230 réponses à ce sujet

[KosakNZ]

Deathstroke123 wrote...

Ah, good to see you're thinking about it subjectively. Hmm, yes, quite a few paradoxs there... but who's to say the paradoxs aren't placed for a reason? Who's to say the Reaper leader ISN'T lying to you?

This was my point in the earlier posts. You take these points and you use them to formulate your own ideas on what happened at the end. This has been used in sci fi countless times before, by other remarkable and noteworthy films and books. And this is the purpose of the ending.

Boom. Did I just blow your MIND?

Of course I thought he was lying to me. But for some reason it never crosses Shepard's mind does it? You don't get to press the nonsense things he says, he gives you 3 choices, his opinion on them and thats it. You have to pick one of them.

[Muhkida]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

As much as it is it's irrelevant to the movie, it has different canon than the books, so it's just pure speculation as to why Gandalf and the rest of them never got on an eagle and delivered it to the volcano, especially as Gandalf could easily repell the fell beasts.

It's the same with Harry Potter. Anyone that's seen the 7th movie; How did Snape find them at random in the woods?

Yeah I'm not fully convinced that dropping the ring from the sky is not possible.  Maybe one of the eagles can perfrom many a fine "do a barrel role" and reach it's destination for a joking example.  Either way, I should really read the book.

[bahamutomega]

dmonorato wrote...

blacqout wrote...

StElmo wrote...

blacqout wrote...

The only people i see claiming to be somehow better than others in this thread, are those that didn't like the ending.

How so?

You posted a thread attempting to denigrate those of us that were satisfied with the way the game concluded. Basically, you're suggesting that we're all psuedo-intellectuals.

I don't think he's doing that at all, as a matter of fact most of the Pro-end post I have read degenerate into to " if you don't understand the endings your dumb" Usually posted by someone with "Sheppard deserves better fans" in their sig.

We have all seen numerous post (too many to count) on why the endings suck, don't make sense, have plot holes or whatever. What I have yet to see is a post by any pro-ender that explains why they thought the ending was good,and how they were able to explain away all the plot holes and inconsistencies with out massive speculation on what Bioware was attempting to say in thier ending.

actually, actually reading what the OP says, he's right.  it just comes out poorly.

the vast majority of the "pro-enders" fail to back up their claims that "the ending was great - i totally get it" - why?  because when pressed, they fail to provide any explanation as to what meaning there was in the ending.  which lends credence to the OP's post that the majority of the pro-enders are simply saying that they get it so they can appear intelligent and meaningful.

i have come across a single article that does try to provide an explanation, with evidence, for the endings as they stand now.  i will warn you: this is a VERY lengthy read.

http://galacticpillo...ffect-3-ending/

however, this entire article boils down to the very thing that the OP stated:  the author of this article is looking down their nose at people who are arguing for different endings.  the author believes that if people "simply understood" the very complex and esoteric theories and hypotheses they have mentioned, the endings would be much clearer.

i have heard people say that they don't mind the ending - each one of them never having played ME or ME2.  but even saying that, they admit that they don't have the history with the series - they don't know what they are missing.  they've admitted that.  they are not trying to get me to understand something by repeating "you just don't get it" over and over to me (which is what most of the pro-enders sound like).

[An English Gamer]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

An English Gamer wrote...

To be honest I can't see how someone could like the ending. When I think of it I don't think of how senseless it is. I don't think of how all 3 ending are the same. I think of how with that ending the universe I was immersed in is now destroyed with the destruction of the Mass Relays. I think of how the crew and characters I've become attatched to are almost all going to die. I think of how stupid it seems that it ended up like this despite obvious alternatives.

How someone could like the ending when it quite frankly destroys the Mass Effect universe is beyond my comprehension.

Also to those that are like "Oh, you're not supposed to get an ultimate conclusion. You're meant to decide from your own experience what happens in the end." If Lord of the Rings ended with Frodo dissapearing over the edge in mt Doom before it cut to credits would that have been better?

You DO realize that the Relays didn't go supernova, don't you?

You DO realize that nothing in-game acts as evidence against that right? Besides, I wasn't literal about the "destroys the Mass Effect universe".

[Deathstroke123]

KosakNZ wrote...

Deathstroke123 wrote...

