226 réponses à ce sujet

[IS1296]

the fact that we have to ask questions like this is why i'm done with bioware

[DistantUtopia]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

Identical twins are genetically the same, but they do not have the same memories or neural connections. Even if you somehow used Shepard's genetic information to grow a new brain, or even somehow repair parts of the brain, it's not going to have the same information in it, even if it has the same structure.  It will be a similar brain, but it's not going to magically have the same memories. Those connections are unique. Once they're gone, they're gone.
 

At least with our current understanding of science, we know those connections can't be recreated.  Who knows, maybe Cerberus really did find a way to "preserve" memories?

Also...

Hurrah for Science!

[balance5050]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

Shepard died from lack of oxygen, in the descent to the planet. That would have caused significant damage to his brain all over. Some of this damage is literally not repairable. If the neural connections in his mind, responsible for certain memories, reflexes , and abilities are literally gone, because they are dead and decayed, you can't just reconnect these pathways without magic. They were formed from experience, and are gone forever. You can't just recreate those experiences. 

Why not?

EVERYTHING you describe as 'experience' is just incredibly complicated chemistry. Like all good chemistry a very large part of that can be recreated.

The only thing that is 100% unfeasible is the quantum nature of chemistry at the level of the brain, it would be down to chance whether it was 100% identical but we can leave this to the fact that it is fiction.

You need to let go the misconception that memories are irretrievable, they are not as such. Your brain is nothing but a large mixture of chemicals.

Identical twins are genetically the same, but they do not have the same memories or neural connections. Even if you somehow used Shepard's genetic information to grow a new brain, or even somehow repair parts of the brain, it's not going to have the same information in it, even if it has the same structure.  It will be a similar brain, but it's not going to magically have the same memories. Those connections are unique. Once they're gone, they're gone.
 

He doesn't have all of his memories, but he's still Shepard, all of this is already discussed, backed up, and justified through the codex, various datapads, and audiologs throughout ME2.

[balance5050]

IS1296 wrote...

the fact that we have to ask questions like this is why i'm done with bioware

So does that mean that this is your last post? peace out!

[MegaSovereign]

Nightwriter wrote...

GlassElephant wrote...

Maybe the Crucible was so finely tuned (high EMS) that the red explosion was completely benign (except to Reapers and synthetic life)? So finely tuned that even Shepard who was right in the middle of it could survive and land in a pile of rubble in an arm of the Citadel that fell off and was floating in space.

It's a BS explanation, but the "Shepard lives" clip was nothing more than an Easter Egg for people who played multiplayer. Shepard's basically dead, at least until EC comes out with more context for it.

Doesn't explain why Shepard's synthetic parts didn't asplode in his body. I imagine that isn't good for your health.

Also your last paragraph is causing me startling amounts of outrage. HOW COULD YOU THINK THAT SHEPARD LIVING IS JUST AN AFTERTHOUGHT TO THROW IN FOR MULTIPLAYERS, BIOWARE.

It only affects synthetic life, not synthetic tech.

[Catamantaloedis]

balance5050 wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

Shepard died from lack of oxygen, in the descent to the planet. That would have caused significant damage to his brain all over. Some of this damage is literally not repairable. If the neural connections in his mind, responsible for certain memories, reflexes , and abilities are literally gone, because they are dead and decayed, you can't just reconnect these pathways without magic. They were formed from experience, and are gone forever. You can't just recreate those experiences. 

Why not?

EVERYTHING you describe as 'experience' is just incredibly complicated chemistry. Like all good chemistry a very large part of that can be recreated.

The only thing that is 100% unfeasible is the quantum nature of chemistry at the level of the brain, it would be down to chance whether it was 100% identical but we can leave this to the fact that it is fiction.

You need to let go the misconception that memories are irretrievable, they are not as such. Your brain is nothing but a large mixture of chemicals.

Identical twins are genetically the same, but they do not have the same memories or neural connections. Even if you somehow used Shepard's genetic information to grow a new brain, or even somehow repair parts of the brain, it's not going to have the same information in it, even if it has the same structure.  It will be a similar brain, but it's not going to magically have the same memories. Those connections are unique. Once they're gone, they're gone.
 

He doesn't have all of his memories, but he's still Shepard, all of this is already discussed, backed up, and justified through the codex, various datapads, and audiologs throughout ME2.

He still should be Shepard-like, sure. But maybe this is a Shepard, who's brain was so decayed that he doesn't remember the battle of the Citadel or Virmire. That's really how it should have been. To put it in perspective, you can suffer severe memory loss, from being without oxygen for a mere 5 minutes, but surviving. Imagine the brain damage, including memory loss, that must have occurred from not only suffocating, but literally dying from it.

But the whole point is that all of this arguing over Shepard magically surving the Citadel explosion is all irrelevant when you consider that he never should have "survived" in the first place.

