217 réponses à ce sujet

[wsandista]

JustifiablyDefenestrated wrote...


Yep! And, DA3 would be the perfect opportunity to introduce all that ethnic diversity! Especially since it's going to be set in a previously unexplored country. Also, even England had contact with other nations-- they traded for tea and spices with India, they had African slaves, and retrieved (kidnapped) Native Americans. It seems like if there's going to be a hub-city, it'd be a good opportunity to present other cultures. I'm not saying that there should be equal numbers of every race--but it'd be nice to have a follower or two that wasn't necessarily caucasian.

This is one problem I have with including specific groups, Bioware will be called racist for basing these groups on historical cultures, even if they do so with the best intentions and base the cultures on historical groups like they did with the other groups in Thedas.

I actually feel well represented, I just feel like there could be a larger spectrum of representation.  And I'm not insinuating that Bioware is racist-- they're clearly not. I do, however, feel that fantasy settings and games in general favor a white persepective. Because it's a fantasy genre, there's no reason, other than tradition, for the next game to only depict caucasians. Bioware could have eliminated gay/lesbian romances because they aren't as common within our society, but they decided not to. They make the rules, therefore the rules don't have to conform to our idea of a traditional fantasy setting. That's all, just my opinion.

That is because Fantasy settings generally are based on European culture and myths, if they include a culture based on a historical African tribe that draws some elements from their myths, Bioware might be called racist by certain overly sensitive groups.

If they want to include non-white cultures, Bioware has to walk a very thin line between being inclusive and not being perceived as playing to stereotypes. I think that the best way to include non-whites is to simply have them be part of an existing culture, but then they might be called racist because they didn't give non-caucasians a unique culture or nation.

[slashthedragon]

Dakota Strider wrote...

wijse wrote...

There needs to be a handicapped person!

Sandal doesn't count?

Mentally perhaps, if he is truly an idiot savant.
It would be nice to see someone with a physical difficulty being awesome.  I tried to encourage my mom to run down screaming kids with her wheelchair (j/k j/k).
In FFX, I first thought Auron had no use of his arm, the one that he kept in his coat like a sling.  I was all 'wow! I bet he is badass and fights one handed with that sword of his.  (and no peripheral vision)'

Modifié par slashthedragon, 09 mai 2012 - 03:02 .

[brushyourteeth]

Yeah, but... Fereldan isn't England. And Thedas isn't just like the real world.

I think it's kind of awesome that in Thedas nobody is like "Wow! You have a different skin color than me!" It's really just a complete non-issue for them. That's my favorite kind of diversity - the kind that isn't even preoccupied with color.

[wsandista]

brushyourteeth wrote...

Yeah, but... Fereldan isn't England. And Thedas isn't just like the real world.

I think it's kind of awesome that in Thedas nobody is like "Wow! You have a different skin color than me!" It's really just a complete non-issue for them. That's my favorite kind of diversity - the kind that isn't even preoccupied with color.

That is because humans, whatever their skin color, can all get together and agree that elves are sub-human knife ears

[JustifiablyDefenestrated]

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

Regarding people with different skin colours being present in medievel Europe there is actually proof of that. And not being slaves but people who came to the north of Europe by boats and by themselves.

To be honest, did not know this a few weeks ago but there was another thread that handled this too from another point of view.

I commented on it not knowing that what I wrote above is the case.

Here is a link that sheds some light on the subject. This link regards Great Brittain:

http://www.nationala...intro/intro.htm

This is a link that's about medieval art depicting coloured people:

      (it's not an article but a movie)

Thanks for sharing! That's fascinating! 

wsandista wrote...
This is one problem I have with including specific groups, Bioware will be called racist for basing these groups on historical cultures, even if they do so with the best intentions and base the cultures on historical groups like they did with the other groups in Thedas.

......quote was here.....

That is because Fantasy settings generally are based on European culture and myths, if they include a culture based on a historical African tribe that draws some elements from their myths, Bioware might be called racist by certain overly sensitive groups. 

If they want to include non-white cultures, Bioware has to walk a very thin line between being inclusive and not being perceived as playing to stereotypes. I think that the best way to include non-whites is to simply have them be part of an existing culture, but then they might be called racist because they didn't give non-caucasians a unique culture or nation.

