230 réponses à ce sujet

[StElmo]

Seboist wrote...

The crucible plot is one of the worst plots in gaming bar none. The Triforce in a Zelda game has a better setup than this POS deux ex machina.

Absolutely, most if not all Zelda games introduce the triforce and it's power early in the narrative.

And this is a game about gameplay, not story, hell!

[StElmo]

humes spork wrote...

StElmo wrote...

I'm yet to see someone who liked the ending on a very basic "yeah I'm satisfied with that" level.

but feel free to prove me wrong!

Congrats, in your rush to bash the endings and people who like them, you've managed to say something that's almost perfectly analogous to a now-infamous quote by one Colin Moriarty. You might think about that before trying to take any intellectual high ground in this debate, and whether you're managing to comport yourself in a manner that accurately or credibly conveys the points you'd like to make.

Especially when you'd actually have the temerity to include a quote the full context of which is those who would obfuscate the search for truth and knowledge are interested in only power over others, opposed to the former for its own sake. The irony is palpable.

lulwut?

[StElmo]

Added this to the OP:

EDIT: I can see people are thinking I am some kind of high brow "look down on the little people satisfied with their petty ending" attitude, which is being spashed on me without any real proof.

I am merely pointing out the fact that people who like the ending rarely explain it in a simple way and seem to be fairly condescending of anyone who doesn't approve of the ending. That to me, reeks of ego, not of thoughtfulness.

[-Area51-Silent]

Look, this isn't really an intellectual debate. The question with the ending is whether or not it ended a trilogy well (not a single game). I hate to say that most of the "pro-enders" are those who only played mass effect 3, and for that reason they feel satisfied because really, the ending wraps up the loose ends in mass effect 3.

Nether side is going to give here because its like we are playing 2 competely different stories, and what makes sense for one doesn't for the other. One wraps up all the loose ends that are in it, the other leaves a bunch open and deviates from the original intent/theme of the game iteself. So agreeings to disagree is probably what we should do.

The best solution to this problem? additional endings based on your actual experience. Just like the experience of the game is different if you played ME 1 & 2 (slighly), the endings should be written for those who played those games, who had different experiences in those games, and make sense with a conclusion from those games. Those who decided not to play the other 2 will get to keep the ending that they so like, and if they want to experience the other endings, then they have to play through the other games to get that experience (ok, maybe just ME2 to be fair to the PS3 people).

I think that is a fairly rational request that both sides could agree on?

[Cypher_CS]

StElmo wrote...

Added this to the OP:

EDIT: I can see people are thinking I am some kind of high brow "look down on the little people satisfied with their petty ending" attitude, which is being spashed on me without any real proof.

I am merely pointing out the fact that people who like the ending rarely explain it in a simple way and seem to be fairly condescending of anyone who doesn't approve of the ending. That to me, reeks of ego, not of thoughtfulness.

And that's a fact now?

Yeah, you keep deluding yourself.

I've personally participated in Dog knows how many fully developed conversations and discussions about the endings.
So, seriously, where do you get off?

[AlexXIV]

Well the stupider people are, the easier it is to sell them something average for awesome.

Question remains, since we are all Bioware fans and have always liked Bioware games, are we maybe all stupid?

Valid question I think, because in that case we are just acting weird about ME3.

Because then we should not ask so many questions and just play it and be happy.

[AlexXIV]

Cypher_CS wrote...

StElmo wrote...

Added this to the OP:

EDIT: I can see people are thinking I am some kind of high brow "look down on the little people satisfied with their petty ending" attitude, which is being spashed on me without any real proof.

I am merely pointing out the fact that people who like the ending rarely explain it in a simple way and seem to be fairly condescending of anyone who doesn't approve of the ending. That to me, reeks of ego, not of thoughtfulness.

And that's a fact now?

Yeah, you keep deluding yourself.

I've personally participated in Dog knows how many fully developed conversations and discussions about the endings.
So, seriously, where do you get off?

