Sidney wrote...
Yeah, you could not chokepoint crap in DAO because by the time anything responded to a threat it was done and by them. You couldn't proect the mages with tactics other than shouting at people to make them hate you which really cuts against the whole "it is real" theory people have.
MILK FOR THE KHORNE FLAKES wrote...
Sidney wrote...
Yeah, you could not chokepoint crap in DAO because by the time anything responded to a threat it was done and by them. You couldn't proect the mages with tactics other than shouting at people to make them hate you which really cuts against the whole "it is real" theory people have.
THAT'S ACTUALLY EXACTLY WHAT I DID FOR DA:O ON NIGHTMARE. MY GO-TO STRATEGY WAS CHOKEPOINTING.
LOL, you never played a two-hander in DA:O and never activated either of the Sunders.Sidney wrote...
Dakota Strider wrote...
deuce985 wrote...
Well, I thought they were better than DA:O. Especially when the posture of some battle stances looked like my character was constipated. DA:O surely didn't have great animations either...
I will take a slower, more realistic looking game, over wild and crazy eye candy, any day.
DAO was clearly no more "real". It was slower but slow just let you see how insanely bad the combat animations were. There was no sense of weapon weight. I don't know where people imagine this - I guess rationalizing the slowness of things. There was no more feel that dagger were slower than swords at all.
Kileyan wrote...
Yep the combat was ok, but I'd prefer it either be slowed down by about 40% or even give is options to adjust the speed. The default in DA2, combined with the not so good camera, combined again with cartwheeling or leaping across the screen was just too much. I had to pause the game much more often than if the combat speed was just a bit slower and easier to follow. What the game had, actually slowed down the combat for me, even though it was frantically fast.
Don't keep reinventing the wheel Bioware, keep what you go, slow it down a bit or offer speed slider or something. Spend all your time making the classes, the items and how they affect the clases, the class specializations and so forth. Don't redo all the combat again, then cut corners on the class abilites, interesting items and cool class specializations.
Sometimes you have to stop reinventing, realize, this is good enough, and spend your time on the other things that are lacking, which with the right development, will make that "good enough" into really interesting.
deuce985 wrote...
Dakota Strider wrote...
DA2 combat needs more than a slight adjustment, it needs to be taken apart, and start over. Unless Bioware wants to start marketing Dragon Age 3 as an action game, as opposed to an RPG. About the only thing that DA2 combat did not have was Pokeman creatures flying around.
Rogues teleporting? (besides being over the top, that goes against one of the cardinal rules of magic). Facing an opponent one second, and the next second executing a backstab against them? Mages swinging their staffs around like martial arts masters? Area of effect attacks with weapons that affect enemies out of reach from the weapon? No tactics or stategy needed, just get in range of an enemy and keep hitting the same attacks over and over.
Bioware's crpgs used to require a person to be able to think to get through a combat. Now it is nothing more than picking the most powerful weapon, and clicking buttons furiously. The only challenge is to keep from getting carpal tunnel syndrome from all the button mashing.
I don't agree with this at all. The amount of tactical gameplay is arguably as much, if not more than DA:O, IMO. As a poster above mentioned, DA2 is far more challenging on Nightmare than DA:O. Secondly, the way most environments are setup, you can use your Warrior to block chokepoints funneling enemies to him/her easier. Lastly, DA2 features far more cross-class combination skills than DA:O ever did. They had combo spells in DA:O but they weren't anywhere near the level of DA2's strategy. Having certain abilities feed off disoriented, brittle, or stagger was a great mechanic I hope returns in DA3.
It was far from being "mindless". I had to enter battles with the right potions, poisons and bombs to survive a lot of Nightmare encounters. Especially the bosses. I'd even argue DA2 is less mindless than DA:O was later in the game on Nightmare. DA2 did suffer from some balance issues but so did DA:O. Being more actionish doesn't make it any less a RPG. That's what the ARPG genre is for. It doesn't have to be CRPG to be considered an RPG...
That's why RPG is the most diversified genre in the industry. You don't like it and that's fine. You're entitiled to your own opinion and nothing wrong with that at all.
Sidney wrote...
MILK FOR THE KHORNE FLAKES wrote...
Sidney wrote...
