319 réponses à ce sujet

[Anacronian Stryx]

KingZayd wrote...

Reorte wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

The Reapers don't commit genocide if they can avoid it. They "elevate" organic species to immortality as Reapers.
As such, I can argue that, while not ideal, preserving organic life in Reaper form and opening way for new life is better than Synthetics simply destroying all organic life without even offering a second life.

Right... What exactly is left of the species when it's mushed and turned into a Reaper? About as much as when an individual is turned into a husk. Remember what Shepard said to the Reaper on Rannoch?

Not to mention turned into the Starchild's slave.

Nobody have any clue of how much sentience remains after being turned into gray goo(it is magic after all) and turned into a reaper but just imagine a fate of being part of a giant death machine endlessly doing to others what they did to you..over and over and over for millennia...yeah that ain't evil.

[Reorte]

MisterJB wrote...

Reorte wrote...
Right... What exactly is left of the species when it's mushed and turned into a Reaper? About as much as when an individual is turned into a husk.

Am I to assume that you have spent some time as a Reaper?
Unlike Husks, Reapers are sapient and they seem to really like their condition since they keep calling it "the pinacle of existence."

Remember what Shepard said to the Reaper on Rannoch?

Shepard has never been a Reaper so his opinion on the subject has little merit.

Well, if it turns species from something that's against galactic-scale genocide and doesn't want to be turned into mush into a Reaper that's pretty indistinguishable from all other Reapers and likes what it's doing then I'd say that there's nothing really left of that species.

[Shallyah]

It all boils down to:

Red = Defiance and Free Will (We decide ourselves if we're good enough to thrive without anyone "ascending" us)
Blue = Compliance and Defeat (We are not good enough, we do need Reaper-space-police. I'm just the new boss)
Green = Acceptance and Submission (We can't beat the enemy... so let's join them)

Modifié par Shallyah, 08 mai 2012 - 12:53 .

[Rip504]

unoriginalname1133 wrote...



I think that you are working from the same false assumption that the Catalyst did; namely that synthetics will always kill organics. Your potential interactions with EDI and the Geth refute this. There is also an assumption that becoming an abomination is better than being murdered along with the rest of your race (genocide was still present either way). Without these basic assumtions, the Reapers' many genocides become even more sinister, as they are rendered pointless on top of everything else. Incidently, I would have loved the chance to make this argument to the Catalyst in the game as well.

I agree with you,but you forgot that the Geth and Quarians have been hostile to each other for over 300 years,resulting in 2 wars between organics and synthetics... Just saying...

Edit: Not to mention ME1 where the Heretic Geth chose to follow the Reapers before becoming infected/indoctrinated...

Modifié par Rip504, 08 mai 2012 - 12:52 .

[MisterJB]

unoriginalname1133 wrote...
I think that you are working from the same false assumption that the Catalyst did; namely that synthetics will always kill organics. Your potential interactions with EDI and the Geth refute this. There is also an assumption that becoming an abomination is better than being murdered along with the rest of your race (genocide was still present either way). Without these basic assumtions, the Reapers' many genocides become even more sinister, as they are rendered pointless on top of everything else. Incidently, I would have loved the chance to make this argument to the Catalyst in the game as well.

War between two different people sharing the same space is inevitable.
Cooperation in the face of a common enemy is nothing new and that is the basis of turian/krogan and quarian/geth cooperation. Once the Reapers are gone, the peace won't last.

"Abomination" is a point of view. Life is better than death even if it life as a Reaper. And that is my point of view. Of course, I'm not surprised many don't share it.

[EnvyTB075]

Personally, the ending should never have had any moral questions. A player who truly believed that controlling the greatest power of the known universe would have obviously picked control, because y'know that kind of player may just have a lust for power. Someone who is a believer in trans humanism would have picked synthesis, and someone who just wanted to kill the reapers and let organics decide for themselves would have picked destroy.

Its so incredibly simple and fits so damned well with the whole Paragon/Renegade paradigm that BioWare has built up over the previous 2 games that it could actually have worked.

[pharsti]

Meh, itd make the endings even worse, i like the fact that its a somewhat moral choice.... besides, it would still consist of you, destroying the most fearsome enemy the galaxy has ever seen, by shooting a tube >_>

[Reorte]

Rip504 wrote...

I agree with you,but you forgot that the Geth and Quarians have been hostile to each other for over 300 years,resulting in 2 wars between organics and synthetics... Just saying...

Is that in any way more significant than organics being at war with each other? We've had krogan and turians scowling at each other after many centuries, following on from an unknown amount of actual war. Meanwhile, back on Earth England and France seem to have been at war with each other on and off until the 19th century was well under way, so let's round that up to 1000 years and that's the same species and not even the most disparate cultures. There's nothing unique in any synthetic conflict in ME.

[Rip504]

IMO
Green=Unexplained
Blue=Unexplained
Red=Limited Explanation as it is a simple concept...
All destroy the ME universe as we know it.
"If we lose what we are fighting for,then we have truly lost."

[Rip504]

Reorte wrote...

Rip504 wrote...

