290 réponses à ce sujet

[Skellimancer]

Baldur's Gate 1 is the only bioware game that implimented mages in a balanced way.



The spell layout in this game is a damn joke. Spells like Cone of cold at level 3 is insane. This is (imo) the absolute worst spell system i have seen in many years.

[addiction21]

MerinTB wrote...

Not - touching - this - thread.

Which should say something about it, if you've seen what threads I will get into heated debates in.

Sissy

[Shadow_Viper]

The balance issues have actually already been addressed.

http://social.biowar...opic/15//206913

[ZtriDer1379]

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NetBeansAndJava
wrote...



I'm going to play devil's advocate, though I too welcome balance. First of all,
that glitch you write of is just that -- a glitch. Balance is not about fixing
bugs and glitches, it's about changing what is already WAI.



I believe most people who say balance doesn't matter believe this for two
reasons:



1) If bugs exist in the game, then they would rather see patches fix bugs that
balancing issues that do not break the game. By break I mean crash, freeze,
etc., not balancing.



2) You can use self-restraint to not run into balancing issues. If you think
mages are OP, then don't play them. Easy as pie.



You mention that balancing is about making other choices worthwhile... you thus
imply that underpowered classes are not worthwhile playing. This is a silly
notion, however. If you're playing the game only to feel powerful, then it's
much easier to just cheat.

Ok, lets say we have a class in the game, lets call it "donkey
trainer". He has 1 attack skill..... fork. Can use no armor and gets only
1 ability. Befriend donkey/horse.



Now, would you use him? No you would not. And still you come here and say,
"use self-restrain" and don't use that mage, use that "donkey
trainer".



Where is the fun of playing with the donkey trainer when he is totally useless?




Of cores I am exaggerating but you are a smart boy and I guess you see the
picture.

 

No matter
what you say, if the difference between the “easy” class and the “hard” class
is too big, then it is a balance issue.

 

Everyone
should be able to try every class on normal/easy without having to be an ace in
the game. The difference between a warrior and a mage today is way too big.

 

If you play
the game on easy mode, it should NOT be easy with one class and a nightmare on
an other class. That is a balance issue.

 

[Titanmike357]

[/quote]

They do if they have the spell eg the Sniped n the Alienage.

[/quote]

spolers much, just saying I don't care but i bet the spolier ****s would be on that in a hurry.

[themaxzero]

ZtriDer1379 wrote...
If you play
the game on easy mode, it should NOT be easy with one class and a nightmare on
an other class. That is a balance issue.

This is what i'm talking about. Yes, Mages are better but the gap really isn't that large.

[Haexpane]

Faerell Gustani wrote...

Titanmike357 wrote...
trying not to be snide, my rouge is a powerhouse,  I dobut a mage could top her dps on 2-3 mobs at once.

Thank you for the explaning that to me, but TBH I did kinda claim balance is not so important in a SP game.

NP, and for what it's worth, I did look at the build and weaponry used, you have a very powerful rogue build, akin to the solo builds I've seen.  The Solo builds tend to do less damage as they use daggers instead of full sized 1-handers.  I suspect it also has to do with the fact that you loaded up your main with the best equipment.

For some comparison:
http://social.biowar...&game=dragonage
42% of party damage.  I suspect that it would be over 50% like yours if I decided to control him and not morrigan most of the time.  Positioning for backstabs increases my damage output dramatically.  However, his defense was high enough such that I would frequently just let him run around on his own while I micromanaged morrigan...and this is despite the fact that I specced her to be more control/healing than direct damage, I also ignored Cone of Cold cause it was too easily abused.

Exactly, anyone can get a high "contributed damage" number w/ a 2H warrior, in fact my PC IS a 2H warrior 

no one is saying you can't generate good looking numbers with hard work.  What we are saying is anything a tank can do, a AW can do better, cheaper, faster, better (pre latest patch)

I have PS3 version so I can't test the patch.

[themaxzero]

Haexpane wrote...

Faerell Gustani wrote...

Titanmike357 wrote...
trying not to be snide, my rouge is a powerhouse,  I dobut a mage could top her dps on 2-3 mobs at once.

Thank you for the explaning that to me, but TBH I did kinda claim balance is not so important in a SP game.

NP, and for what it's worth, I did look at the build and weaponry used, you have a very powerful rogue build, akin to the solo builds I've seen.  The Solo builds tend to do less damage as they use daggers instead of full sized 1-handers.  I suspect it also has to do with the fact that you loaded up your main with the best equipment.

