181 réponses à ce sujet

[Keldon Northwind]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

Keldon Northwind wrote...

The Mad Hanar wrote...

@ Kelden Northwind, the writers are hacks? Yet the games were badass except for the last fifteen minutes? It seems like you don't understand why the games were badass.

By resources to other things I meant DLC for both the SP and the MP.

The two people who wrote the ending is who I'm referring to. The rest of the game is quite enjoyable.

Resourcers for MP or SP should be put on hold until the ending gets a complete makeover. Star brat needs to go. You simply do not put a toon in you've heard nothing about in two games previously who then has outrageous claims and forces you into three choices that are as outrages as the very notion of putting star brat in the game to begin with.

Except for the fact that the two of them played a prevalant role in shaping the stories of not only this game, but the first two. The fact that they're working on the EC for free combined with the fact that they're bringing in the VA's means they're losing a lot of money. They hear the fans, the trust in them is lost. There's a good chance that even if there was a new ending DLC, people wouldn't buy it. It would cost much more to make. The Omega DLC so many want? Forget about it. BioWare can't survive on the fans happiness, they're a company. Many employees who had nothing to do with the ending that would've otherwise gotten a break at this time will not because of the EC. If it were a new ending, they'd be even more screwed. They probably wouldn't get a break given the DLC and game development cycles. So not only would they be dealing with a fanbase that doesn't want to dish out money, they'd be dealing with overworked, disgruntled employees. That's not a way to run a successful business.

I don't pity them. I simply can't. If they had made everything right from the very start, none of this would have been necessary. We wouldn't be having this discussion and the fans wouldn't be this angry.

It's like me screwing up at work then claiming "it's alright, it simply transcends your understanding." I would not only be fired, I'd get such a bad rep that no other place would want to bring me in.

It's kind of what BioWare has done. They went with the premise that we're idiots and simply "don't get it."

[HiddenKING]

Because the endin sets the stage for what comes next in the Mass Effect Universe.

Changin the endin would force them to change or get rid of completely of their ideas for new games set post ME3.

[Keldon Northwind]

HiddenKING wrote...

Because the endin sets the stage for what comes next in the Mass Effect Universe.

Changin the endin would force them to change or get rid of completely of their ideas for new games set post ME3.

With the current ending, any possible games after ME3 set in the same universe feels kind of stupid. They have to retcon the ending if they want anything even remotely resembling a story in any follow up game. There are way too many plot holes to even begin of trying to work a story around the end of ME3, or post ending.

[Keldon Northwind]

The only issue is that the EC won't bring new gameplay, from what I've heard. Only a few cutscenes but that the ending remains the same. I have to ask, what is the point then?

I can understand some people wanting to fire the writers. They (the guys who wrote the ending, which is what most people are referring to) haven't exactly done a good job of it. Firing them would create a much larger problem, I think. I'd much rather have them bring in someone who can fix the atrocity because they have shown they can't. Claiming artistic integrity only gets you so far with the crowd. It's more or less calling us dim because we can't see the artistic vision they've created. (it's s*it, what's there to see?)

[HiddenKING]

Keldon Northwind wrote...

HiddenKING wrote...

Because the endin sets the stage for what comes next in the Mass Effect Universe.

Changin the endin would force them to change or get rid of completely of their ideas for new games set post ME3.

With the current ending, any possible games after ME3 set in the same universe feels kind of stupid. They have to retcon the ending if they want anything even remotely resembling a story in any follow up game. There are way too many plot holes to even begin of trying to work a story around the end of ME3, or post ending.

I've yet to see a so called "plot hole" that can't be easily explained.

And the endin sets up perfectly for stories (not necessarily games) post-ME3. Stories or games that deal with exploration and colonization of new worlds as many had their homeworlds and colonies devasted. The Asari, Turians, Humans, Batarians. Without the Mass Relays comes development of new technology, if the people who worked on the Crucible project can build somethin. And artifacts and Reaper remains would also be valuable. The Council had most of their dirty laundry exposed, and the other races have little reason to trust them anymore. There can be different political groups, each with their own goals and williness to achieve them. The Geth have been isolated for hundreds of years, and I can see them stayin that way. Quarians tryin to reacclimate to Rannoch would have little reason to be outside their system. Krogans either tryin to repopulate or near extinct. It's not hard at all to follow up Mass Effect 3, and the endin sets the stage for a politically fragile galatic community with exploration and colonization as it's main focus. 

[Keldon Northwind]

So basically, a Civ game but the ME universe? That would be wierd, to say the least.

[hoodaticus]

HiddenKING wrote...

I've yet to see a so called "plot hole" that can't be easily explained.

Really?  Let's discuss this one, then:

In ME1, we learned that only the Citadel controls the keepers - the Reapers could no longer control the Citadel.  This meant that Sovereign and Saren had to go in to activate the Citadel.

