217 réponses à ce sujet

[Sylvius the Mad]

TommyServo wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

As it happens, I didn't like dark-skinned Isabela. I modded her to make her white.

Congratulations, I guess? Not sure what else to say, other than note that this is a crappy thing to do. It's sad and telling that you feel the need to whitewash one of the only persons of color in both games.

I thought the pale skin suited her face better.  If she'd had sharper features, then I probably would have left the colour alone.

I modded away Jack's scars and tattoos in ME2, as well.

[wsandista]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

TommyServo wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

As it happens, I didn't like dark-skinned Isabela. I modded her to make her white.

Congratulations, I guess? Not sure what else to say, other than note that this is a crappy thing to do. It's sad and telling that you feel the need to whitewash one of the only persons of color in both games.

I thought the pale skin suited her face better.  If she'd had sharper features, then I probably would have left the colour alone.

I modded away Jack's scars and tattoos in ME2, as well.

Isabella looks much better pale, otherwise she looks like a ******.

[syllogi]

Yech. Just admit that you don't find "ethnic" people attractive, instead of claiming that Isabela looks "wrong" with dark skin. She's a beautiful character, and skin color does not determine the shape of one's facial features.

I am mostly offended by modders who label their Isabela White Skin mods as "Prettier" Isabela, but I know that different people are going to have different tastes, and use mods accordingly. But saying you're making the character "better" by making her white...just keep it to yourself, like the "boob holes in every female character's shirts" mods, or whatever else floats your personal boat.

[wsandista]

<a href="http://media.photobucket.com/image/guido female/dublindevil83/guidos/fg.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m288/dublindevil83/guidos/fg.jpg" border="0"></a>

syllogi wrote...

Yech. Just admit that you don't find "ethnic" people attractive, instead of claiming that Isabela looks "wrong" with dark skin. She's a beautiful character, and skin color does not determine the shape of one's facial features.

I am mostly offended by modders who label their Isabela White Skin mods as "Prettier" Isabela, but I know that different people are going to have different tastes, and use mods accordingly. But saying you're making the character "better" by making her white...just keep it to yourself, like the "boob holes in every female character's shirts" mods, or whatever else floats your personal boat.

I am attracted to ethnic people

I find this very attractive:





This is what i thought default Isabela looked like




See a difference?

[syllogi]

But Isabela looks nothing like that. You're saying that she looks good when "white" but she's ugly when dark. Don't try to pretend that it's not that simple.

Like I said, do what you like with mods. People make the characters look completely different, but they don't claim it's because the original looked "wrong"...maybe someone thinks that Morrigan should have long hair, or Leliana's hair should be a darker shade of red...again, whatever. That's personal preference. It's saying that Isabela's skin color makes her unattractive that I take issue with. Her features are attractive, and she has dark skin. If you don't like it, it's your personal preference at work.

[wsandista]

syllogi wrote...

But Isabela looks nothing like that. You're saying that she looks good when "white" but she's ugly when dark. Don't try to pretend that it's not that simple.

Like I said, do what you like with mods. People make the characters look completely different, but they don't claim it's because the original looked "wrong"...maybe someone thinks that Morrigan should have long hair, or Leliana's hair should be a darker shade of red...again, whatever. That's personal preference. It's saying that Isabela's skin color makes her unattractive that I take issue with. Her features are attractive, and she has dark skin. If you don't like it, it's your personal preference at work.

Try not to put words into others mouths ok.
Isabela's skin color doe not complement her features as well as it would more angular features IMO.

[syllogi]

wsandista wrote...

syllogi wrote...

But Isabela looks nothing like that. You're saying that she looks good when "white" but she's ugly when dark. Don't try to pretend that it's not that simple.

Like I said, do what you like with mods. People make the characters look completely different, but they don't claim it's because the original looked "wrong"...maybe someone thinks that Morrigan should have long hair, or Leliana's hair should be a darker shade of red...again, whatever. That's personal preference. It's saying that Isabela's skin color makes her unattractive that I take issue with. Her features are attractive, and she has dark skin. If you don't like it, it's your personal preference at work.

Try not to put words into others mouths ok.
Isabela's skin color doe not complement her features as well as it would more angular features IMO.