For some comparison:
http://social.biowar...&game=dragonage
42% of party damage.  I suspect that it would be over 50% like yours if I decided to control him and not morrigan most of the time.  Positioning for backstabs increases my damage output dramatically.  However, his defense was high enough such that I would frequently just let him run around on his own while I micromanaged morrigan...and this is despite the fact that I specced her to be more control/healing than direct damage, I also ignored Cone of Cold cause it was too easily abused.

Exactly, anyone can get a high "contributed damage" number w/ a 2H warrior, in fact my PC IS a 2H warrior 

no one is saying you can't generate good looking numbers with hard work.  What we are saying is anything a tank can do, a AW can do better, cheaper, faster, better (pre latest patch)

I have PS3 version so I can't test the patch.

My suggestion to you is to make an Arcane Warrior and take him through the game now that Shimmering Shield is fixed.

What we are saying is anything a tank can do, a AW can do better, cheaper, faster, better

And see if that statement is actually true.

You might be surprised.

[Marionetten]

Haexpane wrote...
What we are saying is anything a tank can do, a AW can do better, cheaper, faster, better (pre latest patch)

Due to a glitch with shimmering shield not behaving as intended. There is a difference between fixing glitches and rebalancing abilities.

[Haexpane]

Shadow_Viper wrote...

addiction21 wrote...

Shadow_Viper wrote...


So don't play/use Mages, problem solved.

IFSW.

Yes because not playing the game to its fullest is "fixing" the problem.

It's only a problem because you believe it to be one.

"Economic problems are mostly psychological" - GW. Bush, John McCAin, D. Cheney

umm not so much    They are "mostly psychological" only if you are mega wealthy like Bush/Cheney/McCain.  Gdub is pulling in MILLIONS on his lecture tour.   For the other 99% of the nation, pyschology has nothing to do with it.

[NetBeansAndJava]

@ZtriDer1379



That hyperbole you point out is unfair in this argument b/c no class is that useless.



"If you play the game on easy mode, it should NOT be easy with one class and a nightmare on

an other class. That is a balance issue."



Yeah, well in that case you want to buff everyone else, not nerf mages. If you nerf mages, then it's a nightmare for everyone by your analysis.



Anyway, like I said in my first post... I'm just playing devil's advocate here. I actually do think the balancing changes were worth while.

[Titanmike357]

Haexpane wrote...

Faerell Gustani wrote...

Titanmike357 wrote...
trying not to be snide, my rouge is a powerhouse,  I dobut a mage could top her dps on 2-3 mobs at once.

Thank you for the explaning that to me, but TBH I did kinda claim balance is not so important in a SP game.

NP, and for what it's worth, I did look at the build and weaponry used, you have a very powerful rogue build, akin to the solo builds I've seen.  The Solo builds tend to do less damage as they use daggers instead of full sized 1-handers.  I suspect it also has to do with the fact that you loaded up your main with the best equipment.

For some comparison:
http://social.biowar...&game=dragonage
42% of party damage.  I suspect that it would be over 50% like yours if I decided to control him and not morrigan most of the time.  Positioning for backstabs increases my damage output dramatically.  However, his defense was high enough such that I would frequently just let him run around on his own while I micromanaged morrigan...and this is despite the fact that I specced her to be more control/healing than direct damage, I also ignored Cone of Cold cause it was too easily abused.

Exactly, anyone can get a high "contributed damage" number w/ a 2H warrior, in fact my PC IS a 2H warrior 

no one is saying you can't generate good looking numbers with hard work.  What we are saying is anything a tank can do, a AW can do better, cheaper, faster, better (pre latest patch)

I have PS3 version so I can't test the patch.

Hit there you seemed to have missed this important part of what I said Shale, sten ( mage ) me!

[Haexpane]

Shadow_Viper wrote...

Titanmike357 wrote...

I would like to add this, rogue skill that allows backstabs when mob is stunned + mind blast = win!

QFE.

Each class has is own strengths, advantages, weaknesses and disadvantages. People really need to start realising this, and stop whining because "Omg suchandsuch class is OP!!!!!"

How many more troll attempts will you post accusing people of "whining" ?  That is worthless.

[Haexpane]

Titanmike357 wrote...

Haexpane wrote...

Faerell Gustani wrote...

