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For anti IT members please explain the plot holes that IT fills

Débuté par Daddy555 , mai 07 2012 02:47

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#151
Guest_slyguy200_*
Posté 07 mai 2012 - 08:13

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EternalAmbiguity wrote...

slyguy200 wrote...

plot holes:
1. why does it dismiss our choices

2. synthesis space magic

3. Why do paragon and renegade get the same outcomes

4. Mass relay destruction destroys entire systems, right?

5. Crew abandons you and somehow manages to get picked up

6. Additions to the crucible, why involve the catalyst

Those are a few.


Wikipedia says...

A plot hole[/b], or plothole[/b], is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot, or constitutes a blatant omission of relevant information regarding the plot. These include such things as unlikely behaviour or actions of characters, illogical or impossible events, events happening for no apparent reason, or statements/events that contradict earlier events in the storyline. 


1. We never had any more c hoice than we were presented with in ME3's ending. I'm not being facetious or dismissive here, I'm serious.

2. That's a definite problem. I don't see how they can send this new type of DNA to every single organic being through natural means myself...but part of me wonders about things like quantum communication.

3. What? Be more specific.

4. Nope, you're wrong. Mass relays being crashed into by a planet-sized asteroid destroy systems. Mass relays deactivated by the thing that made them does not.

5. We already discussed that.

6. What? Be specific, and show the actual plothole.

1. I mean that the end was a very clear blanket and we were told that we would be getting more outcomes based on our choices, not freaking EMS.
2. It is a problem, yes.

3. No matter what you do, paragon and renegade are barely different in the end, when their outcomes should be completely different.
4. No they looked like they destabalized and exploded.

5. I must have missed that part. It still makes very little sense.

6. Liara or someone else mentions that none of the previous cycles ever had very much information about the reapers because they barely lasted long enough to learn anything about them. So why did the previous cycles make the crucible to be activated onec in contact with the catalyst when none of them knew what it was.

7. I forgot this one but i will put it in now. why did the events of ME1 ever happen if the catalyst is in control on the citadel?

Modifié par slyguy200, 07 mai 2012 - 08:18 .

#152
Mr Zoat2
Posté 07 mai 2012 - 08:16

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I can't explain them. If I could explain them then they wouldn't be plot holes.

#153
Daddy555
Posté 07 mai 2012 - 08:19

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the mass effect ending should have never come to this.....i died inside when the normandy crash scene came on and credits poped up was the greatest anti climax of all time ......anyone have anymore news regarding the extended cut be nice to clear this IT issue up either way

#154
Guest_EternalAmbiguity_*
Posté 07 mai 2012 - 08:25

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slyguy200 wrote...

1. I mean that the end was a very clear blanket and we were told that we would be getting more outcomes based on our choices, not freaking EMS.
2. It is a problem, yes.

3. No matter what you do, paragon and renegade are barely different in the end, when their outcomes should be completely different.
4. No they looked like they destabalized and exploded.

5. I must have missed that part. It still makes very little sense.

6. Liara or someone else mentions that none of the previous cycles ever had very much information about the reapers because they barely lasted long enough to learn anything about them. So why did the previous cycles make the crucible to be activated onec in contact with the catalyst when none of them knew what it was.

7. I forgot this one but i will put it in now. why did the events of ME1 ever happen if the catalyst is in control on the citadel?


1. This isn't a plothole. It's BW telling us they'd give us more than they actually did. That's not very good, to be sure, but it's not a plothole.

3. What? First of all, calling them paragon and renegade is probably a mistake. Second, one option leaves the Reapers alive, along with the rest of the galaxy, while the other option destroys the Reapers and all synthetic life. Those are very very different.

4. Regardless of what they looked like, it doesn't make sense that, as I said, the thing that created them "turning them off" somehow would have the same destruction as a planet-sized asteroid crushing it.

5. I mentioned it in response to your first two questions.

6. They didn't know what it was, but somehow they figured out that it was necessary. This is stated in-game somewhere, I recall it distinctly though I don't remember where.

7. This was in your first set of questions. The events of ME1 happened because the Catalyst doesn't really have control over everything (including the Citadel), just over the Reapers. He can't pick the choices other than his Reaper solution, and that didn't work.