Ah, good to see you're thinking about it subjectively. Hmm, yes, quite a few paradoxs there... but who's to say the paradoxs aren't placed for a reason? Who's to say the Reaper leader ISN'T lying to you?

This was my point in the earlier posts. You take these points and you use them to formulate your own ideas on what happened at the end. This has been used in sci fi countless times before, by other remarkable and noteworthy films and books. And this is the purpose of the ending.

Boom. Did I just blow your MIND?

Of course I thought he was lying to me. But for some reason it never crosses Shepard's mind does it? You don't get to press the nonsense things he says, he gives you 3 choices, his opinion on them and thats it. You have to pick one of them.

That's called dramatic irony, my friend. You know something that the main character doesn't. Been used since Shakespeare's time.

[Iwillbeback]

David7204 wrote...

I had a professor once who said that to be a great, a story had to have a political message.

What a complete idiot.

And that guy somehow landed a job at a university. So yes, I'm sure there's people like that.

He probably helps the Government spread lies.

[Peranor]

One of the reasons for the conflict between pro and anti-enders is that many pro-enders is perfectly fine with filling out plot-holes and inconsistencies with more speculations to make a complete story.
And many anti-enders just don't buy that. They want it shown on screen, by the writers what actually happened and how it affected the galaxy in the immediate future.
And there can never be an agreement upon the ending between those two kind of people. We could argue this till the end of time and there still wouldn't be an agreement =)

Modifié par anorling, 07 mai 2012 - 08:34 .

[wolfsite]

Most just want the plot holes and contradictions fixed.

In my first game I got the Quarians and Geth to find peace and Joker/EDI to get into a relationship which makes the Starchilds arguement invalid.  However you are never allowed to point this out which makes those entire segments pointless to do and also gives the appearance that it doesn't matter how you play the game since it appears to lead to the same conclussion regardless of decision.

[BD Manchild]

I think the OP's got a point. I remember reading Yahtzee's Extra Punctuation column on the subject, and thinking "what utter bollocks". It sounded like he was trying to be deep, going on about the series being a losing battle against inevitability or something, when to my mind that's a load of pseudo-intellectual nonsense based on what I feel is a complete misinterpretation of the themes of the series which doesn't even apply to everyone (for instance, he claims that the Krogan Wars will start up again if the genophage is cured; I really can't see that happening with Wrex and Bakara in the hot-seat).

It also didn't help that he basically called everyone who dislikes the ending a massive ****, which is the general tone I see in a lot of Pro-Ender posts (Christ, I can't believe I'm using such terms). He also pulls the "setting a precedent" card, which has been proven time and again to be complete rubbish.

Modifié par BD Manchild, 07 mai 2012 - 08:38 .

[KosakNZ]

Deathstroke123 wrote...

That's called dramatic irony, my friend. You know something that the main character doesn't. Been used since Shakespeare's time.

Except in this case it is also Shepard acting remarkably out of character at a crucial moment. Or suffering from head trauma, but that doesn't really help make the ending satisfying or good does it? Neither does saying the SC is a lier and Shepard's an easy mark (when we know he's not).

[rachellouise]

 actually I quite like the ending, and I couldn't care less if other people like it or not. Of course i'll listen to the opinions of others,  doesn't matter that it's different. it only bothers me when they act like my opinion is wrong because it is not theirs (now that is ego driven, thinking only their view on it should exist, only their interpretation is correct  etc.)

Modifié par rachellouise, 07 mai 2012 - 09:13 .

[Necrotron]

That Nietzsche quote is quite fantastic.

[pro5]

I used to hate the ending.

Now I actually like what they tried to do, EXCEPT how it was poorly delivered in certain aspects, and with a condition that the real ending will be provided to us in the Extended Cut.

Reasons why I changed my mind are in my sig.

Modifié par pro5, 07 mai 2012 - 09:17 .

[Iwillbeback]

rachellouise wrote...

 actually I quite like the ending, and I couldn't care less if other people like it or not. Of course i'll listen to the opinions of others,  doesn't matter that it's different. it only bothers me when they act like my opinion is wrong because it is not theirs (now that is ego driven, thinking only their view on it should exist etc.)

What do you like about the ending?

