52 réponses à ce sujet

[Aly666]

 Instead of further upgrading the combat system i perfer upgrading the talent tree for warriors/rogue/mages i wish templars for warrior was a little stronger and bioware made it more or so like a paladin. Also want to see some old talents be brought back a long with some new interesting ones. Maybe certain ones can open up like special class missions or even a unique guild you could join. Adding more quest not only makes the game longer but makes it interesting. It's not like bioware hasn't taken stuff out or added stuff in thier new segement. Just a thought i think (my opnion) alot of people want bioware to do stuff that doesn't even matter , alot have great ideas.

[deuce985]

I like the direction and I don't think it needs significant changes in DA3, IMO. Just some minor touches.

My suggestions:

-Better balancing. This is definitely the biggest complaint I have with the system. Overpowered Mages, Assassins and bosses. ESPECIALLY on Nightmare. The Deep Roads boss took me hours to kill...his HP was RIDICULOUS.

-Better targeting. This problem is mostly from the camera restraints. They need to bring tactical camera back. That would solve 99% of the targeting problems in the game for me.

-Cleaner animations. While this was a massive improvement over DA:O, some animations look fantastic while others are awkward.

-Toned down gore for a more realistic approach. Gore is fine, it just needs to be less cartoon-like, IMO.

-Spawning ninjas coming in waves. This speaks for itself but it hurts tactical gameplay too when you're blocking chokepoints on a Warrior. If you can see a room full of enemies without worrying about respawns, it changes my tactics completely.

I think most of that is fairly minor and can easily be improved, IMO. My biggest complaint is the balancing in DA2 and random spawning. Other than that, I liked the new combat direction.

Modifié par deuce985, 07 mai 2012 - 09:11 .

[Andraste_Reborn]

I think the spawning was handled much, much better in Legacy and Mark of the Assassin, which bodes well for DA3. New waves only appear sometimes, and in ways that make sense.

I completely agree about the balancing and the camera. Placing AOEs on nightmare is a nightmare. On the whole, though, I prefer to combat in DA2 to that in DAO and hope they stick with the direction. They just need to finesse it a bit.

Modifié par Andrastee, 07 mai 2012 - 09:28 .

[deuce985]

Andrastee wrote...

I think the spawning was handled much, much better in Legacy and Mark of the Assassin, which bodes well for DA3. New waves only appear sometimes, and in ways that make sense.

I completely agree about the balancing and the camera. Placing AOEs on nightmare is a nightmare. On the whole, though, I prefer to combat in DA2 to that in DAO and hope they stick with the direction. They just need to finesse it a bit.

I have the same sentiments about the targeting on Nightmare. It's even worse for me because I like to try and play the game in full real-time without pausing. But the way the targeting+camera is in DA2, makes that impossible. I find that counters the type of visceral gameplay they have. The combat is fast and fluid...I want it to remain like that. I don't want to pause constantly to input a AOE command. I'm not saying remove it, I just want more fluid and immersive combat without pausing as much. It's almost inevitable you'll have to puase at some point--that is ok. But practically anytime I want to AOE in DA2 on Nightmare...I have no choice but to pause. Tactical camera would all but remove the problem.

The DLC was definitely better but I'd like to see the respawning far more predictable. I hope they bring the boss fights back in DA3 but for the love of god, please balance them better than they did on Legacy. If you don't have the right classes and items, that fight is damn near impossible.

Modifié par deuce985, 07 mai 2012 - 10:30 .

[King Cousland]

It needs to be slower (but faster than Origins) and less gory (I mean explosions gory). And no ninja flips. That is all.

[Iosev]

The aspect of combat that I probably enjoyed the most from DA2 is the improved responsiveness. For example, in DA:O I disliked how you would select an enemy to attack and your character (if melee-oriented) slowly walked towards the target before finally being able to attack.  In contrast, when you selected an enemy that was relatively close to you in DA2, your warrior would lunge towards them, or your rogue would jump towards them.  While I agree that it may have been a tad too exaggerated, gameplay-wise I liked the responsiveness.  Perhaps there is a way to retain that responsiveness, but with more realistic animations.

The poor responsiveness in DA:O was incredibly pronounced during the latter parts of the game, where your characters were far more powerful than most enemies. For instance, there were many times where I would select a target for my rogue to attack, only to have that enemy getting killed before I reached it; then when I selected a new target, my character would slowly shuffle towards it, only to be killed by another ally before reaching it (this example occurs during the first moments of the Battle of Denerim).