Modifié par Catamantaloedis, 07 mai 2012 - 10:10 .

[OMEGAlomaniac]

Answer:

/thread

[IS1296]

balance5050 wrote...

IS1296 wrote...

the fact that we have to ask questions like this is why i'm done with bioware

So does that mean that this is your last post? peace out!

no, i'm here for mass effect, not for bioware.

[Grimwick]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

Shepard died from lack of oxygen, in the descent to the planet. That would have caused significant damage to his brain all over. Some of this damage is literally not repairable. If the neural connections in his mind, responsible for certain memories, reflexes , and abilities are literally gone, because they are dead and decayed, you can't just reconnect these pathways without magic. They were formed from experience, and are gone forever. You can't just recreate those experiences. 

Why not?

EVERYTHING you describe as 'experience' is just incredibly complicated chemistry. Like all good chemistry a very large part of that can be recreated.

The only thing that is 100% unfeasible is the quantum nature of chemistry at the level of the brain, it would be down to chance whether it was 100% identical but we can leave this to the fact that it is fiction.

You need to let go the misconception that memories are irretrievable, they are not as such. Your brain is nothing but a large mixture of chemicals.

Identical twins are genetically the same, but they do not have the same memories or neural connections. Even if you somehow used Shepard's genetic information to grow a new brain, or even somehow repair parts of the brain, it's not going to have the same information in it, even if it has the same structure.  It will be a similar brain, but it's not going to magically have the same memories. Those connections are unique. Once they're gone, they're gone.
 

That's an incredibly poor understanding of science that you just exhibited.

Genetic information =/= brain chemistry.

Neural connections are made in response to chemical stimuli - if these stimuli are not present then they do not provoke change.

If the twins lived absolutely perfectly 100% identical lives whilst ignoring quantum effects and the nature of chaos theory then yes they would be identical. But this is unrealistic and that analogy shows a poor understanding of the concept I am referring to.

[balance5050]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

GlassElephant wrote...

Maybe the Crucible was so finely tuned (high EMS) that the red explosion was completely benign (except to Reapers and synthetic life)? So finely tuned that even Shepard who was right in the middle of it could survive and land in a pile of rubble in an arm of the Citadel that fell off and was floating in space.

It's a BS explanation, but the "Shepard lives" clip was nothing more than an Easter Egg for people who played multiplayer. Shepard's basically dead, at least until EC comes out with more context for it.

Doesn't explain why Shepard's synthetic parts didn't asplode in his body. I imagine that isn't good for your health.

Also your last paragraph is causing me startling amounts of outrage. HOW COULD YOU THINK THAT SHEPARD LIVING IS JUST AN AFTERTHOUGHT TO THROW IN FOR MULTIPLAYERS, BIOWARE.

It only affects synthetic life, not synthetic tech.

"Most of the technology you rely on."

http://www.youtube.c...1tQDPbX4#t=216s

[Catamantaloedis]

Grimwick wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

Shepard died from lack of oxygen, in the descent to the planet. That would have caused significant damage to his brain all over. Some of this damage is literally not repairable. If the neural connections in his mind, responsible for certain memories, reflexes , and abilities are literally gone, because they are dead and decayed, you can't just reconnect these pathways without magic. They were formed from experience, and are gone forever. You can't just recreate those experiences. 

Why not?

EVERYTHING you describe as 'experience' is just incredibly complicated chemistry. Like all good chemistry a very large part of that can be recreated.

The only thing that is 100% unfeasible is the quantum nature of chemistry at the level of the brain, it would be down to chance whether it was 100% identical but we can leave this to the fact that it is fiction.

You need to let go the misconception that memories are irretrievable, they are not as such. Your brain is nothing but a large mixture of chemicals.

Identical twins are genetically the same, but they do not have the same memories or neural connections. Even if you somehow used Shepard's genetic information to grow a new brain, or even somehow repair parts of the brain, it's not going to have the same information in it, even if it has the same structure.  It will be a similar brain, but it's not going to magically have the same memories. Those connections are unique. Once they're gone, they're gone.
 

That's an incredibly poor understanding of science that you just exhibited.

Genetic information =/= brain chemistry.

Neural connections are made in response to chemical stimuli - if these stimuli are not present then they do not provoke change.

If the twins lived absolutely perfectly 100% identical lives whilst ignoring quantum effects and the nature of chaos theory then yes they would be identical. But this is unrealistic and that analogy shows a poor understanding of the concept I am referring to.

The point is that they could create a genetic replica of Shepard's brain, but how are they going to magically reconnect neural connections which are dead and gone? They can't. Hence the reason, it would not be the same Shepard because he would not have recollection of the same experiences, because they are lost.

Modifié par Catamantaloedis, 07 mai 2012 - 10:17 .

