290 réponses à ce sujet

[Faerell Gustani]

Shadow_Viper wrote...

nicodeemus327 wrote...

The game is balanced around having an entire party ie four people. It's not balanced around a single class. This means the power of individual classes can vary so long as the entire group has everything its needs to complete the content.

QFE.

Well said, many people seem to conveniently overlook this.

No, we don't overlook this.  We recognize that party roles include Damage, Tanking, CC, and Healing.
The reason why pre-patch mages were considered OP is because they could cover all 4 fields and do so better than the other classes in certain instances.  So the power of individual classes and characters affects the power of the party.
In short, you can't build a house on shoddy foundation.

Foundation being the class mechanics, and House being the party.

[Pellegrin]

Agreed with what the OP says which is that:

Game balance matters!

We can argue about whether or not the game is balanced and that's fine because people have differing opinions. But if a class is way OP or UP that has to be changed to allow for proper enjoyment based on proper difficulty.

[Shadow_Viper]

ZtriDer1379 wrote...



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Shadow_Viper
wrote...

Slayer D wrote...

NetBeansAndJava wrote...

Slayer D wrote...



And what if you really like to play mages? Should you have to research what
spells are too powerful and intentionally gimp yourself to get satisfying game
play?



The biggest thing wrong about your #2 is that it's the game designer's JOB to
balance the classes. Not the consumer's. Simple as pie.

It's all a matter of what is "satisfying".  Some feel that being
OP is satifying... as demonstrated by many who voiced their opinion against the
patch.



As for whether or not it's the designer's job or the consumer's to balance
classes... well ultimately it is the consumer's responsibility to make the
choices that he/she feels will create the best gaming experience.  Should
DLC armor, be removed b/c it's clearly OP for being something so easily
obtained?  Some would say yes... others would say no.

If I chose nightmare but mages make it easy, something is wrong.  If
I wanted easy, I'd pick easy.  

So don't play/use Mages, problem solved.



IFSW.

A typical steriotype geek answer.



If the game is not balance, don't play it.

If a class is not balance, don't play it. (because I can play my class, so
the game is balanced, you are just stupid)



Ignorance is bliss. Looks like ignorance and empathy is quite often related.
Some people are so narrow sighted that they can't see what is right, even if
you slam it in their face with a patch note on follow, they will still grab
hold on to their belief like an fanatic religious extreminist.


All they think is, "im right and you are worng"

 

Just because you claim a class to be "broken," "overpowered," or "unbalanced," doesn't mean it is.

I can claim that the sky is green all day, but clearly the sky is not green. It's blue.

[Faerell Gustani]

Shadow_Viper wrote...
Just because you claim a class to be "broken," "overpowered," or "unbalanced," doesn't mean it is.

I can claim that the sky is green all day, but clearly the sky is not green. It's blue.

So by your logic, just because you claim that "it's fine" doesn't mean that it is.
I suppose the difference is that the people claiming broken/overpowered have generated numbers and statistics to try and support their claims.

[Shadow_Viper]

ZtriDer1379 wrote...

NetBeansAndJava wrote...

@ZtriDer1379

That hyperbole you point out is unfair in this argument b/c no class is that useless.

"If you play the game on easy mode, it should NOT be easy with one class and a nightmare on
an other class. That is a balance issue."

Yeah, well in that case you want to buff everyone else, not nerf mages. If you nerf mages, then it's a nightmare for everyone by your analysis.

Anyway, like I said in my first post... I'm just playing devil's advocate here. I actually do think the balancing changes were worth while.

To be honest, I would like to see mages being "nerfed" to increase the challenge by playing one. As it is now, it is a walk in the park with 2 mages in the gruop. It is so easy that it is not fun any more. I will just trough the game and swap back to my rogue and try a new group setup that is a bit mroe challence and rewording.

So the obvious solution/answer is to refrain from using two mages(or any mages depending on your opinions). You should now find the game more "challenging" and less "easy".

Imagine that.

[Skellimancer]

Shadow_Viper wrote...


Just because you claim a class to be "broken," "overpowered," or "unbalanced," doesn't mean it is.

I can claim that the sky is green all day, but clearly the sky is not green. It's blue.

0/10

Mages are imbalanced, greatly.