In ME3, we find out that the Citadel controls the reapers.  If this is so, then you are left with a plothole the size of ME1, because Sovereign and Saren were not necessary.

If the ME3 ending is true, and the Citadel controls the reapers, then ME3 never happened because the Reapers successfully invaded before ME1 ever occurred.  The Citadel self-activated and brought in all the Reapers long before Sovereign went trolling the galaxy for allies to help it take the Citadel.

If the ending is true, the ending must be false.  It's self-refuting.

Modifié par hoodaticus, 09 mai 2012 - 12:09 .

[daecath]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

Okay, I'd like to see a quote where BioWare calls fans idiots or say that we don't get it. Clarification *to me*, meant that they were filling the plot holes that people pointed out.

I'll match your analogy with one of my own. Say you're working at a restaurant and you spill mustard on the floor. You still have orders to fill and you do them. Then you clean up the mess. It took awhile to fix your mistake and there might be a stain, but the mess got cleaned up. (which is the EC)

Now imagine if your boss finds out and demands that you re-tile the floor. You feel that's not fair and refuse. Your boss responds by screaming at you for 2 hours straight, harasses you on your voicemail, email and Facebook until you apologize, re-tile the floor with your own money without getting paid for it and says that after you do so you deserve to be fired. (which is what the fans are doing)

Would you find that fair?

It's all subjective. To your view, they just spilled a little mustard on the ground. To my view, they took a sledgehammer to the floor.

You cannot clarify the ending away because the ending doesn't belong here.

They took one of several secondary plots and elevated it above the main plot (that being synthetics vs. organics). They then twisted every incident of that plot's occurance, somehow arriving at the conclusion that "all created will inevitably turn on their creators", when there isn't a single instance of that anywhere in the game. The geth were defending themselves and fighting for their freedom against an oppressor. The AI on the presidium did make a willful decision to rebel, but was also motivated by the rules against the creation of AI's. The Luna base VI became hostile as a result of external tampering. The machine factory in ME2 went hostile because of a virus. There isn't a single instance in any game of a synthetic making an unprovoked, willful decision to turn on organics. 

Then you have the space magic. How does TIM control you and Anderson physically when a reaper can't even physically control someone who is completely indoctrinated and heavilly implanted? How does a wave of energy differentiate between reapers, reaper forces, geth, EDI, and Shepard, vs. biotics, quarians, computers, AI's/VI's, and toasters? What the **** is "synthetic DNA", how does a machine have any kind of DNA? And how does a wave of energy reconfigure DNA, and spontaneously generate complex matter like circuitry and organic tissue? None of this kind of technology was ever introduced anywhere in the game, and if you say "well, it's because the society that created it was super advanced", then I'll counter with "why would they bother with the reapers in the first place if they could have just done their super-duper-synthetic-eraser-beam or the synthe-ganic-blendermatic-2000-pulse-modulator"?

The endings don't fit with the theme of the story. The endings betray the rules of the universe they created. And no amount of clarity or closure will change that fact. They blew up the **** restaurant, the least they can do is replace a few tiles.

[Keldon Northwind]

They then twisted every incident of that plot's occurance, somehow arriving at the conclusion that "all created will inevitably turn on their creators", when there isn't a single instance of that anywhere in the game.

Not to mention you brokered peace between the Geth and the Quarians. The Geth helped the Quarians settle in on their homeworld again, helping them re-start their immune system which has degraded by living in a sterile environment on their ships.

Just that simple thing blows the Star Brats logic right ouf of the water.

[Argenbar]

They're scared of making what we want because of snakes on a plane. The fastest way to make something bland is to find out what people like by committee and make that. Look at what pop music has turned into.

Snakes on a plane was ok, in a camp kind of way, but Citizen Kane it wasn't. You need strong creative leadership to make good "art". I can understand why they are afraid of changing the ending.

[HiddenKING]

hoodaticus wrote...

HiddenKING wrote...

I've yet to see a so called "plot hole" that can't be easily explained.

Really?  Let's discuss this one, then:

In ME1, we learned that only the Citadel controls the keepers - the Reapers could no longer control the Citadel.  This meant that Sovereign and Saren had to go in to activate the Citadel.

In ME3, we find out that the Citadel controls the reapers.  If this is so, then you are left with a plothole the size of ME1, because Sovereign and Saren were not necessary.

If the ME3 ending is true, and the Citadel controls the reapers, then ME3 never happened because the Reapers successfully invaded before ME1 ever occurred.  The Citadel self-activated and brought in all the Reapers long before Sovereign went trolling the galaxy for allies to help it take the Citadel.

If the ending is true, the ending must be false.  It's self-refuting.

If the Citadel controls the Reapers. It doesn't mean it will, or that it has too. Taking direct action would be admitting the solution isn't working. 

[HiddenKING]

Keldon Northwind wrote...

