232 réponses à ce sujet

[LeBurns]

Daddy555 wrote...

alot of you deny the IT yet never seem to be able to fill the gaps that IT fills truth is the IT is the only thing that brings any sense to an ending that without indoctricnation has more holes than i care to mention

im open minded i belive in the IT because it seems to have to many clues to be ignored many Look like they were placed there for us to see by bioware

if its not true fine i can go with that but can you explain the holes in the ending in a better more sensical way that the IT does

LETS HEAR IT

NO RESPONSES SUCH AS the exteded cut proves IT incorrect cos it proves nothing of the sort

the list of evidence to support the IT is massive and to deny all of them is silly . oily shadow dreams. sheperd having same eyes has saren and tim following control ending ECT YOU ALL KNOW WHAT im talking about i dont need to list them

OP this is kind of pointless.  There are gaps in the story because the ending was incomplete and a piece of trash.  Is IT better than the ending we got?  Sure it is, as is just about any other theory you can come up with.  But just because the theories are better than the ending we got doesn't mean the theories are correct.  They are just a whole lot better endings.

[DiebytheSword]

floppypig16 wrote...

Yes, but that's what debate and argument is all about. Proving why your theory is more sound than the other. If i told you right now that my intepretation of the Titanic was that it was all about robot zombie ****s, you'd probably tell me I was retararded. And if you wouldn't, well, you really should. 

I'm not saying what the IT theorists believe is as crazy as that - that's an extremely exageratted example - but no, I don't think their theory has any leg to stand on. Like i said, it's not a theory that tries to explain the "plotholes". It's a theory that just dismisses everything as not being real so it has no actual impact on the universe they love. 

Debate and argument are about communicating ideas across a difference of opinion, not insulting the other side until they are shamed into joining you.

I'm going to walk past that absurdly extended argument about the Titanic, you yourself call it what it is.

I'm of the opinion that there were too many hints of the catalyst being in Shepards head to ignore the possibility.

If it were not, then you are either of the opinion that the Star Child took his shape by pure coincidence (which is also laughably absurd), or that the Reapers were recording images of everything Shepard encountered during the course of the game and randomly picked an image from those encounters to represent them.

The easiest explanation is that the Catalyst pulled an image that would have impact (from their perspective) from Shepards memories to better confront him.  Or, that the Child was inserted in Shepards thougths from the begining.

Whether or not that proves IT is irrelevant, it is a strong argument to not dismiss IT out of hand, and to argue it seriously.

Unlike the Titanic, that has multiple recorded accounts and decades of forensic work to disprove, out of hand, robot zombies.

[AlanC9]

RyuujinZERO wrote...
Ah, fair enough. it still leaves the question of how Joker managed to get the crew off Earth with both of Normandy's Kodiaks destroyed,  from an area utterly plastered in anti-air defences, flee the battle, reach the charon relay and get halfway into a relay jump in the time it took the crucible to activate

Fleeing the battle, reaching the relay, and executing a jump are fairly fast processes. At 4000x lightspeed Pluto's pretty damn close.

And it's not like Joker hasn't picked people up in the middle of a Reaper attack before....

[AlanC9]

DiebytheSword wrote...
The easiest explanation is that the Catalyst pulled an image that would have impact (from their perspective) from Shepards memories to better confront him.  Or, that the Child was inserted in Shepards thougths from the begining.

Whether or not that proves IT is irrelevant, it is a strong argument to not dismiss IT out of hand, and to argue it seriously.

As far as I can see it, this makes the Catalyst's form evidence of nothing at all. Sure, it can directly interface with a human mind. So can Cerberus. So can the geth.

[floppypig16]

DiebytheSword wrote...

floppypig16 wrote...

Yes, but that's what debate and argument is all about. Proving why your theory is more sound than the other. If i told you right now that my intepretation of the Titanic was that it was all about robot zombie ****s, you'd probably tell me I was retararded. And if you wouldn't, well, you really should. 

I'm not saying what the IT theorists believe is as crazy as that - that's an extremely exageratted example - but no, I don't think their theory has any leg to stand on. Like i said, it's not a theory that tries to explain the "plotholes". It's a theory that just dismisses everything as not being real so it has no actual impact on the universe they love. 

Debate and argument are about communicating ideas across a difference of opinion, not insulting the other side until they are shamed into joining you.