Yeah, you could not chokepoint crap in DAO because by the time anything responded to a threat it was done and by them. You couldn't proect the mages with tactics other than shouting at people to make them hate you which really cuts against the whole "it is real" theory people have.
THAT'S ACTUALLY EXACTLY WHAT I DID FOR DA:O ON NIGHTMARE. MY GO-TO STRATEGY WAS CHOKEPOINTING.
The only way you can chokepoint is if the mage/archer doesn't draw any aggro before the baddies engage the fighters at the chokepoint - this is bad because it means you aren't using your ranged characters at, you know, range. Otherwise they will prioritize the ranged characters who have done all the damage before they get to the chokepoint. Since the chokepointers have no real mass in the game even in narrow spots like under the castle in Redcliffe the enemy will just move between two fighters who can't stop them. They don't even drawn an opportunity attack or anything for having a baddies move past them because they wind up doing to truffle shuffle to try and attack something that is gone before they do it.
Aldandil wrote...
seraphymon wrote...
Have to disagree completely. The tacticfullness as far as the main game goes was just not there, even on nightmare. DA2 nightmare challenege may have been more consistent throught the entire game, but that is because of the way the mechanics are set up, in which case you get weaker as you lvl eventually, kinda the opposite of DAO. Blocking checkpoints is only ever useful when you know where the enemies will spawn, by playing through it already,unlike DAo when there was waves you could see them coming ahead of time, so you had time to manuever.
Can DA2 be hard yes, but i would never say hard that you need tactics, but rather cheapingly hard, and requiring more time, and more careful. Basically "mindless" the action itself i would say wasnt enough to not really be an considered an RPG, but it is partly a reason.
I didn't prefer DA2 combat to DA:O, but saying that DA2 didn't require tactics is completely wrong. The fact that you can't keep your tank locked at a choke point throughout the fight isn't evidence to the contrary. The suddenly spawning enemies, while annoying as hell, did force you to prepare tactics that allowed for kiting away weak characters, taunting with warriors or rogues and careful AoE placement. I do wish that they won't use the same design element in DA3, but that doesn't mean that it's not tactical. We need to separate our subjective opinions from the objective statements we make.
MILK FOR THE KHORNE FLAKES wrote...
GLYPH OF REPULSION, PROBLEM SOLVED.
Yrkoon wrote...
LOL, you never played a two-hander in DA:O and never activated either of the Sunders.
There IS a sense of weapon weight. You could practically feel the shift in momentum as your 2-h weapon swung around from the first hit to the second.
tankdogg937 wrote...
Combat doesn't really concern me as I play "party" RPG's mainly for story and character development. I will say that I did prefer the speed in DA2 to the slow plodding DAO. An average wave of darkspawn shouldn't take over a minute.
Aly666 wrote...
tankdogg937 wrote...
Combat doesn't really concern me as I play "party" RPG's mainly for story and character development. I will say that I did prefer the speed in DA2 to the slow plodding DAO. An average wave of darkspawn shouldn't take over a minute.
This but the speed in dragon age 2 is crazy fast needs to be slowed down a tad just so i t clears it up a bit... besides what is attack speed+ for when you gain it ?
First, regarding the tank, sory about the double negations but if you reread my post you'll see that what I'm saying is that not being able to have a tank stand at a choke point and make sure nothing gets past her is not proof of the absence of tactics. See, lots of negations, sorry about that, but I don't think I can make that point without them.seraphymon wrote...
the fact that you cant keep a tank locked ata choke point, is evidence to tne contrary? the fact that you cant wouldnt that mean that is less tactful? and again for a first playthrough you cannot plan for waves, you have to take them as they come, its about reacting, not planning, unless you have already played. however because they are normally soo weak it hardly mattered, much unless there was alot of assassin types or a boss.
Aside from mage characters, rogues and warrior had soo few dmging dealing abilities, that alot of the time im just sitting there waiting for the long cooldowns on a fast paced battle, so when waves come, there isnt much you can do, cept run away. The kiting in this game was just ridiculous, because you could almost always rely on it, with a ranged character. in DAO you couldnt really do that as much on your own, because you cant run and attack usually.