I agree with you,but you forgot that the Geth and Quarians have been hostile to each other for over 300 years,resulting in 2 wars between organics and synthetics... Just saying...

Is that in any way more significant than organics being at war with each other? We've had krogan and turians scowling at each other after many centuries, following on from an unknown amount of actual war. Meanwhile, back on Earth England and France seem to have been at war with each other on and off until the 19th century was well under way, so let's round that up to 1000 years and that's the same species and not even the most disparate cultures. There's nothing unique in any synthetic conflict in ME.

Other then the fact it is Synthetics vs Organics. And the Synthetics were willing to join the Reapers to survive,while destroying all Organic life to survive. Proving the Starchild's logic,and the statement made by the dying Reaper on Rannoch...

[KingZayd]

MisterJB wrote...

War between two different people sharing the same space is inevitable.
Cooperation in the face of a common enemy is nothing new and that is the basis of turian/krogan and quarian/geth cooperation. Once the Reapers are gone, the peace won't last.

Therefore, sharing a galaxy with the reapers means there will be war with them. Why not kill them now?

[YNation913]

Shallyah wrote...

YNation913 wrote...

Shallyah wrote...

YNation913 wrote...

Well here's another question, what if the Reapers were shown getting thrown into the sun in control? Hopefully, the EC's "context" will be the addition of scenes that depict the geth not dying in destroy or the Reapers dying in control...

I keep seeing this nosense around. The Reapers aren't puppets, and incase you've missed it the three million times it was said during the three games, the most primal and core purpose of any synthetic lifeform is self-preservation. They may even give up on free will or really anything else to survive. Even wipe out their creators before accepting to be destroyed (Yep, you know the Quarians, don't you?). Plus each Reaper is independant, each a nation, if you believe Sovereign (whom I respect ten zillion times more than the last minute godchild).

You're not gonna Control the Reapers and make them fly into a sun, stop dreaming. Even if you managed to convince one to do so, the massive Mass Effect cores they have would explode in such a way that would most likely cause the star to Supernova, wiping the entire system. So much for "not killing anyone".

Oh jeez, I forgot there were experts here.

 

Doesn't take to be an expert to notice that the Geth nearly made the Quarians extinct when the Quarians tried to shut them down, even being their own creations and subject to the command of the creators. What makes you think you can make the Reapers fly into a Sun? I know you, like other people who pick Control, want to justify the Control choice as the moral highground choice, but that argument goes nowhere.

When you pick Control, you choose that the Reapers will keep existing with all the consequences.

I actually never picked control because there isn't a scene that shows the Reapers being destroyed. Hence me thinking that the choice would be great if there were such a scene. Also, mass effect cores don't cause stars to go super nova, stars are too HUGE.

[Reorte]

Rip504 wrote...

Reorte wrote...

Is that in any way more significant than organics being at war with each other? We've had krogan and turians scowling at each other after many centuries, following on from an unknown amount of actual war. Meanwhile, back on Earth England and France seem to have been at war with each other on and off until the 19th century was well under way, so let's round that up to 1000 years and that's the same species and not even the most disparate cultures. There's nothing unique in any synthetic conflict in ME.

Other then the fact it is Synthetics vs Organics. And the Synthetics were willing to join the Reapers to survive,while destroying all Organic life to survive. Proving the Starchild's logic,and the statement made by the dying Reaper on Rannoch...

The fact that it's synthetics vs organics is no more significant than if it was organics vs organics. Some organics were willing to join the Reapers to survive (Saren for example). And I doubt that many organic species wouldn't turn to the Reapers if their survival was that threatened and they honestly thought that the Reapers would do more than hasten their end.

[jijeebo]

Shallyah wrote...

It all boils down to:

Red = Defiance and Free Will (We decide ourselves if we're good enough to thrive without anyone "ascending" us)
Blue = Compliance and Defeat (We are not good enough, we do need Reaper-space-police. I'm just the new boss)
Green = Acceptance and Submission (We can't beat the enemy... so let's join them)

lolwut?

How is control accepting "defeat"?

Shepard becomes the reaper mind, the reapers are no longer what they have been because that strategy no longer works... Thats why control is presented as an option.


Red = Playing it safe and being determined, almost to a fault (F*** the geth, I came here to destroy the reapers and that's what i'm going to do)
Blue = Sacrifice and preservation (I'll give my own life to preserve the status quo of the galaxy and EVERY race that has fought with me)
Green = ...? (Let's all merge or something and become green and shiny...)


Synthesis is a wierd ending but control in no way signifies "Surrender" "Compliance" or "Defeat"

[MisterJB]

KingZayd wrote...
Therefore, sharing a galaxy with the reapers means there will be war with them. Why not kill them now?

Why not use them instead and improve the life of every single lifeform across the galaxy?

[Rip504]

Reorte wrote...