I'm going to walk past that absurdly extended argument about the Titanic, you yourself call it what it is.

I'm of the opinion that there were too many hints of the catalyst being in Shepards head to ignore the possibility.

If it were not, then you are either of the opinion that the Star Child took his shape by pure coincidence (which is also laughably absurd), or that the Reapers were recording images of everything Shepard encountered during the course of the game and randomly picked an image from those encounters to represent them.

The easiest explanation is that the Catalyst pulled an image that would have impact (from their perspective) from Shepards memories to better confront him.  Or, that the Child was inserted in Shepards thougths from the begining.

Whether or not that proves IT is irrelevant, it is a strong argument to not dismiss IT out of hand, and to argue it seriously.

Unlike the Titanic, that has multiple recorded accounts and decades of forensic work to disprove, out of hand, robot zombies.

I disagree. I don't think the fact that the Catalsy resembles the kid from the beginning warrants the IT theory - or even to argue it seriously. Again, its dramatic impact. the kid is a symbol of letting go of the past (the guilt of not being able to save everyone - failing) and looking to the future (the choice Shepard has to make). 

It is a massive leap to say that the prescence of the kid warranta a dicussion on IT, when nothing else points to the IT theory. Yeah, people seem to be find evidence everywhere for the IT theory, but they're really not. They're just dismissing everything. 

^AlanC9 also makes a very good point above. 

Modifié par floppypig16, 07 mai 2012 - 07:09 .

[DiebytheSword]

AlanC9 wrote...

DiebytheSword wrote...
The easiest explanation is that the Catalyst pulled an image that would have impact (from their perspective) from Shepards memories to better confront him.  Or, that the Child was inserted in Shepards thougths from the begining.

Whether or not that proves IT is irrelevant, it is a strong argument to not dismiss IT out of hand, and to argue it seriously.

As far as I can see it, this makes the Catalyst's form evidence of nothing at all. Sure, it can directly interface with a human mind. So can Cerberus. So can the geth.

Yes, and the Reapers being in your head are never a bad thing?  A somewhat succesful argument against this is divorcing the Catalyst from the Reapers in some way.

Otherwise, the Reapers are in your head.  That can't be condusive to trusting everything you see and hear.

Again, I don't neccesarily believe in IT, I only believe that it is a possibility amongst many, including a literal ending (that is, that it was exactly what we saw).  And truth be told, I'm fine with the endings for the most part, particularly the catalyst. 

While I am disappointed in the abruptness of the endings, the inconsistancies in Joker's Wild Ride are actually the ones that drive me nuts. 

[RyuujinZERO]

AlanC9 wrote...

Fleeing the battle, reaching the relay, and executing a jump are fairly fast processes. At 4000x lightspeed Pluto's pretty damn close.

According to the codex ships are still subject to acceleration and decelleration (Shepard even cracks a joke about it in ME2*), which is how Shepard and co find time for sex scenes and sleep during flights. Pluto is 13 light hours from Sol... maybe a physicst can give us some upper and lower bounds for that



* (In store on the citadel)
Shepard: "You'd be amazed how often I hear that... 'Why is the ship turning around, we're only halfway there"

To clarify: Even a mass effect based ship has to turn around and begin to decelerate halfway into the flight. This means there is a distinct period of deceleration, which also places and upper limit to how fast a ship can cross a distance sicne it has to decelerate at the end to save ramming into it's destination.

[DiebytheSword]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

As far as I can see it, this makes the Catalyst's form evidence of nothing at all. Sure, it can directly interface with a human mind. So can Cerberus. So can the geth.

I'm inclined to feel the same, though I look more to Vigil as my reasoning. If a prothean VI can suddenly know English (or whatever Shep's language is), I don't think it's impossible that a--VI? What exactly IS the Catalyst?--can take a human form, especially one that is very prevalent in Shep's mind (he's had three dreams about him, after all).

 Vigil is not in your head to learn your language, he does so by monitoring radio traffic.  That's explained in ME1 clear as day.

Floppypig16 Wrote...

Again, its dramatic impact. the kid is a symbol of letting go of the past (the guilt of not being able to save everyone - failing) and looking to the future (the choice Shepard has to make). 