#155
AlanC9
Posté 07 mai 2012 - 08:25

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EternalAmbiguity wrote...

Daddy555 wrote...

no sign of the MAGIC lift till it activates serios space magic no attachments to anything nothing supporting it sheperd should have been WTF but he never batted a eyelid


The no attachments thing is a little unrealistic, but I think the writers were going for some way to completely separate off the Catalyst's area.


How is this unrealistic in the ME universe? Biotics move stuff without touching it all the time.

Modifié par AlanC9, 07 mai 2012 - 08:25 .

#156
floppypig16
Posté 07 mai 2012 - 08:27

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slyguy200 wrote...

plot holes:
why does it dismiss our choices

synthesis space magic

Why do paragon and renegade get the same outcomes

Mass relay destruction destroys entire systems, right?

Crew abandons you and somehow manages to get picked up

Additions to the crucible, why involve the catalyst

Those are a few.


1. As in why don't the choices affect the ending you get? They do. If you didn't get both Tali and Legion's loyalties in ME2 as well as other things you might not be abelt o get a peace between them. Also, if Wrex died and you lost Eve then the Korgan support isn;t going to be that great. Your Ems could be low and you might not be able to get all the endings - I'd say your choices mattered in that case. Furthermore, your choices weren't just about the ending, but also how the universe was affected - how the characters were affected - who lived, who died. I shot Mordin and Wrex - did you? In any case, what has that got to do with the IT theory?

2. We accept Mass Effect technology that propels us across the galaxy from a somewhat scientific codex entry, but the merging of organic/synthetic life is too much? THe crucible has been in creation over an extremely long period of time, over countless advanced technologies. You simply have to suspend your disbelief - as in most scient fiction/fantasty works. Even if you can't - again, this has nothing to do with the IT theory. 

3. They don't. They are similar on a personal scale, sure. But on a galactic scale, they are vastly, vastly, different. 

4. Ramming an asteroid into a Relay creating a supernova like effect does. Using a machine that harnesses the same technology as the relays probably doesn't. I think the catalyst would have told us if we were about to destory the galaxy. If that was the case, there wouldn't have been a point of telling us what each choice would do, he could have just said "it doesn't matter what you choose, everythings going to blow up anyway". I don't think that's the case. 

5. Already covered this earlier. Essentially, the crew thinks you're dead, you just got lasered by Harby. Also, it takes you quite a while to get up to the Citadel, have the convos, and get the Crucible running - more than enough time for a pick-up and escape. 

6. Obviously, at some point in time, the races realised the Crucible wasn't enough and that the Catalyst needed to be added to successfully defeat the Reapers. Vendetta makes this clear. 

#157
AlanC9
Posté 07 mai 2012 - 08:28

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EternalAmbiguity wrote...
3. What? First of all, calling them paragon and renegade is probably a mistake. Second, one option leaves the Reapers alive, along with the rest of the galaxy, while the other option destroys the Reapers and all synthetic life. Those are very very different.


Or is he saying that the game really should have alignment-based endings, and the problem is that it doesn't?

#158
Guest_EternalAmbiguity_*
Posté 07 mai 2012 - 08:29

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AlanC9 wrote...

How is this unrealistic in the ME universe? Biotics move stuff without touching it all the time.


Ah, that's so.

#159
Guest_EternalAmbiguity_*
Posté 07 mai 2012 - 08:30

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AlanC9 wrote...

Or is he saying that the game really should have alignment-based endings, and the problem is that it doesn't?


If that were so I'd say it SHOULDN'T.

But then we go into opinion, not fact and plotholes.

#160
Guest_slyguy200_*
Posté 07 mai 2012 - 08:35

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EternalAmbiguity wrote...

slyguy200 wrote...

1. I mean that the end was a very clear blanket and we were told that we would be getting more outcomes based on our choices, not freaking EMS.
2. It is a problem, yes.

3. No matter what you do, paragon and renegade are barely different in the end, when their outcomes should be completely different.
4. No they looked like they destabalized and exploded.