And, have you added anything useful to them?

[Severyx]

Assumptions are dangerous things, and the OP this entire thread is full of them.

Modifié par Severyx, 07 mai 2012 - 01:03 .

[Cypher_CS]

AlexXIV wrote...

Cypher_CS wrote...

StElmo wrote...

Added this to the OP:

EDIT: I can see people are thinking I am some kind of high brow "look down on the little people satisfied with their petty ending" attitude, which is being spashed on me without any real proof.

I am merely pointing out the fact that people who like the ending rarely explain it in a simple way and seem to be fairly condescending of anyone who doesn't approve of the ending. That to me, reeks of ego, not of thoughtfulness.

And that's a fact now?

Yeah, you keep deluding yourself.

I've personally participated in Dog knows how many fully developed conversations and discussions about the endings.
So, seriously, where do you get off?

And, have you added anything useful to them?

That's not for me to say.
Luckily, however, the replies I got to those posts say that I have.

[Kyle Kabanya]

The endings were terrible. Agree or dissagree, love it or hate it, all the endings were bad. IF ME3 was its own game, than yes it was a solid ending. The game ended with a great soldier's death, with a chance to expand on.

BUT the fact that Shep has endured more in the past two games, makes the ending in the third one pointless.

[AlexXIV]

Severyx wrote...

Assumptions are dangerous things, and the OP is full of them.

Nah not really. It is not really new in life that smart people build theories who are then eventually disproven by smarter people. That doesn't mean that the people who established the theories were dumb.

Thing is, ME3 is like that. The longer you look at it, the worse it gets. Actually all Bioware games are like that. The first playthrough is usually awesome. The only Bioware game I really ever enjoyed many times over was Dragon Age. Mostly because of the characters and overall ambient. But the story as such is pretty cliche and ... partly really boring.

[AlexXIV]

Cypher_CS wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Cypher_CS wrote...

StElmo wrote...

Added this to the OP:

EDIT: I can see people are thinking I am some kind of high brow "look down on the little people satisfied with their petty ending" attitude, which is being spashed on me without any real proof.

I am merely pointing out the fact that people who like the ending rarely explain it in a simple way and seem to be fairly condescending of anyone who doesn't approve of the ending. That to me, reeks of ego, not of thoughtfulness.

And that's a fact now?

Yeah, you keep deluding yourself.

I've personally participated in Dog knows how many fully developed conversations and discussions about the endings.
So, seriously, where do you get off?

And, have you added anything useful to them?

That's not for me to say.
Luckily, however, the replies I got to those posts say that I have.

Yeah I have seen you discuss etc. Not saying you did bad or anything, but honestly you are full of yourself imo. You quite regularly point people to your superior discussion skills. However, no matter how many posts I read of you, they don't make the ending any better. The core problems, the biggest plotholes, you can't fill either.

[Cypher_CS]

I "quite regularly point people to my superior discussion skills"? Huh?

[JamesFaith]

StElmo wrote...

Added this to the OP:

EDIT: I can see people are thinking I am some kind of high brow "look down on the little people satisfied with their petty ending" attitude, which is being spashed on me without any real proof.

I am merely pointing out the fact that people who like the ending rarely explain it in a simple way and seem to be fairly condescending of anyone who doesn't approve of the ending. That to me, reeks of ego, not of thoughtfulness.

So this is really funny.

When someone said he likes ending and explains it in less then three line, he is immediatelly bury in posts demanding thoroughly explanation "How can you like it?",  "What you like on such end?" and "How can you explain this and that plothole?"

And now people who did this and explain it are "fairly condescending of anyone who doesn't approve of the ending" and reeking of ego?

So tell me, OP, how could anyone say he like ending here when both way is obviously wrong and unacceptable?

StElmo wrote...
I'm yet to see someone who liked the ending on a very basic "yeah I'm satisfied with that" level.

