sources of damage at once i can add poisons!

Main hand + three runes
off hand + two runes
bleed effect,
DLC tainted blood effect
Poisons!

The only thing that can match me is when sten scores a massive hit and knocks back a entire group of mobs and stuns them and does 1/4 to 1/2 of there health bar worth of damage! ( two hand sweep )

Mages= not so Op as you might thnk.

game balance = not broken o me.

You've forgotten that mages possess infinite mana and can obliterate entire rooms without needing LOS, buff better than any other class, lockdown every mob on the screen, and stunlock bosses even after 1.02. There is more to being OP than raw DPS.

That said, you've also forgotten that, unlike Morrigan and Wynne, you have the advantage of always being in your party and always dealing damage.

[Titanmike357]

Wyllowe wrote...


Hey 'Titanmike357' ..... when all is said and done, what matters is whether YOU enjoy the game... not what the rest of us say.

true, true.

Some times I wonder why I post in these topics, I understand that not everyone is like me and they think X/Y/Z is not right, but i hardly ever get that in return, I also know that what you said is about all that matters.
And I can see some people not having fun because the class they play is OP or broken to them, but bashing others becuase we do not see things the same is silly.

Please note that up untill now, all my posts are to be taken lightly, not as SRS buzness.

[Inarai]

Faerell Gustani wrote...

Sam -stone- serious wrote...

Game balance has more to do that simply class balance alone. The difficulty of the encounters, the way the battles are held and this balance extend to more than simply combat altogether. I dont even understand why some people automatically assume that when someone is talking of balance in a game is talking about class balance.

Get over yourselves the lot of you who only think as such. A balanced game is balanced in ALL AND EVERY of its aspects, not just the combat and class design and execution. This is NOT an MMO.

Please, let me know when you plan on informing us what "balance" factors are in the game which are not class related.  Otherwis you are falling into the "NuRage" that the OP mentions.

Simple rule, actually:  The more powerful something the players have is, the more effective the means by which it is countered should be.

[Stitch808]

Titanmike357 wrote...

http://social.biowar...&game=dragonage

Hi there, I do 51% of my parts damage, that party includes a mage and a shale and a two hander DPS warrior, yet I still manage to do 50+% over all!

game balance = not broken o me.

You, sir, are not balanced.


j/k! Good show!

[Marionetten]

Bluesmith wrote...

You've forgotten that mages possess infinite mana and can obliterate entire rooms without needing LOS, buff better than any other class, lockdown every mob on the screen, and stunlock bosses even after 1.02. There is more to being OP than raw DPS.

Taunt is a far more effective and simpler tool of crowd control than anything a mage possesses. Taunt combined with force field completely trivialized the whole game for me. Yet I see nothing being done about taunt.

Modifié par Marionetten, 08 décembre 2009 - 08:38 .

[Bluesmith]

Marionetten wrote...

Bluesmith wrote...

You've forgotten that mages possess infinite mana and can obliterate entire rooms without needing LOS, buff better than any other class, lockdown every mob on the screen, and stunlock bosses even after 1.02. There is more to being OP than raw DPS.

Taunt is a far more effective tool of crowd control than anything a mage possesses. Taunt combined with force field completely trivialized the whole game for me. Yet I see nothing being done about taunt.

I have argued before that taunt (and threat in general) needs to be looked at. I have stated explicitly that taunt is OP.

Force field is a mage spell.

[Shadow_Viper]

There is no such thing as a "balanced" game.



If you believe something to be "unbalanced" then do not use/play it. Simple as that.



Whether or not you decide to use/play the thing in question(class, item, etc), the choice does not require you to go running to the forums and whining needlessly.



IFSW

[Slayer D]

NetBeansAndJava wrote...

Slayer D wrote...

And what if you really like to play mages? Should you have to research what spells are too powerful and intentionally gimp yourself to get satisfying game play?

The biggest thing wrong about your #2 is that it's the game designer's JOB to balance the classes. Not the consumer's. Simple as pie.

It's all a matter of what is "satisfying".  Some feel that being OP is satifying... as demonstrated by many who voiced their opinion against the patch.