5. I must have missed that part. It still makes very little sense.

6. Liara or someone else mentions that none of the previous cycles ever had very much information about the reapers because they barely lasted long enough to learn anything about them. So why did the previous cycles make the crucible to be activated onec in contact with the catalyst when none of them knew what it was.

7. I forgot this one but i will put it in now. why did the events of ME1 ever happen if the catalyst is in control on the citadel?


1. This isn't a plothole. It's BW telling us they'd give us more than they actually did. That's not very good, to be sure, but it's not a plothole.

3. What? First of all, calling them paragon and renegade is probably a mistake. Second, one option leaves the Reapers alive, along with the rest of the galaxy, while the other option destroys the Reapers and all synthetic life. Those are very very different.

4. Regardless of what they looked like, it doesn't make sense that, as I said, the thing that created them "turning them off" somehow would have the same destruction as a planet-sized asteroid crushing it.

5. I mentioned it in response to your first two questions.

6. They didn't know what it was, but somehow they figured out that it was necessary. This is stated in-game somewhere, I recall it distinctly though I don't remember where.

7. This was in your first set of questions. The events of ME1 happened because the Catalyst doesn't really have control over everything (including the Citadel), just over the Reapers. He can't pick the choices other than his Reaper solution, and that didn't work.


1. Either way, still needs to be fixed.

3. Meh, you still die and still destroy everything.

4. It doesn't turn them off though. It destabalizes them then they fall apart and explode.

5. Yes, you seemed confused or something.

6. I will have to look around.

7. I don't see it that way, it says that it is in controla and always has been.

#161
Feanor_II
Posté 07 mai 2012 - 08:37

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Kaelef wrote...

Only BW can fill in actual plot holes because it's their story. All we can do is speculate..

This

#162
Guest_slyguy200_*
Posté 07 mai 2012 - 08:42

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floppypig16 wrote...

slyguy200 wrote...

plot holes:
why does it dismiss our choices

synthesis space magic

Why do paragon and renegade get the same outcomes

Mass relay destruction destroys entire systems, right?

Crew abandons you and somehow manages to get picked up

Additions to the crucible, why involve the catalyst

Those are a few.


1. As in why don't the choices affect the ending you get? They do. If you didn't get both Tali and Legion's loyalties in ME2 as well as other things you might not be abelt o get a peace between them. Also, if Wrex died and you lost Eve then the Korgan support isn;t going to be that great. Your Ems could be low and you might not be able to get all the endings - I'd say your choices mattered in that case. Furthermore, your choices weren't just about the ending, but also how the universe was affected - how the characters were affected - who lived, who died. I shot Mordin and Wrex - did you? In any case, what has that got to do with the IT theory?

2. We accept Mass Effect technology that propels us across the galaxy from a somewhat scientific codex entry, but the merging of organic/synthetic life is too much? THe crucible has been in creation over an extremely long period of time, over countless advanced technologies. You simply have to suspend your disbelief - as in most scient fiction/fantasty works. Even if you can't - again, this has nothing to do with the IT theory. 

3. They don't. They are similar on a personal scale, sure. But on a galactic scale, they are vastly, vastly, different. 

4. Ramming an asteroid into a Relay creating a supernova like effect does. Using a machine that harnesses the same technology as the relays probably doesn't. I think the catalyst would have told us if we were about to destory the galaxy. If that was the case, there wouldn't have been a point of telling us what each choice would do, he could have just said "it doesn't matter what you choose, everythings going to blow up anyway". I don't think that's the case. 

5. Already covered this earlier. Essentially, the crew thinks you're dead, you just got lasered by Harby. Also, it takes you quite a while to get up to the Citadel, have the convos, and get the Crucible running - more than enough time for a pick-up and escape. 

6. Obviously, at some point in time, the races realised the Crucible wasn't enough and that the Catalyst needed to be added to successfully defeat the Reapers. Vendetta makes this clear. 


1. I mean in ME3's ending. And EMS is a load of bull-****.

2. No, the space magic is a load of unexplained garbage too, ME tech is explained and is easy to deal with. But space magic? That is unacceptable.

3. Still to similar in the way they end up.

4. No, they destabalize and explode, not shut down and simply fall apart.I will bet that the catalyhst can lie and exagerate in order to get what he wants.
5. Not buying it.