They then twisted every incident of that plot's occurance, somehow arriving at the conclusion that "all created will inevitably turn on their creators", when there isn't a single instance of that anywhere in the game.

Not to mention you brokered peace between the Geth and the Quarians. The Geth helped the Quarians settle in on their homeworld again, helping them re-start their immune system which has degraded by living in a sterile environment on their ships.

Just that simple thing blows the Star Brats logic right ouf of the water.

Peace was only achieved because of Shepard, and they agreed to work together against the Reapers. I doubt it would have been achieved if either one of them was not involved. It's the exception, not the rule. And you can't guarantee that peace will last 50,000 years into the next cycle. Tali says that there are open wounds on both sides.

[EnvyTB075]

HiddenKING wrote...
Changin the endin would force them to change or get rid of completely of their ideas for new games set post ME3.

I'm sorry, but if they were focusing on how to end it to make more games in the future, there is something seriously wrong.

[Dean_the_Young]

ReXspec wrote...

For a company that is backed by an even larger company with resources that are virtually unlimited, development difficulties are irrelevent.  Bioware is obligated to correct the mistakes they made.  The whole reason being that video games are a medium of artisticness that involve the fans.  You can't cut fans out of the equations and expect not to f*ck up eventually.

Well, this is certainly a beacon of ignorance, even in this thread.

There are no companies in the world with virtually unlimited resources, and Mass Effect 3 certainly was not a game with a blank check.

[Captain_Pants]

Vurculac wrote...

I wouldn't say that they were scared to change anything. I just don't think that they will. For one, they have already made their money, and two, I doubt they are going to spend too much time and resources on something that really isn't going to make them any money.

True enough, but if they make the effort and the EC actually gives us an ending that makes sense and provides a satisfactory conclusion to the trilogy it might prevent them from losing money in the future, as things stand and after the dissapointment of DA2 and the end of ME3 i'm not going anywhere near any ME DLC and will hold off buying DA3 until its been out a while and i've cheacked the forum reactions to it, as some1 who has pre-ordered CE editions of pretty much every BW game thats alrdy a loss (small i know) but theres a lot of people angrier than i am who i'm sure will do the same, but BW have earned enough goodwill with me for me to hold off final judgement until after i see the EC.  Although my hopes for it r very low

Edit: Typos

Modifié par Captain_Pants, 09 mai 2012 - 02:06 .

[Captain_Pants]

Sry double post

Modifié par Captain_Pants, 09 mai 2012 - 02:07 .

[leapingmonkeys]

Because it would cost them a fair amount of money to re-craft ME3 in a way that would actually have significant impact from prior decisions and asides from the money, it costs them resources (mostly people) who have already been slated to work on other projects. Fixing ME3 would cause all their other projects to slip, which would cost them money and I'm sure that they have decided that fixing ME3 would earn them very little money.

Sadly what this has cost them is future revenue because many people are not going to buy their games in the future and I suspect that the resellers are stuck with a lot surplus ME3 inventory which means they will be less likely to over-purchase Bioware inventory in the future (I suspect that EA makes it money by selling stock to the resellers rather than direct end-user sales).

[cavs25]

Scared? I don't think so.....Lazy..probably

[ScotGaymer]

As much as it pains me I feel I have to say this.

I don't believe the reluctance to change or expand the ending comes from any sort of fear or them just genuinely not understanding what the problem is.

I believe, and this hurts me to say, that it is simple Arrogance.

The PR statements about the whole thing give me the distinct impression that certain people at Bioware feel we are the whiney self entitled idiots that IGNorant called us, and thus are only dealing with us on sufferance until they get better fans.

Well Arrogance and Pride, is what is making them so recaltricant about the endings, I believe.

[Kurokenshi]

Fibonacci wrote...

Because it would be admitting to failure.

Even if they do rebuild the whole end game, removeing the spacekid Catalyst and putting in a boss fight with Harby, they will claim it was all done just for clarification and that nothing really changed from their original vision.

They will never admit that it was wrong.

What are you insane? Artistic Integrity is never wrong.
Next time I screw up the dev server at work I'm going tell my manager that, oh the laughs we'll have.

[Zix13]

No one knows. I feel like ego is by far the most likely reason. However, the "Ruin the IP so it can't be slowly ruined" theory also makes sense in a twisted way.

[t_i_e_]

They failed the first time making ME3 and instead need to bury this to the point that they don't get sued for false advertising. Either way were left with a cancer to our gaming hobby. Look at the path they are going down!

Nobody should be buying any EA products if their going to endorse lying and not completing products before release. Then making players pay to get key points from games or to pay for their product they didn't complete in time.

Others companies are going to follow their lead if you let them do it. Be a good consumer. Complain and do not buy their products. Rent, buy pre-played or borrow games that you must absolutely play. Make them hurt and listen.