As for whether or not it's the designer's job or the consumer's to balance classes... well ultimately it is the consumer's responsibility to make the choices that he/she feels will create the best gaming experience.  Should DLC armor, be removed b/c it's clearly OP for being something so easily obtained?  Some would say yes... others would say no.

If you want to play on easy mode, well, play easy mode.  They put 4 difficulty settings in there for a reason.  Satisfying, in this case, is actually getting the difficulty chosen.  If I chose nightmare but mages make it easy, something is wrong.  If I wanted easy, I'd pick easy.  

Again, balance is a CORE part of game design.  It's not a matter of opinion.

[Faerell Gustani]

Titanmike357 wrote...
trying not to be snide, my rouge is a powerhouse,  I dobut a mage could top her dps on 2-3 mobs at once.

Thank you for the explaning that to me, but TBH I did kinda claim balance is not so important in a SP game.

NP, and for what it's worth, I did look at the build and weaponry used, you have a very powerful rogue build, akin to the solo builds I've seen.  The Solo builds tend to do less damage as they use daggers instead of full sized 1-handers.  I suspect it also has to do with the fact that you loaded up your main with the best equipment.

For some comparison:
http://social.biowar...&game=dragonage
42% of party damage.  I suspect that it would be over 50% like yours if I decided to control him and not morrigan most of the time.  Positioning for backstabs increases my damage output dramatically.  However, his defense was high enough such that I would frequently just let him run around on his own while I micromanaged morrigan...and this is despite the fact that I specced her to be more control/healing than direct damage, I also ignored Cone of Cold cause it was too easily abused.

[Sam -stone- serious]

Faerell Gustani wrote...

Please, let me know when you plan on informing us what "balance"
factors are in the game which are not class related.  Otherwis you are
falling into the "NuRage" that the OP mentions.

Balance about encounters, enemies, decision making, logical progression, logical intervention of the sidestories, meaningful actions, balanced mechanics as a whole. I hope you can understand what i am talking about because in this respect, meaning the games balance, was just horendous to say the least. The bugs just made the things even more obvious and tedious than they already were.

[Inarai]

Slayer D wrote...

NetBeansAndJava wrote...

Slayer D wrote...

And what if you really like to play mages? Should you have to research what spells are too powerful and intentionally gimp yourself to get satisfying game play?

The biggest thing wrong about your #2 is that it's the game designer's JOB to balance the classes. Not the consumer's. Simple as pie.

It's all a matter of what is "satisfying".  Some feel that being OP is satifying... as demonstrated by many who voiced their opinion against the patch.

As for whether or not it's the designer's job or the consumer's to balance classes... well ultimately it is the consumer's responsibility to make the choices that he/she feels will create the best gaming experience.  Should DLC armor, be removed b/c it's clearly OP for being something so easily obtained?  Some would say yes... others would say no.

If you want to play on easy mode, well, play easy mode.  They put 4 difficulty settings in there for a reason.  Satisfying, in this case, is actually getting the difficulty chosen.  If I chose nightmare but mages make it easy, something is wrong.  If I wanted easy, I'd pick easy.  

Again, balance is a CORE part of game design.  It's not a matter of opinion.

Solution:  Dark Templars and enemies with Mana Clash. 

[SheffSteel]

Shadow_Viper wrote...

If you believe something to be "unbalanced" then do not use/play it. Simple as that.
IFSW

So, are you not playing the game after 1.02, or were you not playing beforehand?
Or was it balanced both before and after?

Modifié par SheffSteel, 08 décembre 2009 - 08:45 .

[Titanmike357]

Yeah taunt is a little over the top, shale can hold agro of mobs with my rogue in momentum and dueling on going crazy.

[Bluesmith]

Shadow_Viper wrote...

There is no such thing as a "balanced" game.

If you believe something to be "unbalanced" then do not use/play it. Simple as that.

Whether or not you decide to use/play the thing in question(class, item, etc), the choice does not require you to go running to the forums and whining needlessly.

IFSW

The best games are those that require extensive meta knowledge (particularly because there is no respec option), coupled with a willingness to forgo loads of content (especially the actual gameplay content, i.e., combat abilities and class/attribute load outs) in order to preserve challenge!