So yes,The Synthetic Geth willing and knowingly joined with the Reapers to threaten Organics. The catalyst main fear. To me it is not much more significant,but to the Starchild it carries a great deal of weight.  I will not lie,I was a bit concerned by the Geth's decision,but I still brokered peace. Legion lies as much as Hudson... But I understand the situation and the issues the Geth faced. That does not change the fact of the choice that the Synthetic Geth made. An Organic race could never wipe out all Organics,as they are also an organic race. This is not the Starchild's concern,but rather that a Synthetic race killing organics could possibly wipe out all organic life.

Edit: And in our cycle there has been 2 wars and a 300 year conflict between Organics and Synthetics.
If you broker peace or not. So the threat does exist in our cycle. Our Shepard just happens to be better then the Reapers and Starchild and can broker peace between the 2. Something the Starchild brushes off,considering the conflicts and mistrust between Organic life and Synthetic life.

Modifié par Rip504, 08 mai 2012 - 01:18 .

[KingZayd]

MisterJB wrote...

KingZayd wrote...
Therefore, sharing a galaxy with the reapers means there will be war with them. Why not kill them now?

Why not use them instead and improve the life of every single lifeform across the galaxy?

Because as we've established, war is inevitable. This Crucible is our one opportunity to kill them.

[Hadeedak]

Shallyah wrote...

It all boils down to:

Red = Defiance and Free Will (We decide ourselves if we're good enough to thrive without anyone "ascending" us)
Blue = Compliance and Defeat (We are not good enough, we do need Reaper-space-police. I'm just the new boss)
Green = Acceptance and Submission (We can't beat the enemy... so let's join them)

I ... disagree with your interpretation.

I see Blue as the gamble, with a NO ONE GETS LEFT BEHIND and the uncertainty about how it will work. Shepard dies.

Red, as I read it, is the pragmatic approach. It may not be the nicest, but it gets the job done, for once and for all. It's over. No more reapers. And a live Shepard, maybe.

Green is for hopeless optmitists who think understanding each other brings peace! Forever! Too bad Shepard dies. Again.

[Aaleel]

They'd have given you an option to do what you've been trying to do for 5 years and three games.

But that would make the other two choices have no value so they had to attach some negative piece to the destroy ending. Because heaven forbid the crucible actually do what you made it to do.

Modifié par Aaleel, 08 mai 2012 - 01:15 .

[unoriginalname1133]

MisterJB wrote...

unoriginalname1133 wrote...
I think that you are working from the same false assumption that the Catalyst did; namely that synthetics will always kill organics. Your potential interactions with EDI and the Geth refute this. There is also an assumption that becoming an abomination is better than being murdered along with the rest of your race (genocide was still present either way). Without these basic assumtions, the Reapers' many genocides become even more sinister, as they are rendered pointless on top of everything else. Incidently, I would have loved the chance to make this argument to the Catalyst in the game as well.

War between two different people sharing the same space is inevitable.
Cooperation in the face of a common enemy is nothing new and that is the basis of turian/krogan and quarian/geth cooperation. Once the Reapers are gone, the peace won't last.

"Abomination" is a point of view. Life is better than death even if it life as a Reaper. And that is my point of view. Of course, I'm not surprised many don't share it.

Wow. If you're that cynical, you have problems that are simply too big to be solved in an internet forum argument

[Hadeedak]

Well, the other 2 games had 2 endings. Council? Y/n? Collector base? Y/n?

I'm not SHOCKED that our option level was low... except the part where we were told something else. That was odd.

[OH-UP-THIS!]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

If you really don't like it don't pick it. If you don't like the other 2 don't pick them. If you think the game has been ruined for you then trade it in and move on.

You know, actually make a choice (in the ending and in real) rather than sitting around complaining about it.

The point -------------------->



[Your head]

Not that I'd expect anything else of you.

Instead of asking other people to give you answers, like you always do because you never do anything yourself, how about you answer why it can't be the best choice?

Once you have your answer, tell us what you're going to do about it.

PERHAPS you should tell us what WE should do about it...............you seem to be ALL KNOWING AND WISE!

[OH-UP-THIS!]

brain_damage wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Their job was to sell these other options, not arbitrarily penalise people for picking the only option that even begins to resemble what we've been fighting for, for 3 whole games.

/ thread.
Kind sir, you win the internets.

Could we make that 10 internets?

[OH-UP-THIS!]

Wulfram wrote...

I think there's a decent logical case for picking Control even without dead Geth. Particularly if you clear up a few practical issues, like how you can control the reapers while dead.

It would be a minority choice, but I'm sure some would take it.  Even more would take it if the story leading up to the final choice wasn't so heavy handedly anti-Control - like allowing Shepard to show some sympathy with the objective, while opposing TIM's methods.

Synthesis is just gibberish.

control isn't any better, those big-baddies are still reapin'.

[Hadeedak]

ohupthis wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

I think there's a decent logical case for picking Control even without dead Geth. Particularly if you clear up a few practical issues, like how you can control the reapers while dead.

It would be a minority choice, but I'm sure some would take it.  Even more would take it if the story leading up to the final choice wasn't so heavy handedly anti-Control - like allowing Shepard to show some sympathy with the objective, while opposing TIM's methods.

Synthesis is just gibberish.

control isn't any better, those big-baddies are still reapin'.

Based on what, exactly?