I think this is a very interesting issue. I think that there are two ways it could be handled: first, like you said, integrate race into pre-existing cultures (I personally like this) or it could be presented as it's own seperate culture--which could also be handled well as long as it doesn't descend into unwarranted stereotyping. I feel like no matter what, the elfs should be the place-holder for the slavery issue. 

brushyourteeth wrote...
I think it's kind of awesome that in Thedas nobody is like "Wow! You have a different skin color than me!" It's really just a complete non-issue for them. That's my favorite kind of diversity - the kind that isn't even preoccupied with color. 

I completely agree. Race should be a non-issue. It just seems to be more nonexistant than a non-issue, imo.  I like to think that Neil Gaiman's "Annansi Boys" does a good job--the protagonist is black, but I didn't even realize it until I was halfway through the book.  

Modifié par JustifiablyDefenestrated, 09 mai 2012 - 04:25 .

[brushyourteeth]

wsandista wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

Yeah, but... Fereldan isn't England. And Thedas isn't just like the real world.

I think it's kind of awesome that in Thedas nobody is like "Wow! You have a different skin color than me!" It's really just a complete non-issue for them. That's my favorite kind of diversity - the kind that isn't even preoccupied with color.

That is because humans, whatever their skin color, can all get together and agree that elves are sub-human knife ears

Right you are!

And I would really love to have a/some/all non-white companion/s. Just because I really think that's beautiful.

[Maria Caliban]

Listen, I can handle horned demons, broodmothers, elves, giant talking rocks, and shapeshifting dragon witches, but black people and Asians? That would ruin my immersion.

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

Regarding people with different skin colours being present in medievel Europe there is actually proof of that. And not being slaves but people who came to the north of Europe by boats and by themselves.

Thedas isn't some elaborate reconstruction of Dark Ages Europe though. The entire continent was once controlled by an expansive Empire that built massive roadways and was known to move around entire populations to work on social projects.

That means that in a country like Orlais, which is also a prosperous empire with lots of travel and trade, you'd expect to see 90% white people.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 09 mai 2012 - 04:00 .

[Ryllen Laerth Kriel]

Political correctness has become a high art form of the rediculous, especially when it is a rule applied to video games.

[Zanallen]

Set the next game in Rivain instead of Orlais. Bam! Most of the populace is now dark skinned.

[PsychoBlonde]

wsandista wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

But Thedas is obviously a land steeped in the culture, legends, and socio-historical realities of Northern Europe. Mixing in more non-white humans would ruin their careful reconstruction of the Dark Ages.

Well the Roman Empire(Tevinter in DA) did conquer many African nations...
Though that would mean all non-whites would be slaves, which wouldn't be a good thing for a color-blind game.

Slavery during the Roman Empire was VASTLY different than what came after, and it was not in the least bit uncommon for former slaves to become free, or for former slave-owners to later become slaves themselves.  Also, parts of Africa had thriving kingdoms of their own that traded with the Empire.

Rome (although not necessarily all outlying regions of the Empire) was highly cosmopolitan, and due to the high level of security enjoyed by most citizens (compared with what came before and after), people were quite likely to travel.

Now, in a fantasy world, you have one huge and problematic reason why people don't travel much: it's really, really dangerous.  In the real world, you have, what, bandits, barbarian hordes, occasional dangerous beasts (not really dangerous to groups of people, though), bad weather.  In Thedas, you have all of that PLUS:

1. Darkspawn
2.  Rogue magics
3.  Dragons
4. Demons
5.  Pissed off elves
6. Walking Trees
7. Flemeth
8. Werewolves
9. Ghasts
10. Flemeth
11. Wyverns
12. Strange altars that **** out arcane horrors
13. Walking Dead
14. Flemeth
15. And, of course, the risk of running into the PC and being liquidated because they find your voice "annoying"

It wouldn't be all that surprising if most people in Thedas don't travel much at all, and the only real road system was built during the old Imperium and not really repaired since then, because when you're working on the road surface you're not watching the nearby woods for any/all of the above.

[PsychoBlonde]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Thedas isn't some elaborate reconstruction of Dark Ages Europe though. The entire continent was once controlled by an expansive Empire that built massive roadways and was known to move around entire populations to work on social projects.