The best companies leave the arduous task of balancing up to the consumer, rather than the easy task of breaking! We want to make modders work harder and longer to deliver basic design elements! 

[Inarai]

Shadow_Viper wrote...

There is no such thing as a "balanced" game.

If you believe something to be "unbalanced" then do not use/play it. Simple as that.

Whether or not you decide to use/play the thing in question(class, item, etc), the choice does not require you to go running to the forums and whining needlessly.

IFSW

But the class should be available*.  And if a class breaks the game's challenge, then it's not.

*: Available might not be the right word...

[Titanmike357]

I would like to add this, rogue skill that allows backstabs when mob is stunned + mind blast = win!

[Inarai]

Titanmike357 wrote...

I would like to add this, rogue skill that allows backstabs when mob is stunned + mind blast = win!

Between that skill, Riposte/Dirty Fighting, and Momentum, rogues are incredible.

[Shadow_Viper]

Slayer D wrote...

NetBeansAndJava wrote...

Slayer D wrote...

And what if you really like to play mages? Should you have to research what spells are too powerful and intentionally gimp yourself to get satisfying game play?

The biggest thing wrong about your #2 is that it's the game designer's JOB to balance the classes. Not the consumer's. Simple as pie.

It's all a matter of what is "satisfying".  Some feel that being OP is satifying... as demonstrated by many who voiced their opinion against the patch.

As for whether or not it's the designer's job or the consumer's to balance classes... well ultimately it is the consumer's responsibility to make the choices that he/she feels will create the best gaming experience.  Should DLC armor, be removed b/c it's clearly OP for being something so easily obtained?  Some would say yes... others would say no.

If I chose nightmare but mages make it easy, something is wrong.  If I wanted easy, I'd pick easy.  

So don't play/use Mages, problem solved.

IFSW.

[Titanmike357]

Faerell Gustani wrote...

Titanmike357 wrote...
trying not to be snide, my rouge is a powerhouse,  I dobut a mage could top her dps on 2-3 mobs at once.

Thank you for the explaning that to me, but TBH I did kinda claim balance is not so important in a SP game.

NP, and for what it's worth, I did look at the build and weaponry used, you have a very powerful rogue build, akin to the solo builds I've seen.  The Solo builds tend to do less damage as they use daggers instead of full sized 1-handers.  I suspect it also has to do with the fact that you loaded up your main with the best equipment.

For some comparison:
http://social.biowar...&game=dragonage
42% of party damage.  I suspect that it would be over 50% like yours if I decided to control him and not morrigan most of the time.  Positioning for backstabs increases my damage output dramatically.  However, his defense was high enough such that I would frequently just let him run around on his own while I micromanaged morrigan...and this is despite the fact that I specced her to be more control/healing than direct damage, I also ignored Cone of Cold cause it was too easily abused.

Well, what if some of these people who have a balance problem are doing the same with gear on the mages? I am just saying here.

Personaly I have seen my rogue block more arrows/bolts with both weapons than my warrior did, and not only that she resists spells a lot,  and she blocks 50-70% of the attacks of a white mob.

[Faerell Gustani]

Inarai wrote...

Faerell Gustani wrote...

Sam -stone- serious wrote...

Game balance has more to do that simply class balance alone. The difficulty of the encounters, the way the battles are held and this balance extend to more than simply combat altogether. I dont even understand why some people automatically assume that when someone is talking of balance in a game is talking about class balance.

Get over yourselves the lot of you who only think as such. A balanced game is balanced in ALL AND EVERY of its aspects, not just the combat and class design and execution. This is NOT an MMO.

Please, let me know when you plan on informing us what "balance" factors are in the game which are not class related.  Otherwis you are falling into the "NuRage" that the OP mentions.

Simple rule, actually:  The more powerful something the players have is, the more effective the means by which it is countered should be.

I accept and agree with that definition.  However, my question was more along the lines of "Where are there balance issues that are not combat/class related?"
As far as I can tell, the only difference between the classes are combat issues.  There are a few story things here and there, but they're largely inconsequential in terms of balance.

So to rephrase my earlier statement into a request: "explain how one class or another is better/worse outside of combat".

These are directed to Sam-Stone, not necessarily Inari, but feel free to answer if you have one.