Nce to meet you.

Modifié par JamesFaith, 07 mai 2012 - 01:14 .

[Scubaman8777]

StElmo wrote...

Added this to the OP:

EDIT: I can see people are thinking I am some kind of high brow "look down on the little people satisfied with their petty ending" attitude, which is being spashed on me without any real proof.

I am merely pointing out the fact that people who like the ending rarely explain it in a simple way and seem to be fairly condescending of anyone who doesn't approve of the ending. That to me, reeks of ego, not of thoughtfulness.

Yea, I get that impression from time to time, reading people's posts.  Sometimes it's hard to tell if someone actually LIKES the ending.

[Laurencio]

StElmo wrote...

Strangely enough, this interesting perspective was provided by a reader at IGN, of all places.

au.xbox360.ign.com/articles/122/1221492p1.html#comment-474769355

I don't believe anyone actually liked the ending. People like the fact
that they can claim that it's "deep" and "intelligent" and that other
people just didn't get it. It's a pathetic excuse to pretend they're
smart or insightful.

To be honest, I kind of agree with him. Most people that defend the ending seem to like the fact it is ambiguous and dark.

But just like many things in life, this is driven by the ego (second biggest human motivator, aside from reproduction), the desire to put ones ego above others in an attempt to come accross as insightful or thoughtful.

I'm yet to see someone who liked the ending on a very basic "yeah I'm satisfied with that" level.

but feel free to prove me wrong!

Great post to this thread already:

Animositisomina wrote...

I think Friedrich Nietzsche summed it up best with this:

"Being deep and appearing deep. -- Whoever knows he is deep, strives for clarity; whoever would like to appear deep to the crowd, strives for obscurity.
For the crowd considers anything deep if only it cannot see to the
bottom: the crowd is so timid and afraid of going into the water."

The first half, in bold, applies to this whole mess quite well.

EDIT: I can see people are thinking I am some kind of high brow "look down on the little people satisfied with their petty ending" attitude, which is being spashed on me without any real proof.

I am merely pointing out the fact that people who like the ending rarely explain it in a simple way and seem to be fairly condescending of anyone who doesn't approve of the ending. That to me, reeks of ego, not of thoughtfulness.

I liked it, and no not because it was deep, or because it was insightful, but because a few criteria I was interested in were fulfilled.  That is that there was an end to it all, an end to the reaper threat. That there was at least a little bit of hope and and possibly better future presented, for me dead reapers and my crew having a real chance of survival is hope.

I also liked that the "final" choice wasn't presented through the hand holding of the renegade/paragon system, the final choice became a little more personal that way. Sure the choices weren't exactly great and the execution behind it was a little too simple, but the idea itself was quite neat. In order to save the galaxy you had to sacrifice something, no matter what. I was OK with that.

I was also lucky with my ending cinematic, and only people whom were left on the ship actually exited on the mysterious jungle planet. So I suppose that probably helped a little. Sure it would have been nice with some more closure and more details on what exactly happened, but I'm not really all that bothered about it. Grandpa scene did not bother me.

Most importantly however, I went into it with the idea that this would have to be worse than all the bad endings I've ever seen, as well as the opinion that this was Bioware's story and they could do whatever they wanted with it, it's their right. Considering the bad stories and endings I've seen in the past I was pleasantly surprised at the end result.

I certainly have my problems with ME3, most specifically the entire Crucible plot which I find ridiculous, however I did like the ending, although I may dislike certain aspects of it as well as find certain parts of the story and logic to be contrived and strange, I still believe it's Bioware's right to do whatever they want with their story.

[guacamayus]

so.. anyone who disagrees with me is just trying to be deep and insightful when in fact is just an idiot... great reasoning there, nothing wrong with that xD

for the record I didn't like the ending but claiming that your point of view is the only one acceptable is beyond stupid.