[Necrotron]

rachellouise wrote...

 actually I quite like the ending, and I couldn't care less if other people like it or not. Of course i'll listen to the opinions of others,  doesn't matter that it's different. it only bothers me when they act like my opinion is wrong because it is not theirs (now that is ego driven, thinking only their view on it should exist, only their interpretation is correct  etc.)

Good point.

I think that people can like or dislike the endings for many reasons, and nothing wrong with any of those opinions.  I think the original post is making a point how many seem to like the ending just for the point of enjoying how deep it was seemingly, which is obviously not your motivation.

Modifié par Bathaius, 07 mai 2012 - 09:16 .

[Psychlonus]

Deathstroke123 wrote...

You aren't stupid because the ending is meant to be deep; You're stupid because you're taking the ending at face value and completely ignoring all of the games foreshadowing.

Here's some homework: Watch the movies Blade Runner and Minority Report. Both are exemplary sci fi films that the genre proudly embraces, and they have just as open endings as ME3 did.

In all cases, the point is to be interpretive. All the theories being made about the ending is the desired response. It allows people to craft their own canon ending without the ending forcing a canon ending on them. With BR's and MR's ending, the fans saw this and embraced them, coming up with many ideas about what happened after the credits rolled. Each believes their ending to be the correct one, and overall, most people were satisfied.

Then ME3 came out and proved to me once and for all that Bioware fans collectively are pretty ****ing stupid; The ones who came up with and support the Indoctrination Theory are an exception, as they got the point of the ending, to draw upon clues and make your own conclusion. For those with on iota of creativity, this isn't a problem. Others, however, need to be hand held and have every little thing explained to them: Did so and so retire? Did so and so get married? Did so and so get a house on the beach and a puppy? Get ****ing real. Bioware's job isn't to animate your fan fiction.

So now, the consensus of the BSN has forced Biowares hand, and now, to satisfy you petulant whiners, the clarification DLC that they're going to release may very well replace the current ending (in which you actually have to use a scrap of brain power for and think about it) with a cliche "The universe defeats the Reapers with the power of love and friendship and everyone lived idyllic happy little lives for all eternity, the end" ending. GG, guys. GG.

I think you have proven that Blade Runner and Minority Report were well executed and Mass Effect was not.

[Reorte]

Deathstroke123 wrote...

You aren't stupid because the ending is meant to be deep; You're stupid because you're taking the ending at face value and completely ignoring all of the games foreshadowing.

Here's some homework: Watch the movies Blade Runner and Minority Report. Both are exemplary sci fi films that the genre proudly embraces, and they have just as open endings as ME3 did.

In all cases, the point is to be interpretive. All the theories being made about the ending is the desired response. It allows people to craft their own canon ending without the ending forcing a canon ending on them. With BR's and MR's ending, the fans saw this and embraced them, coming up with many ideas about what happened after the credits rolled. Each believes their ending to be the correct one, and overall, most people were satisfied.

Then ME3 came out and proved to me once and for all that Bioware fans collectively are pretty ****ing stupid; The ones who came up with and support the Indoctrination Theory are an exception, as they got the point of the ending, to draw upon clues and make your own conclusion. For those with on iota of creativity, this isn't a problem. Others, however, need to be hand held and have every little thing explained to them: Did so and so retire? Did so and so get married? Did so and so get a house on the beach and a puppy? Get ****ing real. Bioware's job isn't to animate your fan fiction.

So now, the consensus of the BSN has forced Biowares hand, and now, to satisfy you petulant whiners, the clarification DLC that they're going to release may very well replace the current ending (in which you actually have to use a scrap of brain power for and think about it) with a cliche "The universe defeats the Reapers with the power of love and friendship and everyone lived idyllic happy little lives for all eternity, the end" ending. GG, guys. GG.

Posts like that are why it's rather hard not to look down on pro-enders.

[rachellouise]

I like the ending, because it's not all just killing a boss, that solved everything, and the world/galaxy is safe; the options come at a cost. I had to think and try to weigh stuff up, like "can I really kill the geth?" I must admit, I had my own flashbacks of things involving the geth. Thinking about evolution, and "is it really evolution if it is decided and forced upon everyone and everything by me?". "Can I control the reapers, or will I be dooming the future?" The sacrificing shepard part didin't come into it, because I had witnessed mordin sacrifice himself to help others, it wasn't paticularly beneficial to himself, nor his people. However i wouldn't have that if Wreave had been in charge, with his intentions of breeding and going to war, I would have likely convinced mordin to leave it.