Titanmike357 wrote...
trying not to be snide, my rouge is a powerhouse,  I dobut a mage could top her dps on 2-3 mobs at once.

Thank you for the explaning that to me, but TBH I did kinda claim balance is not so important in a SP game.

NP, and for what it's worth, I did look at the build and weaponry used, you have a very powerful rogue build, akin to the solo builds I've seen.  The Solo builds tend to do less damage as they use daggers instead of full sized 1-handers.  I suspect it also has to do with the fact that you loaded up your main with the best equipment.

For some comparison:
http://social.biowar...&game=dragonage
42% of party damage.  I suspect that it would be over 50% like yours if I decided to control him and not morrigan most of the time.  Positioning for backstabs increases my damage output dramatically.  However, his defense was high enough such that I would frequently just let him run around on his own while I micromanaged morrigan...and this is despite the fact that I specced her to be more control/healing than direct damage, I also ignored Cone of Cold cause it was too easily abused.

Exactly, anyone can get a high "contributed damage" number w/ a 2H warrior, in fact my PC IS a 2H warrior 

no one is saying you can't generate good looking numbers with hard work.  What we are saying is anything a tank can do, a AW can do better, cheaper, faster, better (pre latest patch)

I have PS3 version so I can't test the patch.

Hit there you seemed to have missed this important part of what I said Shale, sten ( mage ) me!

Someone else mentioned how DPS is not what makes a mage OP....

themaxzero wrote...
 

My suggestion to you is to make an Arcane Warrior and take him through the game now that Shimmering Shield is fixed.

What we are saying is anything a tank can do, a AW can do better, cheaper, faster, better

And see if that statement is actually true.

You might be surprised.

I hope so, but I have PS3 version so IDK when/if patch is coming...

[nicodeemus327]

The game is balanced around having an entire party ie four people. It's not balanced around a single class. This means the power of individual classes can vary so long as the entire group has everything its needs to complete the content.

[ZtriDer1379]

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Shadow_Viper
wrote...

Slayer D wrote...

NetBeansAndJava wrote...

Slayer D wrote...



And what if you really like to play mages? Should you have to research what
spells are too powerful and intentionally gimp yourself to get satisfying game
play?



The biggest thing wrong about your #2 is that it's the game designer's JOB to
balance the classes. Not the consumer's. Simple as pie.

It's all a matter of what is "satisfying".  Some feel that being
OP is satifying... as demonstrated by many who voiced their opinion against the
patch.



As for whether or not it's the designer's job or the consumer's to balance
classes... well ultimately it is the consumer's responsibility to make the
choices that he/she feels will create the best gaming experience.  Should
DLC armor, be removed b/c it's clearly OP for being something so easily
obtained?  Some would say yes... others would say no.

If I chose nightmare but mages make it easy, something is wrong.  If
I wanted easy, I'd pick easy.  

So don't play/use Mages, problem solved.



IFSW.

A typical steriotype geek answer.



If the game is not balance, don't play it.

If a class is not balance, don't play it. (because I can play my class, so
the game is balanced, you are just stupid)



Ignorance is bliss. Looks like ignorance and empathy is quite often related.
Some people are so narrow sighted that they can't see what is right, even if
you slam it in their face with a patch note on follow, they will still grab
hold on to their belief like an fanatic religious extreminist.


All they think is, "im right and you are worng"

 

[themaxzero]

ZtriDer1379 wrote...

All they think is, "im right and you are worng"

We are arguing RPG balance on the Internet.

We are all geeks here. Including you.

Modifié par themaxzero, 08 décembre 2009 - 09:35 .

[ZtriDer1379]

NetBeansAndJava wrote...

@ZtriDer1379

That hyperbole you point out is unfair in this argument b/c no class is that useless.

"If you play the game on easy mode, it should NOT be easy with one class and a nightmare on
an other class. That is a balance issue."

Yeah, well in that case you want to buff everyone else, not nerf mages. If you nerf mages, then it's a nightmare for everyone by your analysis.

Anyway, like I said in my first post... I'm just playing devil's advocate here. I actually do think the balancing changes were worth while.

To be honest, I would like to see mages being "nerfed" to increase the challenge by playing one. As it is now, it is a walk in the park with 2 mages in the gruop. It is so easy that it is not fun any more. I will just trough the game and swap back to my rogue and try a new group setup that is a bit mroe challence and rewording.