6. Not buying that either.

#163
JBONE27
Posté 07 mai 2012 - 08:44

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Daddy555 wrote...

alot of you deny the IT yet never seem to be able to fill the gaps that IT fills truth is the IT is the only thing that brings any sense to an ending that without indoctricnation has more holes than i care to mention

im open minded i belive in the IT because it seems to have to many clues to be ignored many Look like they were placed there for us to see by bioware

if its not true fine i can go with that but can you explain the holes in the ending in a better more sensical way that the IT does

LETS HEAR IT

NO RESPONSES SUCH AS the exteded cut proves IT incorrect cos it proves nothing of the sort

the list of evidence to support the IT is massive and to deny all of them is silly . oily shadow dreams. sheperd having same eyes has saren and tim following control ending ECT YOU ALL KNOW WHAT im talking about i dont need to list them


I don't believe in IT, not because it is a poorly thought out theory that doesn't fill in the plot holes.  Quite far from it, it is well thought out, fills in plot holes, and (if it were true), would make an interesting twist for the ending.  The problem is that, from Bioware's statments, it seems unlikely that they will do that.

#164
floppypig16
Posté 07 mai 2012 - 08:45

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7. Think of the Catalyst/Citadel as one (this could also describe why it was originally thought that the Citadel was the Catalyst). The Reapers can't communicate with the Catalyst remotely.

If you remember in ME1, Sovereign connects to the Citadel in a very similar fashion to how the Crucible connects to it. It's not too much of a stretch to assume that when Soveriegn attached itself to the Citadel like it did, it was its way of communicating with the catalyst and opening the Citadel relay. Hence, the keepers were needed to send signals as the Catalyst can't seem to do anything on its own (hence, the name Catalyst). Thus, when the Crucibile docked, the Catalsyt "awoke" again, so to speak.

#165
Guest_EternalAmbiguity_*
Posté 07 mai 2012 - 08:48

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slyguy200 wrote...

1. Either way, still needs to be fixed.

3. Meh, you still die and still destroy everything.

4. It doesn't turn them off though. It destabalizes them then they fall apart and explode.

5. Yes, you seemed confused or something.

6. I will have to look around.

7. I don't see it that way, it says that it is in controla and always has been.



1. I'd say it was wishful thinking to say there'd be more than a few endings. Certainly not sixteen.

3. You're basing this on the Mass Relays, aren't you?

4. They really don't go supernova, though. That just doesn't make any sense if you think about the difference between an asteroid and the thing that created it. Besides, if that's not good enough, Patrick Weekes has said they were deactivated.

5. No, I'm not confused. Your crew obviously wasn't hit by the Reaper beam, and thus they fell back, where joker picked them up. Not hard to believe.

7. It is not in control in the sense that it can make these actual physical and activites, like going to the Keeper control room and deactivating that thing. I think the Catalyst is relegated to that place where you're lifted to at the end.

I really need to go, I can't spend ALL my time here, but I'll be back and I'll check for responses.

#166
floppypig16
Posté 07 mai 2012 - 08:49

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slyguy200 wrote...

floppypig16 wrote...

slyguy200 wrote...

plot holes:
why does it dismiss our choices

synthesis space magic

Why do paragon and renegade get the same outcomes

Mass relay destruction destroys entire systems, right?

Crew abandons you and somehow manages to get picked up

Additions to the crucible, why involve the catalyst

Those are a few.


1. As in why don't the choices affect the ending you get? They do. If you didn't get both Tali and Legion's loyalties in ME2 as well as other things you might not be abelt o get a peace between them. Also, if Wrex died and you lost Eve then the Korgan support isn;t going to be that great. Your Ems could be low and you might not be able to get all the endings - I'd say your choices mattered in that case. Furthermore, your choices weren't just about the ending, but also how the universe was affected - how the characters were affected - who lived, who died. I shot Mordin and Wrex - did you? In any case, what has that got to do with the IT theory?

2. We accept Mass Effect technology that propels us across the galaxy from a somewhat scientific codex entry, but the merging of organic/synthetic life is too much? THe crucible has been in creation over an extremely long period of time, over countless advanced technologies. You simply have to suspend your disbelief - as in most scient fiction/fantasty works. Even if you can't - again, this has nothing to do with the IT theory. 