I'm not putting words into your mouth.  You're proving my point.  Or do you not know what "IMO" means???

*You* don't like the fact that Isabela has a dark skin tone.  *You* prefer her with light skin.  It's patently ridiculous to claim that facial features *only* look good with certain skin colors.  It's fine that you have a preference, but it's just your opinion.  You don't like her dark skin.

[wsandista]

syllogi wrote...

wsandista wrote...

syllogi wrote...

But Isabela looks nothing like that. You're saying that she looks good when "white" but she's ugly when dark. Don't try to pretend that it's not that simple.

Like I said, do what you like with mods. People make the characters look completely different, but they don't claim it's because the original looked "wrong"...maybe someone thinks that Morrigan should have long hair, or Leliana's hair should be a darker shade of red...again, whatever. That's personal preference. It's saying that Isabela's skin color makes her unattractive that I take issue with. Her features are attractive, and she has dark skin. If you don't like it, it's your personal preference at work.

Try not to put words into others mouths ok.
Isabela's skin color does not complement her features as well as it would more angular features IMO.

I'm not putting words into your mouth.  You're proving my point.  Or do you not know what "IMO" means???

*You* don't like the fact that Isabela has a dark skin tone.  *You* prefer her with light skin.  It's patently ridiculous to claim that facial features *only* look good with certain skin colors.  It's fine that you have a preference, but it's just your opinion.  You don't like her dark skin.

She would look best with dark skin, as in an African look that compliments rounded features IMO, instead she gets a skintone that looks like a fake tan. If bioware was going to implement a southern hispanic look, they should have realized that typically angular features compliment the skintone, while rounded ones do not. I don't like tanned brown skin on Isabela who has very round features, please do not make blanket statements based on my preferences concerning 1 character.

[Rorschachinstein]

Having a Dragon Age character speak in ebonics...............oh hahahahaha. Yeah. I'd buy that

[Sylvius the Mad]

syllogi wrote...

Yech. Just admit that you don't find "ethnic" people attractive, instead of claiming that Isabela looks "wrong" with dark skin. She's a beautiful character, and skin color does not determine the shape of one's facial features.

But people of different ethnicities do have different facial features.  Compare an Icelander to a Sicilian, for example..

Moreover, it's not just that Isabela was dark.  Her skin had a muddy tone. which I've never liked.  A smoother dark tone I may have accepted.  .

Compare Eva Mendes to Padma Lakshmi.  Eva Mendes is paler, but I very much dislike her skintone, while I find Padma Lakshmi's skin quite attractive.

[syllogi]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

syllogi wrote...

Yech. Just admit that you don't find "ethnic" people attractive, instead of claiming that Isabela looks "wrong" with dark skin. She's a beautiful character, and skin color does not determine the shape of one's facial features.

But people of different ethnicities do have different facial features.  Compare an Icelander to a Sicilian, for example..

Moreover, it's not just that Isabela was dark.  Her skin had a muddy tone. which I've never liked.  A smoother dark tone I may have accepted.  .

Compare Eva Mendes to Padma Lakshmi.  Eva Mendes is paler, but I very much dislike her skintone, while I find Padma Lakshmi's skin quite attractive.

Bone structure can vary quite a bit, and while specific groups may have shared features, it's pretty disingenous to claim that Isabela doesn't look "right" with dark skin.  She's not any particular real world ethnicity.  She's Rivani.

And, I don't know, crazy idea here, but if the problem was actually just that the dark skin tone was "muddy" or off, why not mod her with a better looking dark skintone, instead of making her white?  

Again, yech.  I really would rather not spend more time debating with people who would probably think I'm "wrong" for being racially mixed.  Too bad you guys can't mod real women.

[FKA_Servo]

It looks like this thread is going in precisely the direction I thought it might. 

Anywho...

Vormaerin wrote...

Supports what?  I didn't make an assertion, I made an if/then statement.   If Ferelden is near other ethnic groups, then we should see them.  If they aren't, then we shouldn't.   

The rest of your post I can't make heads or tails of.  From what I can tell, you are agreeing with me?  That the decision should be made on the basis of the world building.