Which brings me to the second aspect of combat that I enjoyed in DA2: the combat did a better job of staying challenging throughout the entire game. For example, in DA:O I was incredibly disappointed to find the Battle of Denerim to be so mind-numbingly easy since the enemies did not scale (bear in mind that I'm talking about Nightmare). In contrast, I found my entire, first playthrough of DA2 on Nightmare to be challenging.

With all of that said, I'm not saying the combat in DA2 was perfect, because I certainly believe that there is room for improvement. Just like many others, I wasn't pleased with the overabundance of wave reinforcements. Fortunately, I think Legacy and Mark of the Assassin exhibited tremendous steps in the right direction in that regard.

Finally, I'm hoping that Bioware implements friendly fire and resistances into more than just the Nightmare difficulty.  Whether it's reduced by a certain percentage or some other way, I would like to see these aspects of combat in the normal and hard difficulty levels, as these are part of what gives the combat of DA its strategic value (which also seems to be why many of the people who enjoyed the combat in DA2 are nightmare players).  I personally think that casual should be the only mode that is free off friendly fire, resistances, and so on (ideally that is the mode for people who are only interested in the story).

Personally, I would like to see only three difficulty modes in DA3:

Casual: a mode for players who are largely only interested in the story.
RPG Veteran: the default mode, that requires each player to understand spacing, combinations, resistances, etc.
Nightmare: the epitome of difficulty, that requires the player to master all aspects of the gameplay to succeed.

Modifié par arcelonious, 07 mai 2012 - 11:05 .

[Welsh Inferno]

The only way I can stand the combat at all is if I play as a mage or an archer. The waves and the over-the-top ninja jumping craziness being my biggest issues with it. I don't get it, DA:O combat had its issues like the shuffling/poor responsiveness yes yes, but instead of just fixing the all the combat related issues in Orgins and speeding up combat a bit, they went with the over the top craziness. Why?

It was slightly better in the DLC's which makes me hopeful.

Modifié par Welsh Inferno, 07 mai 2012 - 10:54 .

[Dakota Strider]

DA2 combat needs more than a slight adjustment, it needs to be taken apart, and start over. Unless Bioware wants to start marketing Dragon Age 3 as an action game, as opposed to an RPG. About the only thing that DA2 combat did not have was Pokeman creatures flying around.

Rogues teleporting? (besides being over the top, that goes against one of the cardinal rules of magic). Facing an opponent one second, and the next second executing a backstab against them? Mages swinging their staffs around like martial arts masters? Area of effect attacks with weapons that affect enemies out of reach from the weapon? No tactics or stategy needed, just get in range of an enemy and keep hitting the same attacks over and over.

Bioware's crpgs used to require a person to be able to think to get through a combat. Now it is nothing more than picking the most powerful weapon, and clicking buttons furiously. The only challenge is to keep from getting carpal tunnel syndrome from all the button mashing.

Modifié par Dakota Strider, 07 mai 2012 - 11:17 .

[deuce985]

Dakota Strider wrote...

DA2 combat needs more than a slight adjustment, it needs to be taken apart, and start over. Unless Bioware wants to start marketing Dragon Age 3 as an action game, as opposed to an RPG. About the only thing that DA2 combat did not have was Pokeman creatures flying around.

Rogues teleporting? (besides being over the top, that goes against one of the cardinal rules of magic). Facing an opponent one second, and the next second executing a backstab against them? Mages swinging their staffs around like martial arts masters? Area of effect attacks with weapons that affect enemies out of reach from the weapon? No tactics or stategy needed, just get in range of an enemy and keep hitting the same attacks over and over.

Bioware's crpgs used to require a person to be able to think to get through a combat. Now it is nothing more than picking the most powerful weapon, and clicking buttons furiously. The only challenge is to keep from getting carpal tunnel syndrome from all the button mashing.

I don't agree with this at all. The amount of tactical gameplay is arguably as much, if not more than DA:O, IMO. As a poster above mentioned, DA2 is far more challenging on Nightmare than DA:O. Secondly, the way most environments are setup, you can use your Warrior to block chokepoints funneling enemies to him/her easier. Lastly, DA2 features far more cross-class combination skills than DA:O ever did. They had combo spells in DA:O but they  weren't anywhere near the level of DA2's strategy. Having certain abilities feed off disoriented, brittle, or stagger was a great mechanic I hope returns in DA3. 