You don't even need to be an AW/?? to be overpowered. Mages can clear whole groups of enemies from behind walls with no chance of agro. If Bioware had any decency they would force all spells to require a line of sight.

[Faerell Gustani]

Shadow_Viper wrote...

ZtriDer1379 wrote...

NetBeansAndJava wrote...

@ZtriDer1379

That hyperbole you point out is unfair in this argument b/c no class is that useless.

"If you play the game on easy mode, it should NOT be easy with one class and a nightmare on
an other class. That is a balance issue."

Yeah, well in that case you want to buff everyone else, not nerf mages. If you nerf mages, then it's a nightmare for everyone by your analysis.

Anyway, like I said in my first post... I'm just playing devil's advocate here. I actually do think the balancing changes were worth while.

To be honest, I would like to see mages being "nerfed" to increase the challenge by playing one. As it is now, it is a walk in the park with 2 mages in the gruop. It is so easy that it is not fun any more. I will just trough the game and swap back to my rogue and try a new group setup that is a bit mroe challence and rewording.

So the obvious solution/answer is to refrain from using two mages(or any mages depending on your opinions). You should now find the game more "challenging" and less "easy".

Imagine that.

Shadow Viper's solution to problems:
http://www.melih.com...11/ostridge.jpg

[Shadow_Viper]

Wolfva2 wrote...

I think they should write a mod that would introduce completely balanced play. Every character type will do the exact same damage, no matter what. Every weapon, the same damage. Every spell, the same damage. Just different names. SO, a mage can have 'cone of cold' that freezes everyone in front of him, a warrior will have 'shout' that paralyzes everyone in front of him, a rogue will have 'sneaky rogue ability' that stops everyone in front of him, an archer will have 'cone of stunning arrows' that well you get the idea.

See, THAT would be balance. Balance=equality. Equality=same. So, when people complain about balance, in a way they're complaining that things should all be the same. The idea of different classes having different jobs doesn't fit in with that world view. Every thing must be identical. Because if it ISN'T identical, then someone might do a little more damage. And if they can do a little more damage...then it isn't balanced. Don't believe me? Get a level balance and fill up the cups. You'll notice the only time it is in balance...is when everything is the same.

What I truly wish is people would just stop insisting that the ONLY way the game can possibly be fun is if THEIR idea of balance was instituted. Hey, play the game the way you want and have fun. That's ALL you have to do. Let others play the game the way THEY want to so THEY can have fun. Not so hard to do, is it? (he asked, knowing full well it is. People are busybodies, afterall)

QFE, very well said.

Some people just aren't going to be happy until the game consists of a single class, a single race and just a single ability.

[Bibdy]

Faerell Gustani wrote...

Shadow Viper's solution to problems:
http://www.melih.com...11/ostridge.jpg

Amen. I'm in the 'game balance isn't that big of a deal to me' camp, too, Viper, but christ, come up with an argument with at least some substance.

[FlintlockJazz]

People, people please, let's face facts: mages may be overpowered, but they are still not as awesome as me. That is all.

[Shadow_Viper]

Inarai wrote...

Shadow_Viper wrote...

Inarai wrote...

Shadow_Viper wrote...

There is no such thing as a "balanced" game.

If you believe something to be "unbalanced" then do not use/play it. Simple as that.

Whether or not you decide to use/play the thing in question(class, item, etc), the choice does not require you to go running to the forums and whining needlessly.

IFSW

But the class should be available*.  And if a class breaks the game's challenge, then it's not.

*: Available might not be the right word...

The class is still available. Whether you decide to use/play it or not is up to you. For example: If I found a class unbalanced I simply would choose not to play it or use it in a way that was more challenging. If someone always decide sto use the tactics that make the game less challenging, then they should not be surprised when they find the game too easy. I wouldn't run to the forums and cry/whine about it "Wahhh bioware Mages are OP, nerf them now!!! OMG how dare u guys put that in the game!!!!!11!!!!!!11!1!elven!!!!!!!".

IFSW, and IFL2P.

As I said, available might be the wrong word...  Fun would be a good one - and the game is designed to be fun from a CHALLENGE standpoint.  Where is that in an AW/BM?

If you do not find those two classes fun, and it's that big of an issue for you. Don't use/play them. Simple as that.

[Skellimancer]

If anything Mages seem to be aimed at beginners and the less skilled who have trouble with easy mode.



