290 réponses à ce sujet

[SheffSteel]

Balance means giving the player different ways to play the game, both of which offer a reasonable amount of fun and challenge level.
The game design isn't working properly if it gives you an unbalanced choice such as cake or death. And no, saying "if you don't like death, just choose cake" doesn't help.

Modifié par SheffSteel, 08 décembre 2009 - 08:50 .

[Planetshooter]

One interesting question that comes out of this "balancing" debate is how things like The Edge fit into "balancing". It's free, every character gets it, any character can potentially use it by level 4 if they distribute enough points into dexterity ... it's quite an impressive weapon, particularly for a low level rogue. Is it "balanced"? Arguably not. Is it some kind of apology because rogues are perceived as less powerful than mages? I don't know, maybe. I didn't actively download it, it just popped up a few days ago after a message prompting me to restart the game. I've got a couple of low level rogue characters on the go so I was quite pleased, although I had a bit of guilt over just finding it in my inventory - maybe it would have been sweeter as a quest reward, maybe even for a quest where I would have needed help from an overpowered mage or two.

[addiction21]

Shadow_Viper wrote...


So don't play/use Mages, problem solved.

IFSW.

Yes because not playing the game to its fullest is "fixing" the problem.

[Faerell Gustani]

Sam -stone- serious wrote...

Faerell Gustani wrote...

Please, let me know when you plan on informing us what "balance"
factors are in the game which are not class related.  Otherwis you are
falling into the "NuRage" that the OP mentions.

Balance about encounters, enemies, decision making, logical progression, logical intervention of the sidestories, meaningful actions, balanced mechanics as a whole. I hope you can understand what i am talking about because in this respect, meaning the games balance, was just horendous to say the least. The bugs just made the things even more obvious and tedious than they already were.

So the balance concerns that yo're speaking about are more about the AI being dumb?

[Shadow_Viper]

SheffSteel wrote...

Shadow_Viper wrote...

If you believe something to be "unbalanced" then do not use/play it. Simple as that.
IFSW

So, are you not playing the game after 1.02, or were you not playing beforehand?
Or was it balanced both before and after?

"Balance" is a matter of opinion. Mostly, people just like to whine needlessly.

[Shadow_Viper]

addiction21 wrote...

Shadow_Viper wrote...


So don't play/use Mages, problem solved.

IFSW.

Yes because not playing the game to its fullest is "fixing" the problem.

It's only a problem because you believe it to be one.

[Titanmike357]

Inarai wrote...

Titanmike357 wrote...

I would like to add this, rogue skill that allows backstabs when mob is stunned + mind blast = win!

Between that skill, Riposte/Dirty Fighting, and Momentum, rogues are incredible.

True, I suspect that my build could have been stronger had I used the hot fix, or if I get the new patch because of the dex fix to daggers.

the assassin party memeber you get has the same setup as my rogue but uses daggers and with  momentum the back stab speed is stupid fast,  I can only guess at his DPS, but i would say with the new patch/hotfix he could easily out DPS my PC rogue, won't do numbers as big, and looses some runes but the speed is crazy.

Rogue fight

SDirty fighting, BS-BS-BS
Riposte-BS-BS Dead

Oh no there are 3-5 mobs in front of me or around me, 1 DWS and 1 WW later, hmm all dead/half dead

[Faerell Gustani]

Titanmike357 wrote...

Faerell Gustani wrote...

Titanmike357 wrote...
trying not to be snide, my rouge is a powerhouse,  I dobut a mage could top her dps on 2-3 mobs at once.

Thank you for the explaning that to me, but TBH I did kinda claim balance is not so important in a SP game.

NP, and for what it's worth, I did look at the build and weaponry used, you have a very powerful rogue build, akin to the solo builds I've seen.  The Solo builds tend to do less damage as they use daggers instead of full sized 1-handers.  I suspect it also has to do with the fact that you loaded up your main with the best equipment.

For some comparison:
http://social.biowar...&game=dragonage
42% of party damage.  I suspect that it would be over 50% like yours if I decided to control him and not morrigan most of the time.  Positioning for backstabs increases my damage output dramatically.  However, his defense was high enough such that I would frequently just let him run around on his own while I micromanaged morrigan...and this is despite the fact that I specced her to be more control/healing than direct damage, I also ignored Cone of Cold cause it was too easily abused.

Well, what if some of these people who have a balance problem are doing the same with gear on the mages? I am just saying here.

Personaly I have seen my rogue block more arrows/bolts with both weapons than my warrior did, and not only that she resists spells a lot,  and she blocks 50-70% of the attacks of a white mob.