It is a massive leap to say that the prescence of the kid warranta a dicussion on IT, when nothing else points to the IT theory. Yeah, people seem to be find evidence everywhere for the IT theory, but they're really not. They're just dismissing everything. 

You claim that the ending is literal, yet you fall back on a literary device, dramatic impact, as the reason that the Catalyst/GUARDIAN has chosen to take the visage of child from Shepard's memories?  The dreams can fit this easily, but the end confrontation cannot.

The Child's image is pulled from Shepards experiences, not through monitoring radio traffic, not through dramatic impact at the end of a writer's pen, but though access to what Shepard has between his ears.

You don't have this dismissed out of anything but bias if that is your counterargument.

[DiebytheSword]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

Which ones?

Please tell me you aren't about to defend that part of the ending.  Joker flees despite standing orders, it is against his character to do so anyway, he is already in transit when the relay conduit falls apart, meaining he retreated way before that scene.  The ship survives untold cherenkov radiation and then manages to crash land on a garden world that will have only dextro or lenovo amino acids, not both.  There are so many pieces of bad writing and ignoring cannon in just that segment that I can't take it seriously.

Could it have happened?  Absolutely, but it shouldn't have.  Character is something that shouldn't be violated for dramatic impact, nor should canon for that matter.

[Emzamination]

SynheKatze wrote...

IT does not fill any gaps, it just dismisses them as an elaboration of Shepard.

^ Exactly, take your paranoia and denial elsewhere Pro-IT.

[DiebytheSword]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

DiebytheSword wrote...

 Vigil is not in your head to learn your language, he does so by monitoring radio traffic.  That's explained in ME1 clear as day.

True, but I was talking more about the logic and knowledge required to transform oneself to another form for Shep to view, not so much the method through which the other form (English, the kid) was found out. But I see your point.

If it was a random everychild, you would have a point.  It was not, it was a specific child that was blown up in a shuttle.

[RyuujinZERO]

DiebytheSword wrote...

The Child's image is pulled from Shepards experiences, not through monitoring radio traffic, not through dramatic impact at the end of a writer's pen, but though access to what Shepard has between his ears.

It's a good point, I think part the problem is when we get into this territory we're balancing one set of psuedoscience against another set of psuedoscience AND we have to factor in whether the writer is just plain stupid, we have no logical point of reference and it's entirely possible we're reading too much into it.

Some possibilitys:

1. The catalyst has the means to read peoples memories remotely. This then leaves us with the realisation rhe catalyst can push all Shepards buttons anyway by lying his ass off to him in a way that fits shepards preconceptions and the player isn't going to trust a word out the kids mouth ANYWAY.

2. The catalyst has indoctrinated Shepard and can control his thoughts as well as read them... in which case the player isn't going to trust a word out the kids mouth because it's just Harbinger's mouthpiece.

3. The author penned the child in for dramatic effect without thinking through the implications of this. In which case he's simply a creepy ghost-kid... which nobody trusts a word from, creepy ghost kids are never good.



The ultimate mistake then is that the writer ever thought anyone would actually warm up to ghostkid xD

Modifié par RyuujinZERO, 07 mai 2012 - 07:27 .

[floppypig]

DiebytheSword wrote...

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

As far as I can see it, this makes the Catalyst's form evidence of nothing at all. Sure, it can directly interface with a human mind. So can Cerberus. So can the geth.

I'm inclined to feel the same, though I look more to Vigil as my reasoning. If a prothean VI can suddenly know English (or whatever Shep's language is), I don't think it's impossible that a--VI? What exactly IS the Catalyst?--can take a human form, especially one that is very prevalent in Shep's mind (he's had three dreams about him, after all).

 Vigil is not in your head to learn your language, he does so by monitoring radio traffic.  That's explained in ME1 clear as day.

Floppypig16 Wrote...

Again, its dramatic impact. the kid is a symbol of letting go of the past (the guilt of not being able to save everyone - failing) and looking to the future (the choice Shepard has to make). 

It is a massive leap to say that the prescence of the kid warranta a dicussion on IT, when nothing else points to the IT theory. Yeah, people seem to be find evidence everywhere for the IT theory, but they're really not. They're just dismissing everything. 

You claim that the ending is literal, yet you fall back on a literary device, dramatic impact, as the reason that the Catalyst/GUARDIAN has chosen to take the visage of child from Shepard's memories?  The dreams can fit this easily, but the end confrontation cannot.