Maybe its good that they have an overpowered crutch to fall back on.

[Faerell Gustani]

Skellimancer wrote...

If anything Mages seem to be aimed at beginners and the less skilled who have trouble with easy mode.

Maybe its good that they have an overpowered crutch to fall back on.

Ideally though, that "crutch" is supposed to be called "easy mode".

[Shadow_Viper]

Inarai wrote...

Shadow_Viper wrote...

Skellimancer wrote...

Arcane Warrior is a bad joke. No doubt made for the Kensai/Mage scrubs that plagued BG2.

So you're whining about "balance" in an attempt to ruin other people's fun by getting a class nerfed just because you dislike it....

Nice.

Or perhaps because she wants a balanced and fun hybrid class to play - I know I do.

Which exists, so just have fun and play the game.

[Shadow_Viper]

Tirigon wrote...

I had great fun with an AW/BM mage. Im also having great fun with my dualwielding dwarfen warrior now. Though he is, at least up to now, even stronger than my AW. With my AW, I switched between having Wynne and Morrigan, only one of them, and no other mage at all with me, and each one was fun. Actually, except for 1 lockpicker I´d choose the companions who you like the most anyways, not the strongest ones.

And if you really think AW arent funny because they are too strong, play on a higher difficulty, or with worse equipment, or say to yourself "no, I wont use shimmering shield now to make this fight more interesting" Or, thats the best way, just enjoy being strong. Get the mod that makes deathblows on every kill and have fun going around killing the darkspawn in masses, beheading them and so forth.
If youre strong, you do either have a good build, so you deserve being strong, or you are abusing glitches, then its your own fault.

QFE, well said.

For every whiner, there is someone who disagrees and thinks the game is just fine and perfectly enjoyable/fun.

[jisan74]

SheffSteel wrote...

I've argued this point of view for a while now. A well designed game should be balanced, and the number of players does not alter that. Balance may be more of an obvious critical issue in multiplayer games - particularly games with competitive gameplay - but that does not mean that it is not an issue in any other game.

A good working definition of balance, in the context of DAO, is that assuming that my party contains a mage, warrior, and rogue, I ought to be able to put any character into the fourth slot without radically altering the game difficulty (which is quite properly a separate setting in the options menu).

I also don't like the argument that you should simply avoid things you don't like. That precludes ever identifying and understanding problems, much less solving them.

I agree with you on this to.But from playing the game i find based upon the abilities you pick and classes you have it not always true.I played the the game with 2 warriors one rogue and one mage and found the game pretty easy most of the time.While  playing with 3 rogues and a mage the game got more difficult .Also the way you pick your talents and abilities scores to effect the game a lot as well.For example my archer rogue was having a hard time in fights until i made a major boost in dex.That's when thing got easier.Truth is if the game was balanced it shouldn't have mattered if i did the major boost in dex.I find from playing the game they put to many enemies in some encounters which also cause a major inbalance in the game.I'm a pen paper player of D&D and star wars
I'm always as a gm trying to keep the encounters with my players balanced so that there not to hard or easy.no matter what kind of character there playing.

[Shadow_Viper]

Skellimancer wrote...

Shadow_Viper wrote...

Skellimancer wrote...

Baldur's Gate 1 is the only bioware game that implimented mages in a balanced way.

The spell layout in this game is a damn joke. Spells like Cone of cold at level 3 is insane. This is (imo) the absolute worst spell system i have seen in many years.

So don't use the spell or the system if it is that big of a deal for you. Either way, the choice doesn't requiring running to the forums and crying.

Here's an idea, how about instead of just whining about your "issue," you actually make some constructive suggestions on how to improve the problems you feel the game has.

Thats rich coming from you.

I'm sure it is.

Just remember...

IFSW.

[Shadow_Viper]

SheffSteel wrote...

Skellimancer wrote...

Shadow_Viper wrote...

 whining

Thats rich coming from you.

I just wish Shadow Viper would whine less and make more constructive posts.

Transference much? 

[Shadow_Viper]

Faerell Gustani wrote...

Shadow_Viper wrote...

Skellimancer wrote...

Baldur's Gate 1 is the only bioware game that implimented mages in a balanced way.