It was far from being "mindless". I had to enter battles with the right potions, poisons and bombs to survive a lot of Nightmare encounters. Especially the bosses. I'd even argue DA2 is less mindless than DA:O was later in the game on Nightmare. DA2 did suffer from some balance issues but so did DA:O. Being more actionish doesn't make it any less a RPG. That's what the ARPG genre is for. It doesn't have to be CRPG to be considered an RPG...

That's why RPG is the most diversified genre in the industry. You don't like it and that's fine. You're entitiled to your own opinion and nothing wrong with that at all.

Modifié par deuce985, 07 mai 2012 - 11:34 .

[Cantina]

After I started the combat the first time, I spent hours looking around my Xbox to find the coin slot.

[Zubie]

I don't really care much any more but good lord do something about those silly animations

[Yrkoon]

deuce985 wrote...

-Cleaner animations. While this was a massive improvement over DA:O, some animations look fantastic while others are awkward.

 

 Animations?  The animations are a massive improvement over DA:O?!

DA2's animations were horrid.  Embarrassing even.  I felt like I was controlling a party of  circus clowns.  The bugs bunny cartoon animations  were the reason I stopped taking the game seriously. 

Rogues that hop from opponent to opponent like crickets;   Mages that gyrate around their staves  like pole dancers at a strip club;  Warriors that raise their swords in the air and *fly* before hitting  an opponent...   And all of it  sped up to ridiculous levels, as if the game itself is ashamed and trying to fast-forward past its combat

Childish nonsense.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 08 mai 2012 - 02:26 .

[deuce985]

Yrkoon wrote...

deuce985 wrote...

-Cleaner animations. While this was a massive improvement over DA:O, some animations look fantastic while others are awkward.

 

 Animations?  The animations are a massive improvement over DA:O?!

DA2's animations were horrid.  Embarrassing even.  I felt like I was controlling a party of  circus clowns.  The bugs bunny cartoon animations  were the reason I stopped taking the game seriously. 

Rogues that hop from opponent to opponent like crickets;   Mages that gyrate around their staves  like pole dancers at a strip club;  Warriors that raise their swords in the air and *fly* before hitting  an opponent...   And all of it  sped up to ridiculous levels, as if the game itself is ashamed and trying to fast-forward past its combat

Childish nonsense.

Well, I thought they were better than DA:O. Especially when the posture of some battle stances looked like my character was constipated. DA:O surely didn't have great animations either...

Modifié par deuce985, 08 mai 2012 - 02:38 .

[Yrkoon]

DA:O's combat animations were... subtle, and there was a huge difference between the speed of say, a mightly blow and a riposte, thus projecting the feel of the weapon's weight and the power behind your swing. That was completely non-existant in DA2.

And when it comes to visceral combat, I'll take constipated over "look ma! I'm flying!". I'll take a good thrust of a sword through an opponent's stomach over... ooh! Awesomesauce! lego pieces everywhere! My dagger sure is explosive!"

[Dakota Strider]

deuce985 wrote...
Well, I thought they were better than DA:O. Especially when the posture of some battle stances looked like my character was constipated. DA:O surely didn't have great animations either...

I will take a slower, more realistic looking game, over wild and crazy eye candy, any day.

[wsandista]

Dakota Strider wrote...

DA2 combat needs more than a slight adjustment, it needs to be taken apart, and start over. Unless Bioware wants to start marketing Dragon Age 3 as an action game, as opposed to an RPG. About the only thing that DA2 combat did not have was Pokeman creatures flying around.

Rogues teleporting? (besides being over the top, that goes against one of the cardinal rules of magic). Facing an opponent one second, and the next second executing a backstab against them? Mages swinging their staffs around like martial arts masters? Area of effect attacks with weapons that affect enemies out of reach from the weapon? No tactics or stategy needed, just get in range of an enemy and keep hitting the same attacks over and over.

Bioware's crpgs used to require a person to be able to think to get through a combat. Now it is nothing more than picking the most powerful weapon, and clicking buttons furiously. The only challenge is to keep from getting carpal tunnel syndrome from all the button mashing.

+1

[deuce985]

Yrkoon wrote...

DA:O's combat animations were... subtle, and there was a huge difference between the speed of say, a mightly blow and a riposte, thus projecting the feel of the weapon's weight and the power behind your swing. That was completely non-existant in DA2.