[Shock n Awe]

majinbuu1307 wrote...

notice the inner ring never gets destroyed or comes apart, watch the video again, There are plenty of ways he could have survived that, and he obviously did survive. Shep in citadel rubble at the end. NOT LONDON. gawd people lol

There isn't any ****ing concrete on the Citadel.

Edit: There's also a Mako in the background.  There weren't any Makos on the Citadel.

Modifié par Shock n Awe, 07 mai 2012 - 10:23 .

[balance5050]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

That's an incredibly poor understanding of science that you just exhibited.

Genetic information =/= brain chemistry.

Neural connections are made in response to chemical stimuli - if these stimuli are not present then they do not provoke change.

If the twins lived absolutely perfectly 100% identical lives whilst ignoring quantum effects and the nature of chaos theory then yes they would be identical. But this is unrealistic and that analogy shows a poor understanding of the concept I am referring to.

The point is that they could create a genetic replica of Shepard's brain, but how are they going to magically reconnect neural connects which are dead and gone? They can't. 

You're basing things on modern tech.... fact is Mass effect takes place in the future and you don't know what advances in neuroscience will be made.


Edit: I can't wait until medi-gel is invented 

Modifié par balance5050, 07 mai 2012 - 10:21 .

[Catamantaloedis]

balance5050 wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

That's an incredibly poor understanding of science that you just exhibited.

Genetic information =/= brain chemistry.

Neural connections are made in response to chemical stimuli - if these stimuli are not present then they do not provoke change.

If the twins lived absolutely perfectly 100% identical lives whilst ignoring quantum effects and the nature of chaos theory then yes they would be identical. But this is unrealistic and that analogy shows a poor understanding of the concept I am referring to.

The point is that they could create a genetic replica of Shepard's brain, but how are they going to magically reconnect neural connects which are dead and gone? They can't. 

You're basing things on modern tech.... fact is Mass effect takes place in the future and you don't know what advances in neuroscience will be made.

You're suggesting that they will be able to restore unique neural connections responsible for certain memories, which have literally decomposed? Do you remember what you learned on your third day of seventh grade? Of course you don't, because that neural connection was not rehearsed by you, because it wasn't important. Therefore it has decayed. Gone and irretrievable by you, a living breathing person. Shepard is dead, and these pathways have decayed because of nature. He's not getting them back.

Modifié par Catamantaloedis, 07 mai 2012 - 10:21 .

[balance5050]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

That's an incredibly poor understanding of science that you just exhibited.

Genetic information =/= brain chemistry.

Neural connections are made in response to chemical stimuli - if these stimuli are not present then they do not provoke change.

If the twins lived absolutely perfectly 100% identical lives whilst ignoring quantum effects and the nature of chaos theory then yes they would be identical. But this is unrealistic and that analogy shows a poor understanding of the concept I am referring to.

The point is that they could create a genetic replica of Shepard's brain, but how are they going to magically reconnect neural connects which are dead and gone? They can't. 

You're basing things on modern tech.... fact is Mass effect takes place in the future and you don't know what advances in neuroscience will be made.

You're suggesting that they will be able to restore unique neural connections responsible for certain memories, which have literally decomposed? Do you remember what you learned on your third day of seventh grade? Of course you don't, because that neural connection was not rehearsed by you, because it wasn't important. Therefore it has decayed. Gone and irretrievable by you, a living breathing person. Shepard is dead, and these pathways have decayed because of nature. He's not getting them back.

Again, after falling through  the outer atmosphere, his brain flash froze to -22C, preserving his brain inside his helmet.

[Marauder Shields N7]

Swimming Ferret wrote...

SPACE-

Oh wait...

INDOCTRI-

Ummm...

Plot hole.

[Catamantaloedis]

balance5050 wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

That's an incredibly poor understanding of science that you just exhibited.

Genetic information =/= brain chemistry.

Neural connections are made in response to chemical stimuli - if these stimuli are not present then they do not provoke change.

If the twins lived absolutely perfectly 100% identical lives whilst ignoring quantum effects and the nature of chaos theory then yes they would be identical. But this is unrealistic and that analogy shows a poor understanding of the concept I am referring to.

The point is that they could create a genetic replica of Shepard's brain, but how are they going to magically reconnect neural connects which are dead and gone? They can't. 

You're basing things on modern tech.... fact is Mass effect takes place in the future and you don't know what advances in neuroscience will be made.

You're suggesting that they will be able to restore unique neural connections responsible for certain memories, which have literally decomposed? Do you remember what you learned on your third day of seventh grade? Of course you don't, because that neural connection was not rehearsed by you, because it wasn't important. Therefore it has decayed. Gone and irretrievable by you, a living breathing person. Shepard is dead, and these pathways have decayed because of nature. He's not getting them back.

Again, after falling through  the outer atmosphere, his brain flash froze to -22C, preserving his brain inside his helmet.