Of course there should be cosmopolitan places in the world.   But there are far more that aren't.   If I set a story in my world's equivalent of 10th century South America or Zimbabwe or Japan, there aren't going to be completely different ethnic phenotypes about.   If I set it in 10th century Egypt, I'm going to have all kinds of different human phenotypes

And if its a postmodern society, like Mass Effect, ethnicity may not have anything to do with culture for most people..

Also, in what way is Thedas not implemented well?  Its certainly culturally diverse.  There are some phenotype differences, too.   Its not a melting pot society, but given the travel technology, that's hardly surprising.  Long distance travel is going to be a rarity unless we assume some kind of magical travel is involved.

I think maybe we misunderstood each other. I also think that my post probably wasn't as clear as it could have been ( I was posting at work earlier). I was first and primarily responding to your saying (very clearly) that Thedas is not the sort of setting that supports a multitude of races and ethnicities. I think it is.

I am basing this on world building. Ferelden itself may not be near any other cultures or peoples. I will grant you this. Indigenous fereldens may be white.  Again, fair enough. But it's a part of Thedas, and humanity on Thedas is not homogenous. We see this in the Rivaini. We can infer it from the undeniable fact that you can create a PC of any race, from the geography of the continent, and from what we know of the rest of the world. It's a setting that allows for a ton of diversity - and I would like to think that is deliberate.  

That said, I will re-state my opinion. I think that the game should be more diverse. Absolutely.  Popular culture generally, and video games specifically, have issues with diversity, in that they aren't very. Far more often than not, protagonists are straight, white, and male. Far more often than not, so is pretty much everyone else. Bioware is better about this - that you can define your PC's race, sex, and orientation, is pretty stellar. But they aren't perfect. After all, there are scarcely any non-white characters in DA, and the "face" of both Mass Effect and DA2 is... a white dude with brown hair.

I also agree with the OP insofar as I don't think they need a reason. They just can. But the fact is they do have a pretty well- realized world with distinctive cultures from different geographical areas. There are logical and historical precedents for a more diverse society than the one we see, and they should run with that. Anyone who dismisses this as "tokenism" - as though this is something bad - should sit down and reexamine their position, because they are arguing in favor of a pernicious and underlying brand of racism that is deeply entrenched in society and popular culture. 

Modifié par TommyServo, 10 mai 2012 - 04:11 .

[Rorschachinstein]

Yeah, It should never really matter where exactly they come from.

Example. What do you think when you look at Mexicans? Brown people with funny hats.


However, most people don't know is that half of all Mexicans look like this


Just kick Geography out of the window

[Maria Caliban]

Isabela does not look 'wrong' because she's dark-skinned. While I'm at it, it's okay for a woman to not meet your ideal of attractiveness.

[deuce985]

This thread...

[wsandista]

syllogi wrote...

Yech. Just admit that you don't find "ethnic" people attractive, instead of claiming that Isabela looks "wrong" with dark skin. She's a beautiful character, and skin color does not determine the shape of one's facial features.

syllogi wrote...

Bone structure can vary quite a bit, and while specific groups may have shared features, it's pretty disingenous to claim that Isabela doesn't look "right" with dark skin.  She's not any particular real world ethnicity.  She's Rivani.

You seem to have contradicted yourself, I don't like ethinic people because I don't like how Isabela looks, but since Isabela isn't actually any real ethnicity how does that work exactly?

And, I don't know, crazy idea here, but if the problem was actually just that the dark skin tone was "muddy" or off, why not mod her with a better looking dark skintone, instead of making her white?

Do you have one? If so, I for one would be glad to use it. 

Again, yech.  I really would rather not spend more time debating with people who would probably think I'm "wrong" for being racially mixed.

That is making quite a jump. There is a difference between a game character and a person you know.

[Silfren]

Vormaerin wrote...

JustifiablyDefenestrated wrote...

wijse wrote...

There needs to be a handicapped person!

Are you really going there? Are you really insinuating that non-white people are akin to handicapped? >.>

The OP is suggesting that non white people are equivalent to homosexuals.