Does "continent" refer to Thedas, or Europe, here?  Because both apply: In Thedas, you had the Tevinter Imperium, in Europe, you had the Roman Empire, and they were pretty similar in many respects apart from the whole Mage thing.

[FKA_Servo]

Ryllen Laerth Kriel wrote...

Political correctness has become a high art form of the rediculous, especially when it is a rule applied to video games.

How-to-spell-ridiculous.com

This will turn into the white protagonist thread from a few weeks ago, and it will be stupid, because of the knee-jerkers who think "political correctness" is ruining society and loud people with strong opinions on things they don't understand.

That said - OP - full agreement. This should happen. Assuming it's based at all on medieval Europe (or even just an understanding of how society works), Thedas, the urban centers like Kirkwall and Denerim in particular, would likely be profoundly multicultural. Far, far more than they are currently, in any event. The fact that they are not is internally inconsistent.

[Sylvius the Mad]

What other human sub-types are there in Thedas? Do we even know?

Yes, I'll concede that some urban centres may well contain people from distant lands, but do people from those distant lands look particularly different?

[FKA_Servo]

We have hints. Obviously, we have the Rivaini (only two of whom have been characters of any consequence). Thedas is in the southern hemisphere, and we know that people live north of Rivain around the equator. We also know that there was an fairly advanced civilization of humans on Par Vollen when the Qunari invaded.

It's a fair point that most of what we've seen has taken place in Ferelden and the Kirkwall, and if you want to say that indigenous fereldens are white, I'll give it to you. But we know that there are other people in the world, and hell, we even know that there are other continents beyond Thedas, because that's where the kossith came from. If we're saying "oh, it's based on medieval Europe," well... huge port cities like Rome had thriving foreign trade. Vast portions of Spain were under Moorish control. Point being, people of all colors would have been a common sight in a big city like that. It's even more egregious with Kirkwall, which was the gateway to Tevinter for hundreds of years.

If we're ignoring that connection, well... then it's fictional world, who says it has to be whitewashed so excessively? Outside of the game, in the real world, there is a dearth of characters - protagonists, supporting cast, whatever - that fall outside of the "straight/white/dude" spectrum. Bioware is one of the few companies who actually address that, but they could go a lot further.

Modifié par TommyServo, 09 mai 2012 - 06:56 .

[Reznore57]

Well people from Rivain have darker skin , Isabella and Duncan.
Playing DA:0 I remember they were some black people in Ferelden.In DA:2 , I remember Hubert , who's from Orlais.
I wouldn't mind a black companion .
As far as skin and demography are concerned i don't know if we're gonna meet an area who's mostly populated with black people ,since the north is occupied by qunari.
Same with asian type , it exist in the game but we have no info about it.

[Sylvius the Mad]

As it happens, I didn't like dark-skinned Isabela. I modded her to make her white.

[Wulfram]

Kirkwall was one of the places that would have had the best justification for a wide racial mix. The Free Marches are supposed to be a diverse meetingplace of cultures - an aspect I wish we'd seen more of - and Kirkwall's a port city too.

[FKA_Servo]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

As it happens, I didn't like dark-skinned Isabela. I modded her to make her white.

Congratulations, I guess? Not sure what else to say, other than note that this is a crappy thing to do. It's sad and telling that you feel the need to whitewash one of the only persons of color in both games.

[Yggdrasil]

brushyourteeth wrote...

Yeah, but... Fereldan isn't England. And Thedas isn't just like the real world.

I think it's kind of awesome that in Thedas nobody is like "Wow! You have a different skin color than me!" It's really just a complete non-issue for them. That's my favorite kind of diversity - the kind that isn't even preoccupied with color.

This is exactly what color-blind casting means: a mix of different ethnicities without having to assign the Asians as being from this country and the dark-skinned people from that country.  Thedas is a made up world, and the developers can make it however they want, including a mix of racial diversity simply being how Thedas is populated.  Whether England or France of a certain time period were ethnically diverse is irrelevant.

I never intimated that Bioware is racist, and I hardly think suggesting a broader spectrum of ethnicities in the game qualifies as PC bullying.  Some people of color enjoy fantasy RPG's, and I'm just saying that they would probably like more to identify with in a world as wonderful as Thedas.