[Wolfva2]

I think they should write a mod that would introduce completely balanced play. Every character type will do the exact same damage, no matter what. Every weapon, the same damage. Every spell, the same damage. Just different names. SO, a mage can have 'cone of cold' that freezes everyone in front of him, a warrior will have 'shout' that paralyzes everyone in front of him, a rogue will have 'sneaky rogue ability' that stops everyone in front of him, an archer will have 'cone of stunning arrows' that well you get the idea.



See, THAT would be balance. Balance=equality. Equality=same. So, when people complain about balance, in a way they're complaining that things should all be the same. The idea of different classes having different jobs doesn't fit in with that world view. Every thing must be identical. Because if it ISN'T identical, then someone might do a little more damage. And if they can do a little more damage...then it isn't balanced. Don't believe me? Get a level balance and fill up the cups. You'll notice the only time it is in balance...is when everything is the same.



What I truly wish is people would just stop insisting that the ONLY way the game can possibly be fun is if THEIR idea of balance was instituted. Hey, play the game the way you want and have fun. That's ALL you have to do. Let others play the game the way THEY want to so THEY can have fun. Not so hard to do, is it? (he asked, knowing full well it is. People are busybodies, afterall)

[Haexpane]

Wolfva2 wrote...

I think they should write a mod that would introduce completely balanced play. Every character type will do the exact same damage, no matter what. Every weapon, the same damage. Every spell, the same damage. Just different names. SO, a mage can have 'cone of cold' that freezes everyone in front of him, a warrior will have 'shout' that paralyzes everyone in front of him, a rogue will have 'sneaky rogue ability' that stops everyone in front of him, an archer will have 'cone of stunning arrows' that well you get the idea.
 

Did you copy and paste that from 1998?   No one said balance = everyone the same.  Please try reading some posts next time before you copy and paste an old rant from Everquest 1999

[themaxzero]

Haexpane wrote...

Wolfva2 wrote...

I think they should write a mod that would introduce completely balanced play. Every character type will do the exact same damage, no matter what. Every weapon, the same damage. Every spell, the same damage. Just different names. SO, a mage can have 'cone of cold' that freezes everyone in front of him, a warrior will have 'shout' that paralyzes everyone in front of him, a rogue will have 'sneaky rogue ability' that stops everyone in front of him, an archer will have 'cone of stunning arrows' that well you get the idea.
 

Did you copy and paste that from 1998?   No one said balance = everyone the same.  Please try reading some posts next time before you copy and paste an old rant from Everquest 1999

He is right though. True balance only occurs when everything is the same. With differences in classes there will always be some imbalance then question is how much.

[nicodeemus327]

Haexpane wrote...
Did you copy and paste that from 1998?   No one said balance = everyone the same.  Please try reading some posts next time before you copy and paste an old rant from Everquest 1999

He has a point though.

[Bibdy]

Out of curiosity, has anyone else been playing Mass Effect on Hardcore or higher difficulty setting lately? I picked it up again on my Xbox, in anticipation of ME2, and decided to do some achievements I haven't done yet. I'm going through as a Sentinel with Tali and Williams and my GOD I'm getting my ass kicked every planet I land on. The pirates are just ripping me to shreds everywhere I go.

That's a game that has some pretty bad single-player balance (and in fact, gameplay) issues when they give me a wide-range of areas to explore, but the vast majority of them are going to royally kick my ass. I haven't played it in like a year, so I have no idea which systems are designed for being a lower level character the moment you leave the Citadel.

I'm happy I don't have to say that about DA:O, thanks to scaling encounters.

[Titanmike357]

themaxzero wrote...

ZtriDer1379 wrote...

All they think is, "im right and you are worng"

We are arguing RPG balance on the Internet.

We are all geeks here. Including you.

No, I am the only nerd here, I own real armor ( 4 in 1 chain ) and a great helm.

[Bibdy]

Wolfva2 wrote...

What I truly wish is people would just stop insisting that the ONLY way the game can possibly be fun is if THEIR idea of balance was instituted. Hey, play the game the way you want and have fun. That's ALL you have to do. Let others play the game the way THEY want to so THEY can have fun. Not so hard to do, is it? (he asked, knowing full well it is. People are busybodies, afterall)

Probably the only astute observation on game balance in the whole thread.

Everything in this thread up til now has been 'imbalance means its not fun, therefore I will complain about imbalances until my voice is heard'. Where does this rule come from?