Hence my mention of Solo builds.
Rogues were designed by intent to have a higher "avoidance" rate (higher defense) than say...warriors.
However, Warriors (tank specced) were meant to take less damage when they were hit.  It's a different type of defense.
I don't know about the spell resist thing though.  Alistair with his templar training had the best resistances in my party.

[Bibdy]

Faerell Gustani wrote...

Sam -stone- serious wrote...

Balance about encounters, enemies, decision making, logical progression, logical intervention of the sidestories, meaningful actions, balanced mechanics as a whole. I hope you can understand what i am talking about because in this respect, meaning the games balance, was just horendous to say the least. The bugs just made the things even more obvious and tedious than they already were.

So the balance concerns that yo're speaking about are more about the AI being dumb?

If the game had more Mage opponents throwing around Fireballs, Cone of Colds, Crushing Prisons,Curses of Mortality etc. with the same frequency that the player does, I'm sure there'd be a lot more complaints about balance

[themaxzero]

Bibdy wrote...

Balance should be always behind 'is it fun?' in the list of priorities.

You can afford to have a fun game that isn't balanced. You can't afford to have a balanced game that isn't fun.

Fun doesn't always equate to being overpowered, in fact its usually the opposite. The more overpowered you are, the less fun it tends to be, because you're not being challenged. You just breeze through every event like you've got God Mode on and it isn't very engaging for the player.

Players tend to correlate nerfs with "You're reducing the amount of fun I have! Rabble rabble rabble!". That's rarely, if ever, the intent. Nerfs usually happen to give players more options. If Cone of Cold is overpowered and makes the game trivial, how do you make the player choose other things instead of CoC and try different spells/tactics? Simple, nerf CoC, making it less appealing, thus opening the door to other options to explore.

It is rarely the intent true but it is often the result.

People act like the second you select the Force Field spell/Crushing Prision/Cone of Cold spell that suddenly your whole game changes and enemies fall like wheat and its just silly.

Over all my time the single spell that changed how I play more then any other is a spell that does not even get mentioned (hell most people never even take it):

Glyph of Repulsion.

Yet that spell remains untouched?

[Skellimancer]

The complete lack of balance is probably why they never intended to add Multiplayer.

[Slayer D]

Shadow_Viper wrote...

There is no such thing as a "balanced" game.

If you believe something to be "unbalanced" then do not use/play it. Simple as that.

Whether or not you decide to use/play the thing in question(class, item, etc), the choice does not require you to go running to the forums and whining needlessly.

IFSW

Just because nothing is perfect doesn't mean we shouldn't strive for something better.  By your logic, nobody should ever try to fix anything.  No game is ever going to be perfectly balanced, so what?  That's no reason to not try to balance it as best as can be done.

[-Solrek-]

Slayer D wrote...

The biggest thing is that you should be able to play whatever class you enjoy most and get the same challenge out of the game. The play through will, of course, need to be a different experience. But the game shouldn't be 5x easier or harder because you picked a gimped or overpowered class.

And it's not like picking a mage in the beginning of the game is some kind of super secret that only an elite few know about. It's just another class.

I'm with you 100%

Only a fool would think that balance doesn't mean anything in single player.

This.

[Sam -stone- serious]

Simple, each class -outside of combat- offers their own skills. In DAO such is of course not present because the game does not leave class development outside combat like other RPG games and this goes directly for your questions specifically about classes. If i am to take balance as a whole the game suffers badly but it seems this topic is not meant for anything else that to talk about the overpowered brute that is the AW and not the general game balance.

[Evil Socrates]

Wisdom in Torment is so OP! Nerf wisdom, it's not fair to my Con based character!!11!! What a broken game!

[addiction21]

Bibdy wrote...

Faerell Gustani wrote...

Sam -stone- serious wrote...

Balance about encounters, enemies, decision making, logical progression, logical intervention of the sidestories, meaningful actions, balanced mechanics as a whole. I hope you can understand what i am talking about because in this respect, meaning the games balance, was just horendous to say the least. The bugs just made the things even more obvious and tedious than they already were.

So the balance concerns that yo're speaking about are more about the AI being dumb?

If the game had more Mage opponents throwing around Fireballs, Cone of Colds, Crushing Prisons,Curses of Mortality etc. with the same frequency that the player does, I'm sure there'd be a lot more complaints about balance

BW should sneak in a change. All the archers in denerim are now mages.

[Skellimancer]

Arcane Warrior is a bad joke. No doubt made for the Kensai/Mage scrubs that plagued BG2.

[Sam -stone- serious]

[/quote]
So the balance concerns that yo're speaking about are more about the AI being dumb?
[/quote]

How in the nine hells have you come to that conclusion out of my post?

[NetBeansAndJava]

Bibdy wrote...