Uh, no.  The OP said that just as Bioware has taken major progressive strides forward in providing content for the LGBT crowd, now they could stand to do the same for people of color.  That is somewhat different from saying that the two groups are equivalent.  Only if you actually meant that they face equivalent problems in being under-represented in video games.  Otherwise, no.

Modifié par Silfren, 10 mai 2012 - 07:23 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

syllogi wrote...

Bone structure can vary quite a bit, and while specific groups may have shared features, it's pretty disingenous to claim that Isabela doesn't look "right" with dark skin.  She's not any particular real world ethnicity.  She's Rivani.

I didn't say she didn't look right.  I said the skin tone didn't suit her.  I think she looks better if we change parts of her.

And, I don't know, crazy idea here, but if the problem was actually just that the dark skin tone was "muddy" or off, why not mod her with a better looking dark skintone, instead of making her white?

I'm not much of a modder.  I tried many Isabela mods, and most of them were pretty bad.  The one I ended up using happened to make her whiter.

That I used a mod to make her whiter does not mean that I specifically wanted her whiter.  I wanted to improve her (based on my preferences), and the mod I found that did that made her whiter.  You're the only person claiming a necessary relationship between those two things.

Again, yech.  I really would rather not spend more time debating with people who would probably think I'm "wrong" for being racially mixed.

I'm not going to address any more foundationless claims today.

Too bad you guys can't mod real women.

If I could mod real people, I would make them more logical so they'd stop jumping to conclusions and making emotional decisions.

[AkiKishi]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Listen, I can handle horned demons, broodmothers, elves, giant talking rocks, and shapeshifting dragon witches, but black people and Asians? That would ruin my immersion.

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

Regarding people with different skin colours being present in medievel Europe there is actually proof of that. And not being slaves but people who came to the north of Europe by boats and by themselves.

Thedas isn't some elaborate reconstruction of Dark Ages Europe though. The entire continent was once controlled by an expansive Empire that built massive roadways and was known to move around entire populations to work on social projects.

That means that in a country like Orlais, which is also a prosperous empire with lots of travel and trade, you'd expect to see 90% white people.

Like the Romans...

[AkiKishi]

slashthedragon wrote...

Dakota Strider wrote...

wijse wrote...

There needs to be a handicapped person!

Sandal doesn't count?

Mentally perhaps, if he is truly an idiot savant.
It would be nice to see someone with a physical difficulty being awesome.  I tried to encourage my mom to run down screaming kids with her wheelchair (j/k j/k).
In FFX, I first thought Auron had no use of his arm, the one that he kept in his coat like a sling.  I was all 'wow! I bet he is badass and fights one handed with that sword of his.  (and no peripheral vision)'

Dunban from Xenoblade. His right arm is totally paralysed, he even climbs one handed.

[whykikyouwhy]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

syllogi wrote...

Bone structure can vary quite a bit, and while specific groups may have shared features, it's pretty disingenous to claim that Isabela doesn't look "right" with dark skin.  She's not any particular real world ethnicity.  She's Rivani.

I didn't say she didn't look right.  I said the skin tone didn't suit her.  I think she looks better if we change parts of her.

And, I don't know, crazy idea here, but if the problem was actually just that the dark skin tone was "muddy" or off, why not mod her with a better looking dark skintone, instead of making her white?

I'm not much of a modder.  I tried many Isabela mods, and most of them were pretty bad.  The one I ended up using happened to make her whiter.

That I used a mod to make her whiter does not mean that I specifically wanted her whiter.  I wanted to improve her (based on my preferences), and the mod I found that did that made her whiter.  You're the only person claiming a necessary relationship between those two things.

Again, yech.  I really would rather not spend more time debating with people who would probably think I'm "wrong" for being racially mixed.

I'm not going to address any more foundationless claims today.

Too bad you guys can't mod real women.

If I could mod real people, I would make them more logical so they'd stop jumping to conclusions and making emotional decisions.