And when it comes to visceral combat, I'll take constipated over "look ma! I'm flying!". I'll take a good thrust of a sword through an opponent's stomach over... ooh! Awesomesauce! lego pieces everywhere! My dagger sure is explosive!"

I'm not disagreeing and that's partly what I meant by cleaning the animations up. It's really obvious on my two-hand Warrior. Like you said, swings don't seem like they have weight behind them. I still think overall, the animations are better than DA:O though, IMO. I think the reason we see so much from the Rogue/Warriors gliding around is to close ground fast. It's a disadvantage to be melee, especially with the pacing of the combat. What other way are they going to get to the target fast other than gliding/teleporting? It would be a major balance problem if I press a ability and he takes 1 minute to run to each enemy. That would force people to make their parties mage/archer heavy. But yea, they can definitely clean some of that up.

[PsychoBlonde]

deuce985 wrote...

Well, I thought they were better than DA:O. Especially when the posture of some battle stances looked like my character was constipated. DA:O surely didn't have great animations either...

Not constipated, participants in the All-Fereldan Duck-Walking Championships.  I'm sorry, I'm an obese woman and I can get across a room faster than any character in Origins could.

I didn't mind the DA2 animations, but I can't say I really LIKED them, either.  For me, though, the biggest problem with combat in DA2 is that once you hit level 15 or so, it stops being new or interesting in any way whatsoever and just becomes a tedious cycle of hitting the same abilities when they come off cooldown until everything is dead.  The only time it becomes exciting is when you screw up, in which case you're probably going to wipe anyway.

Yeah, the game is more responsive . . . provided you don't try to get your mage to interrupt their final staff attack (the one where they hit the ground) to cast something.  Or move.  Or ANYTHING.  Because they will DAMN WELL FINISH THAT ANIMATION NO MATTER WHAT.  Yeah, the pew-pew staff in Origins was lame.  However, you didn't have *different* responsiveness depending on what part of their little dance they happened to be on.  I would actually rather have LESS responsiveness but have it always be THE SAME than to have wildly erratic responsiveness.

The waves actually didn't bother me that much because I learned in Origins that attempting to use choke points or other sensible tactical arrangements was futile.  The enemies would invoke their Magic Rollerskates and sidle around you anyhow.  In DA2 they got rid of the roller skates and replaced them with the mage that you cannot see or target that will drop a spell on you through three walls and annihilate your entire party in three seconds.  Same difference ultimately.  

[seraphymon]

deuce985 wrote...
I don't agree with this at all. The amount of tactical gameplay is arguably as much, if not more than DA:O, IMO. As a poster above mentioned, DA2 is far more challenging on Nightmare than DA:O. Secondly, the way most environments are setup, you can use your Warrior to block chokepoints funneling enemies to him/her easier. Lastly, DA2 features far more cross-class combination skills than DA:O ever did. They had combo spells in DA:O but they  weren't anywhere near the level of DA2's strategy. Having certain abilities feed off disoriented, brittle, or stagger was a great mechanic I hope returns in DA3. 

It was far from being "mindless". I had to enter battles with the right potions, poisons and bombs to survive a lot of Nightmare encounters. Especially the bosses. I'd even argue DA2 is less mindless than DA:O was later in the game on Nightmare. DA2 did suffer from some balance issues but so did DA:O. Being more actionish doesn't make it any less a RPG. That's what the ARPG genre is for. It doesn't have to be CRPG to be considered an RPG...

 Have to disagree completely. The tacticfullness as far as the main game goes was just not there, even on nightmare. DA2 nightmare challenege may have been more consistent throught the entire game, but that is because of the way the mechanics are set up, in which case you get weaker as you lvl eventually, kinda the opposite of DAO. Blocking checkpoints is only ever useful when you know where the enemies will spawn, by playing through it already,unlike DAo when there was waves you could see them coming ahead of time, so you had time to manuever. Cross class combos were made more apparent in DA2 and made use of each class working off another, where as in DAO only mages could, or a rogue and warrior shattering a frozen target which carried on in here. Really its no different, its just you have much more oppurtunities to do so, in which is not really needed but reall cuts down on the boredom of having to chip away tat the bosses huge health. Cause thats all it really was, a battle of lasting long enough., to chip away at the health, which becomes longer and longer actually. That is not tactful that is boring and tiresome. The only reasons nightmare is what it is is because of friendly fire, which was way off balance, due to the faulty mechanics of of the ratio of hp. Enemies having tons  while you and companions have next to nothing, so one aoe and down they go, IMO that is not a right way of increasing the challenge, the enemies do not get stronger, and they do not get smarter or have more moves available, unlike DAO where they get abilities and spell to throw new chalanges at you.