Faerell Gustani wrote...

Sam -stone- serious wrote...

Balance about encounters, enemies, decision making, logical progression, logical intervention of the sidestories, meaningful actions, balanced mechanics as a whole. I hope you can understand what i am talking about because in this respect, meaning the games balance, was just horendous to say the least. The bugs just made the things even more obvious and tedious than they already were.

So the balance concerns that yo're speaking about are more about the AI being dumb?

If the game had more Mage opponents throwing around Fireballs, Cone of Colds, Crushing Prisons,Curses of Mortality etc. with the same frequency that the player does, I'm sure there'd be a lot more complaints about balance

Haha, my god that would suck.  It'd be mandatory for everyone to bring at least 1 mage w/ mana clash.

[Skellimancer]

NetBeansAndJava wrote...

Bibdy wrote...

Faerell Gustani wrote...

Sam -stone- serious wrote...

Balance about encounters, enemies, decision making, logical progression, logical intervention of the sidestories, meaningful actions, balanced mechanics as a whole. I hope you can understand what i am talking about because in this respect, meaning the games balance, was just horendous to say the least. The bugs just made the things even more obvious and tedious than they already were.

So the balance concerns that yo're speaking about are more about the AI being dumb?

If the game had more Mage opponents throwing around Fireballs, Cone of Colds, Crushing Prisons,Curses of Mortality etc. with the same frequency that the player does, I'm sure there'd be a lot more complaints about balance

Haha, my god that would suck.  It'd be mandatory for everyone to bring at least 1 mage w/ mana clash.

Enemy Mages should also cast Blizzard/Tempest over walls at the player.

[Shadow_Viper]

Inarai wrote...

Shadow_Viper wrote...

There is no such thing as a "balanced" game.

If you believe something to be "unbalanced" then do not use/play it. Simple as that.

Whether or not you decide to use/play the thing in question(class, item, etc), the choice does not require you to go running to the forums and whining needlessly.

IFSW

But the class should be available*.  And if a class breaks the game's challenge, then it's not.

*: Available might not be the right word...

The class is still available. Whether you decide to use/play it or not is up to you. For example: If I found a class unbalanced I simply would choose not to play it or use it in a way that was more challenging. If someone always decide sto use the tactics that make the game less challenging, then they should not be surprised when they find the game too easy. I wouldn't run to the forums and cry/whine about it "Wahhh bioware Mages are OP, nerf them now!!! OMG how dare u guys put that in the game!!!!!11!!!!!!11!1!elven!!!!!!!".

IFSW, and IFL2P.

[Titanmike357]

Faerell Gustani wrote...
sniped

True, he is pretty tough, not that % resists is hard to come by, juggernought + two rings and a neckalce is at least 30+% to all and 50% to some if not more, add in runes that give general magic resist plus templar skills is a mage lockdown.

TBH, my next toon will be a reaver/zerker Two hander that does AOE reaver sprit damage plue the Two AOE stun/damage and zerker, what will make this build a monster though is wynne in the back casting juvie and keeping him juced up, and he will be in med armor, nothing heavy for stamana reasons.

Thing is, i know this will destroy the game on normal, but i think it will be fun!.

Too bad I miss out on a few denerim quests that need rogue skills to even have them offered.

[MerinTB]

Not - touching - this - thread.



Which should say something about it, if you've seen what threads I will get into heated debates in.

[Shadow_Viper]

Titanmike357 wrote...

I would like to add this, rogue skill that allows backstabs when mob is stunned + mind blast = win!

QFE.

Each class has is own strengths, advantages, weaknesses and disadvantages. People really need to start realising this, and stop whining because "Omg suchandsuch class is OP!!!!!"

[themaxzero]

Skellimancer wrote...

NetBeansAndJava wrote...

Bibdy wrote...

Faerell Gustani wrote...

Sam -stone- serious wrote...

Balance about encounters, enemies, decision making, logical progression, logical intervention of the sidestories, meaningful actions, balanced mechanics as a whole. I hope you can understand what i am talking about because in this respect, meaning the games balance, was just horendous to say the least. The bugs just made the things even more obvious and tedious than they already were.

So the balance concerns that yo're speaking about are more about the AI being dumb?

If the game had more Mage opponents throwing around Fireballs, Cone of Colds, Crushing Prisons,Curses of Mortality etc. with the same frequency that the player does, I'm sure there'd be a lot more complaints about balance

Haha, my god that would suck.  It'd be mandatory for everyone to bring at least 1 mage w/ mana clash.

Enemy Mages should also cast Blizzard/Tempest over walls at the player.

They do if they have the spell eg the Blood Mage boss in the Alienage.