The spell layout in this game is a damn joke. Spells like Cone of cold at level 3 is insane. This is (imo) the absolute worst spell system i have seen in many years.

So don't use the spell or the system if it is that big of a deal for you. Either way, the choice doesn't requiring running to the forums and crying.

Here's an idea, how about instead of just whining about your "issue," you actually make some constructive suggestions on how to improve the problems you feel the game has.

We're humans not osteridges.  We deal with problems and find solutions rather than bury our heads in the dirt.  If you would like to mimic a lower lifeform's approach to problems, that's your call.  Suggesting that others do the same is rather laughable.
http://www.melih.com...11/ostridge.jpg

As pointed out before, just because you believe something to be a problem, doesn't mean is actually is.

[Faerell Gustani]

Shadow_Viper wrote...

Faerell Gustani wrote...

Shadow_Viper wrote...

Skellimancer wrote...

Baldur's Gate 1 is the only bioware game that implimented mages in a balanced way.

The spell layout in this game is a damn joke. Spells like Cone of cold at level 3 is insane. This is (imo) the absolute worst spell system i have seen in many years.

So don't use the spell or the system if it is that big of a deal for you. Either way, the choice doesn't requiring running to the forums and crying.

Here's an idea, how about instead of just whining about your "issue," you actually make some constructive suggestions on how to improve the problems you feel the game has.

We're humans not osteridges.  We deal with problems and find solutions rather than bury our heads in the dirt.  If you would like to mimic a lower lifeform's approach to problems, that's your call.  Suggesting that others do the same is rather laughable.
http://www.melih.com...11/ostridge.jpg

As pointed out before, just because you believe something to be a problem, doesn't mean is actually is.

Similarly, just becaue you believe it's not a problem doesn't mean it's not osteridge boy.

[Shadow_Viper]

Skellimancer wrote...

Shadow_Viper wrote...


Just because you claim a class to be "broken," "overpowered," or "unbalanced," doesn't mean it is.

I can claim that the sky is green all day, but clearly the sky is not green. It's blue.

0/10

Mages are imbalanced, greatly.

You don't even need to be an AW/?? to be overpowered. Mages can clear whole groups of enemies from behind walls with no chance of agro. If Bioware had any decency they would force all spells to require a line of sight.

You are aware that this is not a popularity contest, yes?

You're on the right track, but next time, I would try offering the suggestion without the flamebaiting remark towards the game developers.

[Shadow_Viper]

Skellimancer wrote...

If anything Mages seem to be aimed at beginners and the less skilled who have trouble with easy mode.

Maybe its good that they have an overpowered crutch to fall back on.

Once again, just because you believe something to be "overpowered" doesn't mean it is.

Do try to pay attention.

[Shadow_Viper]

Faerell Gustani wrote...

Shadow_Viper wrote...

Faerell Gustani wrote...

Shadow_Viper wrote...

Skellimancer wrote...

Baldur's Gate 1 is the only bioware game that implimented mages in a balanced way.

The spell layout in this game is a damn joke. Spells like Cone of cold at level 3 is insane. This is (imo) the absolute worst spell system i have seen in many years.

So don't use the spell or the system if it is that big of a deal for you. Either way, the choice doesn't requiring running to the forums and crying.

Here's an idea, how about instead of just whining about your "issue," you actually make some constructive suggestions on how to improve the problems you feel the game has.

We're humans not osteridges.  We deal with problems and find solutions rather than bury our heads in the dirt.  If you would like to mimic a lower lifeform's approach to problems, that's your call.  Suggesting that others do the same is rather laughable.
http://www.melih.com...11/ostridge.jpg

As pointed out before, just because you believe something to be a problem, doesn't mean is actually is.

Similarly, just becaue you believe it's not a problem doesn't mean it's not osteridge boy.

Aye, however I'm not the one whining and crying on a game forum in an attempt to get the game needlessly changed. How about the people who think/believe the game is fine as is, their fun/enjoyment is just as important as your own.

[Faerell Gustani]

We usually provide statistics and numbers for why we believe that mages are OP. You just provide an opinion without supporting evidence.

[Shadow_Viper]

Faerell Gustani wrote...

We usually provide statistics and numbers for why we believe that mages are OP. You just provide an opinion without supporting evidence.

I can easily fabricate statistics and numbers as well. There's just no point.