Can DA2 be hard yes, but i would never say hard that you need tactics, but rather cheapingly hard, and requiring more time, and more careful. Basically "mindless" the action itself i would say wasnt enough to not really be an considered an  RPG, but it is partly a reason.

[Kileyan]

Yep the combat was ok, but I'd prefer it either be slowed down by about 40% or even give is options to adjust the speed. The default in DA2, combined with the not so good camera, combined again with cartwheeling or leaping across the screen was just too much. I had to pause the game much more often than if the combat speed was just a bit slower and easier to follow. What the game had, actually slowed down the combat for me, even though it was frantically fast.

Don't keep reinventing the wheel Bioware, keep what you go, slow it down a bit or offer speed slider or something. Spend all your time making the classes, the items and how they affect the clases, the class specializations and so forth. Don't redo all the combat again, then cut corners on the class abilites, interesting items and cool class specializations.

Sometimes you have to stop reinventing, realize, this is good enough, and spend your time on the other things that are lacking, which with the right development, will make that "good enough" into really interesting.

[Aldandil]

seraphymon wrote...

 Have to disagree completely. The tacticfullness as far as the main game goes was just not there, even on nightmare. DA2 nightmare challenege may have been more consistent throught the entire game, but that is because of the way the mechanics are set up, in which case you get weaker as you lvl eventually, kinda the opposite of DAO. Blocking checkpoints is only ever useful when you know where the enemies will spawn, by playing through it already,unlike DAo when there was waves you could see them coming ahead of time, so you had time to manuever.

Can DA2 be hard yes, but i would never say hard that you need tactics, but rather cheapingly hard, and requiring more time, and more careful. Basically "mindless" the action itself i would say wasnt enough to not really be an considered an  RPG, but it is partly a reason.

I didn't prefer DA2 combat to DA:O, but saying that DA2 didn't require tactics is completely wrong. The fact that you can't keep your tank locked at a choke point throughout the fight isn't evidence to the contrary. The suddenly spawning enemies, while annoying as hell, did force you to prepare tactics that allowed for kiting away weak characters, taunting with warriors or rogues and careful AoE placement. I do wish that they won't use the same design element in DA3, but that doesn't mean that it's not tactical. We need to separate our subjective opinions from the objective statements we make.

[Cyberarmy]

Being faster, flashier i have no problems.
But my party using different mechanics from same type of enemies, I call bullocks.
Every humanoid in game needs to use samecombat mechanic, if i can use CCC they need to use it too.

And im not liking that we can dodge nearly ever area effect by simply running, i really dont like that in a tactical combat game.

[Sidney]

Dakota Strider wrote...

deuce985 wrote...
Well, I thought they were better than DA:O. Especially when the posture of some battle stances looked like my character was constipated. DA:O surely didn't have great animations either...

I will take a slower, more realistic looking game, over wild and crazy eye candy, any day.

DAO was clearly no more "real". It was slower but slow just let you see how insanely bad the combat animations were. There was no sense of weapon weight. I don't know where people imagine this - I guess rationalizing the slowness of things. There was no more feel that dagger were slower than swords at all.

[Sidney]

PsychoBlonde wrote...
The waves actually didn't bother me that much because I learned in Origins that attempting to use choke points or other sensible tactical arrangements was futile. 

Yeah, you could not chokepoint crap in DAO because by the time anything responded to a threat it was done and by them. You couldn't proect the mages with tactics other than shouting at people to make them hate you which really cuts against the whole "it is real" theory people have. The combat animations being showy and flashy plus the blood fountains made it harder to see what was going on at times but the speed wasn't really the problem.


The waves are not 100% bad. In some places it worked. I loved the feel when you are trying to free the Qunari from the fanatics because those people "Waving" in feel like followers rallying to the sounds of the fight - frankly a feeling that is oddly missing in most games where you slaughter a room of people 3 meters from the next bunch and they are oblivious - and they came from doors and halls like normal people not paratrooping.

Waves failed, badly, in a lot of places like the streets where there was no logical pplace for them to come from.