I have my opinions, and it may differ from player to player, but for me aside from the DLS it just wasnt that tactful even on nightmare, just a tedious nuisance, that repeats itself thruought the entire game, with the only change being having more access to abilities.
tankdogg937 wrote...
Aly666 wrote...
tankdogg937 wrote...
Combat doesn't really concern me as I play "party" RPG's mainly for story and character development. I will say that I did prefer the speed in DA2 to the slow plodding DAO. An average wave of darkspawn shouldn't take over a minute.
This but the speed in dragon age 2 is crazy fast needs to be slowed down a tad just so i t clears it up a bit... besides what is attack speed+ for when you gain it ?
Oh I agree the speed could be taken down a bit. Maybe 30% less. Just not so sloooooow that I can write a college paper before my character can even get 30 slashes in.
Rawgrim wrote...
When oversized swords look like they weigh nothing, and when people explode from a poke from a sword, its not fine. Not at all.
Aldandil wrote...
Not being able to plan the entire battle from beginning to end doesn't mean that combat isn't tactical, but it forces you to adopt tactics that leave you prepared for the unexpected. If you nuke away your mana early on, you will have run out if there is another wave. It didn't take me long during my first playthrough to realize that another wave might be coming after I finish the first enemies.
What makes DA2 tactical is that you have to manage your limited resources and try to manipulate the battlefield so that your resources have the highest possible effect, while minimizing damage done to your party. Just because the tools for doing this aren't identical to other games (and they really aren't all that different) and the encounter design is a little bit different, that doesn't suddenly remove all elements of tactics in the game. In some ways, the fact that you don't know what's coming from the start will force you to be even more creative tactically.
chunkyman wrote...
DA2 combat was goofy. Instead of throwing poisons at enemies, Hawke decides to throw the poison straight up in the air and spin-kick the bottle at the enemies. Meat explosions were standard too, unfortunately.
Aldandil wrote...
First, regarding the tank, sory about the double negations but if you reread my post you'll see that what I'm saying is that not being able to have a tank stand at a choke point and make sure nothing gets past her is not proof of the absence of tactics. See, lots of negations, sorry about that, but I don't think I can make that point without them.
Not being able to plan the entire battle from beginning to end doesn't mean that combat isn't tactical, but it forces you to adopt tactics that leave you prepared for the unexpected. If you nuke away your mana early on, you will have run out if there is another wave. It didn't take me long during my first playthrough to realize that another wave might be coming after I finish the first enemies.
What makes DA2 tactical is that you have to manage your limited resources and try to manipulate the battlefield so that your resources have the highest possible effect, while minimizing damage done to your party. Just because the tools for doing this aren't identical to other games (and they really aren't all that different) and the encounter design is a little bit different, that doesn't suddenly remove all elements of tactics in the game. In some ways, the fact that you don't know what's coming from the start will force you to be even more creative tactically.
Sure, I'm not overly fond of the randomly spawning enemies either, but I'm sick and tired of people saying that it makes the game less tactical, or in the case of this argument, not tactical at all. The waves may feel contrived, but you still need to have some form of tactics, that's all I'm saying.BobSmith101 wrote...
Aldandil wrote...
Not being able to plan the entire battle from beginning to end doesn't mean that combat isn't tactical, but it forces you to adopt tactics that leave you prepared for the unexpected. If you nuke away your mana early on, you will have run out if there is another wave. It didn't take me long during my first playthrough to realize that another wave might be coming after I finish the first enemies.
What makes DA2 tactical is that you have to manage your limited resources and try to manipulate the battlefield so that your resources have the highest possible effect, while minimizing damage done to your party. Just because the tools for doing this aren't identical to other games (and they really aren't all that different) and the encounter design is a little bit different, that doesn't suddenly remove all elements of tactics in the game. In some ways, the fact that you don't know what's coming from the start will force you to be even more creative tactically.
Those are tactics as a result of the game system, rather than the game system requiring tactics that emulate combat.
Waves dropping from the sky makes no sense ,ditto for the tactics required to deal with them.
Probably the biggest difference between DA and DA2 is the speed. While in DA you can see something change direction and intercept it, in DA2 it's already happened. This is compounded by there generally being more enemies vs player units (quantity over quality) than in DA.
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