Of course, I would have been able to phone a friend or something, but I was there all on my own and had to try and use everything I had experienced , in my game, to try and influence my decision.

Modifié par rachellouise, 07 mai 2012 - 09:35 .

[Ieldra]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

It's implied by "the arrival" DLC, but, y'know, speculations from everyone!

The relays didn't get smashed into with an asteroid, you know.

They got "whatever" by a being that controls them completely. Do you really expect a controlled destruction to be anywhere near as big as an uncontrolled one?

If you do, take a look at an automobile. Non-diesel of course.


AND, according to Patrick Weekes, a member of Bioware and if I'm not mistaken a writer for ME3, the relays were "deactivated," not what happened in Arrival.

So, no. No speculation here.

I agree that there is no reason to believe the relays exploded like in Arrival. But as for being "deactivated", I believe that for Control, but it's countered decisively by the explosion scenes in Destroy and Synthesis. The ring breaks, the pieces fly away in all directions. If that isn't destruction I don't know what is.

[Eclipse merc]

Deep and intelligent? Nope.

[Robert Monk]

Qouting the man who claimed:

"God is dead"
- Friedrich Nietzsche -

Is not an obscure reference. If you live in a place where something he wrote is not brought up in class as you reach highschool level, you really should complain to your school board. Or perhaps the religious zealots that seem to have taken over your education.

Also his view on "perspectivisme" I dont know how to translate that word correctly into english, is quite apt in the current conversation.

Modifié par Robert Monk, 07 mai 2012 - 09:39 .

[Reorte]

rachellouise wrote...

I like the ending, because it's not all just killing a boss, that solved everything, and the world/galaxy is safe; the options come at a cost. I had to think and try to weigh stuff up, like "can I really kill the geth?" I must admit, I had my own flashbacks of things involving the geth. Thinking about evolution, and "is it really evolution if it is decided and forced upon everyone and everything by me?". "Can I control the reapers, or will I be dooming the future?" The sacrificing shepard part didin't come into it, because I had witnessed mordin sacrifice himself to help others, it wasn't paticularly beneficial to himself, nor his people. However i wouldn't have that if Wreave had been in charge, with his intentions of breeding and going to war, I would have likely convinced mordin to leave it.

Of course, I would have been able to phone a friend or something, but I was there all on my own and had to try and use everything I had experienced , in my game, to try and influence my decision.

That's all good in concept but it was so dreadfully executed that it became dreadful. I liked no boss fight. I like the idea of having to think hard about making a decision, in the same way as in ME2 I liked having to make the decisions about the geth and the Collector base. What I didn't like were having to make wildly implausible decisions pulled out of thin air at the last second and not knowing what the consequence was. What's the point of wondering if you've doomed the future if there's no way of anyone knowing? That decision is a key part of the plot and leaving it unanswered is simply appalling writing. I also despise the way the main characters were treated.

[Iwillbeback]

rachellouise wrote...

I like the ending, because it's not all just killing a boss, that solved everything, and the world/galaxy is safe; the options come at a cost. I had to think and try to weigh stuff up, like "can I really kill the geth?" I must admit, I had my own flashbacks of things involving the geth. Thinking about evolution, and "is it really evolution if it is decided and forced upon everyone and everything by me?". "Can I control the reapers, or will I be dooming the future?" The sacrificing shepard part didin't come into it, because I had witnessed mordin sacrifice himself to help others, it wasn't paticularly beneficial to himself, nor his people. However i wouldn't have that if Wreave had been in charge, with his intentions of breeding and going to war, I would have likely convinced mordin to leave it.

Of course, I would have been able to phone a friend or something, but I was there all on my own and had to try and use everything I had experienced , in my game, to try and influence my decision.

But how do you know that the galaxy is safe.
My shepard would not know because he is not even sure what he did.
I don't mind having a boss fight or not but not having a boss fight does not make it a good ending automatically.
There is no future, to be honest if you don't get EC you will probably eventually turn insane.

[Seboist]

The ending fits the horrible Crucible deus ex machina plot perfectly. It's the best ending for a plot device that makes the Triforce from Zelda look brilliant.