3. They don't. They are similar on a personal scale, sure. But on a galactic scale, they are vastly, vastly, different. 

4. Ramming an asteroid into a Relay creating a supernova like effect does. Using a machine that harnesses the same technology as the relays probably doesn't. I think the catalyst would have told us if we were about to destory the galaxy. If that was the case, there wouldn't have been a point of telling us what each choice would do, he could have just said "it doesn't matter what you choose, everythings going to blow up anyway". I don't think that's the case. 

5. Already covered this earlier. Essentially, the crew thinks you're dead, you just got lasered by Harby. Also, it takes you quite a while to get up to the Citadel, have the convos, and get the Crucible running - more than enough time for a pick-up and escape. 

6. Obviously, at some point in time, the races realised the Crucible wasn't enough and that the Catalyst needed to be added to successfully defeat the Reapers. Vendetta makes this clear. 


1. I mean in ME3's ending. And EMS is a load of bull-****.

2. No, the space magic is a load of unexplained garbage too, ME tech is explained and is easy to deal with. But space magic? That is unacceptable.

3. Still to similar in the way they end up.

4. No, they destabalize and explode, not shut down and simply fall apart.I will bet that the catalyhst can lie and exagerate in order to get what he wants.
5. Not buying it.

6. Not buying that either.


1. Okay... that's your opinion. Which is fine. Again, I fail to see how this is related to the IT theory.

2. Ok, again, that's your personal level of suspension of disbelief. I can't help you with that. I was fine with it.

3. I disagree - as I've stated. 

4. The Cataylst doesn't want the universe destroyed - so his "lying" wouldn't be acheiving anything.

5. That's your problem.

6. This is stated in game. 

#167
ImmovableMover
Posté 07 mai 2012 - 09:01

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I hope this has been pointed out to OP, but just for thoroughness I will state why OP is bluntly wrong.

The lack of evidence in an opposing argument, or even an opposing argument at all, does NOT make the alternative true by default.

The most common place I see this logical fallacy (multiple even, argument from ignorance, argument from silence, False dichotomy, i'm sure there are more) is Evolution/creationism. It's as wrong here as it is there.

The Burden of Proof is on your shoulders, IT crowd, and thus far you've failed to do very much but blow a **** ton of hot air everywhere with your pet theory that you've not even taken the time to examine. OP is unquestionably guilty of this as he is still under the impression that the "Oily Shadows" nonesense is still valid - It has been debunked and is easily debunked if you examine what is being said in any detail.

But IT guys don't do that, they just jump on the first thing that makes superficial sense and cling to it as if it proves the world is flat - Just like all Conspiracy theorists do.

#168
ME 3
Posté 07 mai 2012 - 09:04

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Just wandering, does anyone actually know what catalyst does?
It basically speeds up the rate of a chemical reaction.
A bit of an odd thing that no-one ever asks what the word catalyst means, that's the first thing i'd have done.

#169
Guest_slyguy200_*
Posté 07 mai 2012 - 09:50

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EternalAmbiguity wrote...

slyguy200 wrote...

1. Either way, still needs to be fixed.

3. Meh, you still die and still destroy everything.

4. It doesn't turn them off though. It destabalizes them then they fall apart and explode.

5. Yes, you seemed confused or something.

6. I will have to look around.

7. I don't see it that way, it says that it is in controla and always has been.



1. I'd say it was wishful thinking to say there'd be more than a few endings. Certainly not sixteen.

3. You're basing this on the Mass Relays, aren't you?

4. They really don't go supernova, though. That just doesn't make any sense if you think about the difference between an asteroid and the thing that created it. Besides, if that's not good enough, Patrick Weekes has said they were deactivated.

5. No, I'm not confused. Your crew obviously wasn't hit by the Reaper beam, and thus they fell back, where joker picked them up. Not hard to believe.

7. It is not in control in the sense that it can make these actual physical and activites, like going to the Keeper control room and deactivating that thing. I think the Catalyst is relegated to that place where you're lifted to at the end.

I really need to go, I can't spend ALL my time here, but I'll be back and I'll check for responses.