The Child's image is pulled from Shepards experiences, not through monitoring radio traffic, not through dramatic impact at the end of a writer's pen, but though access to what Shepard has between his ears.

You don't have this dismissed out of anything but bias if that is your counterargument.

Okay, fine. But as AlanC9 already pointed out, this phenomenon isn't something that hasn't been encountered in the ME universe before, nor does it suddenly make the IT theory a possibility. Like I said, IT theorists base their theory on evidence that I simply don't think exists. So yes, if it seems like I'm telling them they're clutching at straws, its because I really do think they're clutching at straws. 

[Daddy555]

How does TIM take control of sheperd and anderson?? he has no ability to directly control anyone.... there was one walkway to the terminal how did anderson get there ....

were did the magic lift come from......how come we hear over the radio that the entire team was wiped out but im walking towards the beam..... what about the dream with the strange shadows in you cant deny it fits the racni queens description of indoctrination... .. when sheperd shoots anderson sheperd also whinces in pain ???......whats with all the blackness sorrounding the screen during the tim scene

MAIN QUESTION HOW DOES THE ILLUSIVE MAN CONTROL YOU ??? he has magic powers now!! there are more but id like these solved please

[RyuujinZERO]

Daddy555 wrote...

MAIN QUESTION HOW DOES THE ILLUSIVE MAN CONTROL YOU ??? he has magic powers now!! there are more but id like these solved please

Codex states that heavily indoctrinated individuals can act as relays for the reaper command signal. Combined with the fact the Cerberus was working on tech to co-opt the reaper command signal in order to control indoctrinated units, it's actually one of the few things that happen in the ending that make complete sense

(There's really no doubt Shepard was feeling the strain of indoctrination during that scene, even if he isn't a pawn of the reapers and still has his faculties.)

Modifié par RyuujinZERO, 07 mai 2012 - 07:43 .

[floppypig16]

Daddy555 wrote...

How does TIM take control of sheperd and anderson?? he has no ability to directly control anyone.... there was one walkway to the terminal how did anderson get there ....

were did the magic lift come from......how come we hear over the radio that the entire team was wiped out but im walking towards the beam..... what about the dream with the strange shadows in you cant deny it fits the racni queens description of indoctrination... .. when sheperd shoots anderson sheperd also whinces in pain ???......whats with all the blackness sorrounding the screen during the tim scene

MAIN QUESTION HOW DOES THE ILLUSIVE MAN CONTROL YOU ??? he has magic powers now!! there are more but id like these solved please

Not a problem.

On the Cereberus HQ mission, if you look at the last log just before the confrontation with Leng, you'll find out the Illusive Man has been implanted with Reaper tech that gives him the power to control (which he created through research done by Henry Lawson. THis is why you shoot Anderson when his hand goes all biotic purple (that's him using his new Reaper tech).

The entire team was wiped out. When that message was being relayed, you were still down - presumably dead. 

The dreams were there a symbolic representation of Sheaprd's guilt because of his inability to save everyone - nothing more.

He winces in pain cose he just shot his teacher and friend - its an emotional pain wince, not a physical one. The blackness is there because you're being controlled by TIM. NOT THE REAPERS - TIM, due to his reaper tech. 

EDIT; sorry forgot the Anderson getting there one. He states the place is constantly shifting. This obviously a big clue to tell you the corridors and stuff obviously moved around. Think of the moving stairways in Hogwarts. Like that. 

Modifié par floppypig16, 07 mai 2012 - 07:45 .

[RyuujinZERO]

floppypig16 wrote...

EDIT; sorry forgot the Anderson getting there one. He states the place is constantly shifting. This obviously a big clue to tell you the corridors and stuff obviously moved around. Think of the moving stairways in Hogwarts. Like that. 

We also know fro the leaked script they cut some corners in that scene. in the originals cript Anderson helps carry Shepard to the control room. The fact they split them up to cut out the need for animations and then gave a half-arse explanation for why doesn't really change that the underlying intention was that Anderson and Shepard are LITERLLY meant to reach the control room together, it's not a metaphor or anything.

[floppypig16]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

Interesting, we both came up with pretty much two completely different reasons for most of these.

Kind of. Only the first point is vastly different. The rest are different interpretations sure, but they express the same idea in the end.