[Vovea]

I don't understand what you're talking about. Hawke and his entire family are black.

[Vormaerin]

JustifiablyDefenestrated wrote...

wijse wrote...

There needs to be a handicapped person!

Are you really going there? Are you really insinuating that non-white people are akin to handicapped? >.>

The OP is suggesting that non white people are equivalent to homosexuals.

I'm sorry, but this whole argument is silly.   Bioware should not be building a world specifically to include every ethnicity.   They should be working out what races exist in their world and what they look like, end of story.

Mass Effect was multicultural, because it made sense.   Thedas is not the sort of place that makes sense to be multi ethnic like that.   Whether they make them Asian (Jade Empire), Polynesian (Earthsea), ethnicities that don't actually look like any Earth groups  (Greyhawk), or caucasian (Dragon Age), it should be done to make sense for the world.

If Ferelden were on the border with other ethnic groups, like medieval Spain, then great.  If its the geopolitical equivalent of Scotland, then no.

Anything else and you are just pulling tokenist BS.

[FKA_Servo]

Vormaerin wrote...

The OP is suggesting that non white people are equivalent to homosexuals.

I'm sorry, but this whole argument is silly.   Bioware should not be building a world specifically to include every ethnicity.   They should be working out what races exist in their world and what they look like, end of story.

Mass Effect was multicultural, because it made sense.   Thedas is not the sort of place that makes sense to be multi ethnic like that.   Whether they make them Asian (Jade Empire), Polynesian (Earthsea), ethnicities that don't actually look like any Earth groups  (Greyhawk), or caucasian (Dragon Age), it should be done to make sense for the world.

If Ferelden were on the border with other ethnic groups, like medieval Spain, then great.  If its the geopolitical equivalent of Scotland, then no.

Anything else and you are just pulling tokenist BS.

With regards to the bolded - what indication do you have that supports this? At the very least, the rivaini contradict that - as do hints of other people living even further north in the many countries we haven't even seen. That's not even taking into account continents beyond Thedas.

We're also not talking about Ferelden alone, we're talking about Thedas. Assuming a basis in medieval Europe, Ferelden is roughly analogous to Britain. So going further north, towards the equator, is broadly equivalent to going south in Europe. 

Either way, having a rich array of cultures, and cosmopolitan population centers, is not tokenism. It's competent worldbuilding. And it's supported by the game and lore as they stand - just not implemented to the extent that one would logically expect. Thedas can and should be more diverse.

EDITED TO ADD: There is also so much that we don't yet know about the Qunari incursions, which could also be considered broadly analogous to the Moorish conquest in Spain. Specifically, we know that the Qunari came and conquered. We don't know for certain if it was exclusively Qunari kossith - it's possible that the force included humans, or other races even, from beyond Thedas. So that's huge swaths of northern Thedas that could conceivably have large numbers of humans transplanted from other parts of the world. What do they look like?

Modifié par TommyServo, 09 mai 2012 - 08:37 .

[Vormaerin]

TommyServo wrote...

With regards to the bolded - what indication do you have that supports this? At the very least, the rivaini contradict that - as do hints of other people living even further north in the many countries we haven't even seen. That's not even taking into account continents beyond Thedas.

Supports what?  I didn't make an assertion, I made an if/then statement.   If Ferelden is near other ethnic groups, then we should see them.  If they aren't, then we shouldn't.  

The rest of your post I can't make heads or tails of.  From what I can tell, you are agreeing with me?  That the decision should be made on the basis of the world building.

Of course there should be cosmopolitan places in the world.   But there are far more that aren't.   If I set a story in my world's equivalent of 10th century South America or Zimbabwe or Japan, there aren't going to be completely different ethnic phenotypes about.   If I set it in 10th century Egypt, I'm going to have all kinds of different human phenotypes

And if its a postmodern society, like Mass Effect, ethnicity may not have anything to do with culture for most people..

Also, in what way is Thedas not implemented well?  Its certainly culturally diverse.  There are some phenotype differences, too.   Its not a melting pot society, but given the travel technology, that's hardly surprising.  Long distance travel is going to be a rarity unless we assume some kind of magical travel is involved.

Modifié par Vormaerin, 09 mai 2012 - 11:34 .