3. yes

4. Right, cuz the crucible made the relays. What was the point of the catalyst anyway, all shep needed to do was go up there and hit some buttons. But no, they added the catalyst.
5.Oh, i get it. And harbinger left immediately after hitting shepard and the squad had no reason to stay away, especially with shep getting up and all.

7. He lifted you there, showing he does have control of the station.

Modifié par slyguy200, 07 mai 2012 - 09:57 .

#170
Guest_slyguy200_*
Posté 07 mai 2012 - 09:56

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floppypig16 wrote...

...
1. Okay... that's your opinion. Which is fine. Again, I fail to see how this is related to the IT theory.

2. Ok, again, that's your personal level of suspension of disbelief. I can't help you with that. I was fine with it.

3. I disagree - as I've stated. 

4. The Cataylst doesn't want the universe destroyed - so his "lying" wouldn't be acheiving anything.

5. That's your problem.

6. This is stated in game. 


1. And that is your opinion.

2. No it is fact. Space magic synthesis is unexplained trash.

3. Of coarse you do...

4. He wants organic life gone, which is why he tries to push you away from the destroy option. I was unaware that a galaxy was actually a whole universe.
5. Harbinger left right after he knocks you out, your squad didn't have to leave, and that is part of the IT if you know anything about it.
6. Where, i would like to see this.

Modifié par slyguy200, 07 mai 2012 - 10:01 .

#171
Guest_franciscoamell_*
Posté 07 mai 2012 - 10:26

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Release a game with an ending(bad, yes, but still the ending) and, some months after release an expansion to the ending that says it was all a dream is even more stupid than the ending already released. Let's wait for the Extended Cut, and talk about the modified ending then, please.

#172
Legion64
Posté 07 mai 2012 - 10:34

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Here is a plothole: The IT was made up by fans.

The ending is the ending. And they will only 'clarify' it with the extended cut.

Line of End.

#173
floppypig16
Posté 07 mai 2012 - 10:37

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slyguy200 wrote...

floppypig16 wrote...

...
1. Okay... that's your opinion. Which is fine. Again, I fail to see how this is related to the IT theory.

2. Ok, again, that's your personal level of suspension of disbelief. I can't help you with that. I was fine with it.

3. I disagree - as I've stated. 

4. The Cataylst doesn't want the universe destroyed - so his "lying" wouldn't be acheiving anything.

5. That's your problem.

6. This is stated in game. 


1. And that is your opinion.

2. No it is fact. Space magic synthesis is unexplained trash.

3. Of coarse you do...

4. He wants organic life gone, which is why he tries to push you away from the destroy option. I was unaware that a galaxy was actually a whole universe.
5. Harbinger left right after he knocks you out, your squad didn't have to leave, and that is part of the IT if you know anything about it.
6. Where, i would like to see this.


2. Having your own opinions is fine and all... but don't try pass them off as "fact" - you come across sounding like an ignorant idiot. Just a heads up. 
4. Replay the game, and listen more carefully. 
5. No, Harb left once you (Shepard) woke up. Don't know when that happened. Could have been 5 minutes from when you were knocked down, could have been 20.
6. Either Thessia, Lawson's factory or Cereberus hq - can't remember. I think it's HQ. 

#174
RyuujinZERO
Posté 07 mai 2012 - 10:44

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ME 3 wrote...

Just wandering, does anyone actually know what catalyst does?
It basically speeds up the rate of a chemical reaction.
A bit of an odd thing that no-one ever asks what the word catalyst means, that's the first thing i'd have done.

The expression catalyst is also used outside chemistry too. But yes, it basiclly means "Something that facilities an event without being becoming a direct part of it".

Which, is pretty much what it does in the game; it facilities Shepard's ability to set up a space magic ending of his choice by helping the process along both literally and figuratively... 

...HOWEVER: I still think they could've replaced him with clippy [b] and it would've been no less jarring, and just as useful...

Image IPB

Edit: Just for you guys :)

Modifié par RyuujinZERO, 07 mai 2012 - 11:01 .

#175
Father_Jerusalem
Posté 07 mai 2012 - 10:58

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Tide goes in, tide goes out. Can't explain that, can you?
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