[JamesFaith]

guacamayus wrote...

so.. anyone who disagrees with me is just trying to be deep and insightful when in fact is just an idiot... great reasoning there, nothing wrong with that xD

for the record I didn't like the ending but claiming that your point of view is the only one acceptable is beyond stupid.

Good said.

In fact, OP argumentation at the beggining of thread reminds me times, when commies ruled my country. When you have different opinion, even some silly thing like having long hair as male, commies desperately trying to find some "scientific" or social argument, why you (not your opinion, but YOU) are wrong in some way.  Exactly same thing OP doing here with his "pro-enders EGO argument".

[humes spork]

StElmo wrote...

I am merely pointing out the fact that people who like the ending rarely explain it in a simple way and seem to be fairly condescending of anyone who doesn't approve of the ending. That to me, reeks of ego, not of thoughtfulness.

Okay, how about this:

I liked the ending. I felt that while it could have been much better done, I thought the concepts behind it were intriguing and outweighed the poor execution. The greater concepts, with the exception of the Catalyst, were established and reinforced throughout the trilogy, and the details while sparse conclusions can be easily drawn from what precious little is there.

Simple enough? Three simple sentences, little words, generalities, no aspersions cast on anyone. Because I'd bet cash money at this point I'll get dogpiled with challenges to defend my opinion by people who would rather claim my opinion is somehow factually wrong.

Modifié par humes spork, 07 mai 2012 - 02:58 .

[10K]

To tell you the truth, I could careless about the ending. Playing Mass effect for me was never about how I thought it would end. It was the story I loved that kept bringing me back for more, and that's what killed ME3 for me. Screw the ending, I want an all around better story. It was horrable. it seemed as if Bioware was more focused on the combat aspect than the story. I mean what happened to the beautiful side missions, interacting with the crew, or MY DAMN MIDDLE DIALOGUE OPTION. What happened to all those good things? Personally I would rather see my romance story end on a better note than a new ending. The lack of story and character interaction is what killed ME3 for me. I only finished the game twice and I'm not planing anymore playthroughs even after the EC release. Sadly the only thing that's holding this game in my collection is the Multiplayer and that hurts to admit.

Modifié par mosesarose, 07 mai 2012 - 03:03 .

[dreamgazer]

StElmo wrote...

Added this to the OP:

EDIT: I can see people are thinking I am some kind of high brow "look down on the little people satisfied with their petty ending" attitude, which is being spashed on me without any real proof.

I am merely pointing out the fact that people who like the ending rarely explain it in a simple way and seem to be fairly condescending of anyone who doesn't approve of the ending. That to me, reeks of ego, not of thoughtfulness.

Your quote from the original post: "But just like many things in life, this is driven by the ego (second biggest human motivator, aside from reproduction), the desire to put ones ego above others in an attempt to come across as insightful."

That, along with starting this very topic in the first place, suggests the attitude.  You're already creating a tier of superiority. 

And, just to be clear: you want someone to explain depth---which, even by a literal definition, means "distance from the nearest to the farthest point of something"---in a simple way? You'd have a hard time in a philosophy class with that viewpoint, and science-fiction is often very philosophical.

Here's "simple": I like the ideas in the ending because the ultimate decision involves big, mysterious, confrontational concepts of scientific, psychological, and sociological curiosity, that---despite what others have said---were alluded to and explored from the start of the trilogy. Also, The Catalyst and the moral dilemma he presents provide a means of varied interpretation based on his motives and endeavors, and not just in a "fan-fiction" sort of way. 

Modifié par dreamgazer, 07 mai 2012 - 03:09 .

[dreamgazer]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

I don't think it's really a leap of logic to conclude that the thing that made the relays is capable of disabling them without destroying the system they're in.

No, it's not, and I agree---both with you, and the idea that it's what happened.  But again, it's a problem with execution, which involved explosions and pieces traveling away from a profound eruption of something other than fire.  Another "intriguing idea, rough execution" example.