When we talk about changing the appearance of the companions - making Isabela paler, making Aveline more model-esque, making Merrill look less like an elf, for example - it's something that sparks a reaction because it would be altering how those characters were envisioned and written. Isabela, to my knowledge, was always intended to be a dark-skinned woman from Rivain - it's part of her overall stats, part of who she is. Make her lighter in skin tone or change her bone structure, and essentially you're chipping away at something inherent to her overall character. Not to say that it is wrong on the surface, but it's quite easy to see and understand how that can be viewed as being thinly veiled racism. Because when we start to discuss matters of color and appearance, and how they relate to race and ethnicity (even for fictitious characters), we get into emotional territory - we touch upon something that has had negative connotations, has had a history etched with pain due to folks being marginalized, oppressed, and reduced to a label or a name or an array of stereotypes. Where shades and hues should simply be beautiful facets of the whole human being, we have real world history in which the heated and contentious division between peoples is often marked by how different they look from one another.

Ultimately, mods exist for a variety of reasons - one such reason being so that folks can accentuate the game in a manner that may better allow for their own immersion. But often, the reasons for why a player may want a paler version of an NPC can ring hollow to those who feel that the companions should be left as the beautiful creations that they are - so very human in their dreams, emotions, and flaws, and varied in their appearance - from skin tone, to hair color, to body size/frame. Which isn't to say those the reasons for modding in that manner always have that negative undertone - but...this will remain a matter that does resonate emotionally, and so we should tread carefully in recognition of that.

Because in the long run, a game where a variety of peoples are shown, in creed, ethnicity, identity, etc, makes for a beautiful and vast world. And lots of folks hope that such a world isn't diminished in any way.

[AkiKishi]

whykikyouwhy wrote...
When we talk about changing the appearance of the companions - making Isabela paler, making Aveline more model-esque, making Merrill look less like an elf, for example - it's something that sparks a reaction because it would be altering how those characters were envisioned and written. Isabela, to my knowledge, was always intended to be a dark-skinned woman from Rivain - it's part of her overall stats, part of who she is. Make her lighter in skin tone or change her bone structure, and essentially you're chipping away at something inherent to her overall character. Not to say that it is wrong on the surface, but it's quite easy to see and understand how that can be viewed as being thinly veiled racism. Because when we start to discuss matters of color and appearance, and how they relate to race and ethnicity (even for fictitious characters), we get into emotional territory - we touch upon something that has had negative connotations, has had a history etched with pain due to folks being marginalized, oppressed, and reduced to a label or a name or an array of stereotypes. Where shades and hues should simply be beautiful facets of the whole human being, we have real world history in which the heated and contentious division between peoples is often marked by how different they look from one another.

Ultimately, mods exist for a variety of reasons - one such reason being so that folks can accentuate the game in a manner that may better allow for their own immersion. But often, the reasons for why a player may want a paler version of an NPC can ring hollow to those who feel that the companions should be left as the beautiful creations that they are - so very human in their dreams, emotions, and flaws, and varied in their appearance - from skin tone, to hair color, to body size/frame. Which isn't to say those the reasons for modding in that manner always have that negative undertone - but...this will remain a matter that does resonate emotionally, and so we should tread carefully in recognition of that.

Because in the long run, a game where a variety of peoples are shown, in creed, ethnicity, identity, etc, makes for a beautiful and vast world. And lots of folks hope that such a world isn't diminished in any way.

That's kind of the point of modding. You feel your version is better than the designers. While some people may get emotive about certain aspects of modding. In principle it's the same thing "I can do this better than you can".

[whykikyouwhy]

BobSmith101 wrote...

That's kind of the point of modding. You feel your version is better than the designers. While some people may get emotive about certain aspects of modding. In principle it's the same thing "I can do this better than you can".

As I said, mods exist and are used for a variety of reasons. But I feel that we should be aware how certain modifications may be perceived. Because when you apply "better" to matters of appearance/characterization, we tread into delicate waters. 

[AkiKishi]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

That's kind of the point of modding. You feel your version is better than the designers. While some people may get emotive about certain aspects of modding. In principle it's the same thing "I can do this better than you can".

As I said, mods exist and are used for a variety of reasons. But I feel that we should be aware how certain modifications may be perceived. Because when you apply "better" to matters of appearance/characterization, we tread into delicate waters. 

It's his game he can do what he likes with it. I doubt wanting a white or less tanned Isabella makes you a closet racsist. Making the game character more attractive is part of the fantasy for some people.