Shepard clearly died of suffocation before he descended back to the planet, and spent some time entering the atmosphere. His armor also likely has some kind of environmental protection, although I'm speculating on that point.

Modifié par Catamantaloedis, 07 mai 2012 - 10:28 .

[balance5050]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

Shepard clearly died of suffocation before he descended back to the planet, and spent some time entering the atmosphere. His armor also likely has some kind of environmental protection, although I'm speculating on that point.

You know David Blaine held his breath for 17 minutes right?

And people have been drowned in cold water and recovered after hours of no oxygen.

EDIT: also, freezing atmoshere went right into his suit after his oxygen tube disconnected.

Modifié par balance5050, 07 mai 2012 - 10:38 .

[Catamantaloedis]

balance5050 wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

Shepard clearly died of suffocation before he descended back to the planet, and spent some time entering the atmosphere. His armor also likely has some kind of environmental protection, although I'm speculating on that point.

You know David Blaine held his breath for 17 minutes right?

And people have been drowned in cold water and recovered after hours of no oxygen.

EDIT: also, freezing atmoshere went right into his suit after his oxygen tube disconnected.

David Blane, didn't suffocate to death. People only recover from lack of oxygen that extreme in cold temperatures because blood pressure slows down because of hypothermia, allowing some flow of oxygen to remain. But that doesn't mean that the lack of oxygen didn't cause any brain damage or memory loss. And it certainly doesn't mean that extreme and rare cases of survival can be applied to people who literally DIED from suffocating. 

And if freezing atmosphere went into his suit, then that also means that extreme heat went into his suit during reentry into the atmosphere, which brings up more problems in itself.

Modifié par Catamantaloedis, 07 mai 2012 - 10:43 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Shepard's plot armor had a plot bubble over the head that provided protection (like Joker's did in ME2). The armor also had a plot heat shield and plot oxygen supply with enough to last for re-entry. And there were plot impact absorbers. And the plot devices in the plot brain preserved it so that Shepard survived if one's EMS was high enough. In other words, not space magic. And Miranda's tech implants were plot as well so nothing happened there. Not all tech and synthetic stuff ceased functioning. You know, plot bull****.

Just like people's artificial limbs kept working.

[lordofdogtown19]

 

[balance5050]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

Shepard clearly died of suffocation before he descended back to the planet, and spent some time entering the atmosphere. His armor also likely has some kind of environmental protection, although I'm speculating on that point.

You know David Blaine held his breath for 17 minutes right?

And people have been drowned in cold water and recovered after hours of no oxygen.

EDIT: also, freezing atmoshere went right into his suit after his oxygen tube disconnected.

David Blane, didn't suffocate to death. People only recover from lack of oxygen that extreme in cold temperatures because blood pressure slows down because of hypothermia, allowing some flow of oxygen to remain. But that doesn't mean that the lack of oxygen didn't cause any brain damage or memory loss. And it certainly doesn't mean that extreme and rare cases of survival can be applied to people who literally DIED from suffocating. 

And if freezing air went into his suit, then that also means that extreme heat went into his suit during reentry into the atmosphere, which brings up more problems in itself.

Welp, can't say I didn't try, seems completly plausible in the future to me! You must really hate Mass Effect, huh?

[Catamantaloedis]

lordofdogtown19 wrote...

 

How do you post pics on this site, out of curiosty? Mine always say *image deleted*

[Catamantaloedis]

balance5050 wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

Shepard clearly died of suffocation before he descended back to the planet, and spent some time entering the atmosphere. His armor also likely has some kind of environmental protection, although I'm speculating on that point.

You know David Blaine held his breath for 17 minutes right?

And people have been drowned in cold water and recovered after hours of no oxygen.

EDIT: also, freezing atmoshere went right into his suit after his oxygen tube disconnected.

David Blane, didn't suffocate to death. People only recover from lack of oxygen that extreme in cold temperatures because blood pressure slows down because of hypothermia, allowing some flow of oxygen to remain. But that doesn't mean that the lack of oxygen didn't cause any brain damage or memory loss. And it certainly doesn't mean that extreme and rare cases of survival can be applied to people who literally DIED from suffocating. 

And if freezing air went into his suit, then that also means that extreme heat went into his suit during reentry into the atmosphere, which brings up more problems in itself.

Welp, can't say I didn't try, seems completly plausible in the future to me! You must really hate Mass Effect, huh?

No, I love Mass Effect, it's one of, if not my favorite series of video games. That doesn't mean I have to pretend everything that happens makes sense, especially with this third entry. You have to suspend disbelief for some of these things.

[lordofdogtown19]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

lordofdogtown19 wrote...

 

How do you post pics on this site, out of curiosty? Mine always say *image deleted*

I just copy and paste the image on the full form post

Modifié par lordofdogtown19, 07 mai 2012 - 10:47 .