217 réponses à ce sujet

[whykikyouwhy]

BobSmith101 wrote...

It's his game he can do what he likes with it. I doubt wanting a white or less tanned Isabella makes you a closet racsist. Making the game character more attractive is part of the fantasy for some people.

Well, I wasn't criticizing how anyone in particular is playing his/her game. Nor was I declaring anyone a racist.

I was, and still am, pointing out that matters of appearance as they relate to race/ethnicity, even of fictitious characters, are sensitive matters. And so, in discussing them, we would do well to recognize that. That's all - simply recognition of why this topic might be important to some folks.

[AkiKishi]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

It's his game he can do what he likes with it. I doubt wanting a white or less tanned Isabella makes you a closet racsist. Making the game character more attractive is part of the fantasy for some people.

Well, I wasn't criticizing how anyone in particular is playing his/her game. Nor was I declaring anyone a racist.

I was, and still am, pointing out that matters of appearance as they relate to race/ethnicity, even of fictitious characters, are sensitive matters. And so, in discussing them, we would do well to recognize that. That's all - simply recognition of why this topic might be important to some folks.

If anyone is really that bothered they should not be wasting time on a video game board and should be out there changing the world. We are talking about fictional worlds , made up stuff. It's not like a game set in the real world, nor does it need to conform to some sort of real world ideal.

If Mods went beyond the individuals that downloaded them, there may be some substance to this.But what person X does in his/her game has no impact on anyone elses.

I find Irish red hair green eyes freckled skin babes and Oriental Asians really hot. That does not mean I want to see Thedas littered with them, although I would not complain

[whykikyouwhy]

BobSmith101 wrote...

If anyone is really that bothered they should not be wasting time on a video game board and should be out there changing the world. We are talking about fictional worlds , made up stuff. It's not like a game set in the real world, nor does it need to conform to some sort of real world ideal.

If Mods went beyond the individuals that downloaded them, there may be some substance to this.But what person X does in his/her game has no impact on anyone elses.

I find Irish red hair green eyes freckled skin babes and Oriental Asians really hot. That does not mean I want to see Thedas littered with them, although I would not complain

Soooo....folks who post on a game board are unable to change the world? They may be solely posting on a game board and not doing anything within their social or professional lives to enact or initiate change? That's a broad assumption - I know that I cannot speak for what people do beyond the small amount of time that they spend on the BSN, and I would not want to make such assumptions.

You made the earlier statement that mods exist because people feel that they can do "better" than the devs - make their fantasy worlds better, more appealing, etc. And that essentially how a person wants to play his/her game is their own prerogative. Ok...can't that same perspective apply to wanting to allow for ideals in their fantasy world? Isn't that also a player's desire or prerogative?

I don't see anything wrong with folks wanting more inclusion in their video games - that's a way to allow for people across the player community to better enjoy said games and fantasy worlds. And while they are fantasy, folks like to see something of themselves, something relatable within those realms. It helps with immersion and inspiration. And heck, it's simply nice to not have the standard hero prototype walking around year after year.

You seem to be taking my posts out of context. I'm not saying people can't play their games in the manner that they choose. I'm explaining why some people may perceive some mods as negative. I'm touching upon why people may feel that allowing for differences and variation in their game (and thus, leaving some characters intact) may be important. 

And...by the way...I'm not sure that people of Asian descent care much for the term "Oriental." It's often used as a slur.

[syllogi]

BobSmith101 wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

It's his game he can do what he likes with it. I doubt wanting a white or less tanned Isabella makes you a closet racsist. Making the game character more attractive is part of the fantasy for some people.

Well, I wasn't criticizing how anyone in particular is playing his/her game. Nor was I declaring anyone a racist.

I was, and still am, pointing out that matters of appearance as they relate to race/ethnicity, even of fictitious characters, are sensitive matters. And so, in discussing them, we would do well to recognize that. That's all - simply recognition of why this topic might be important to some folks.

If anyone is really that bothered they should not be wasting time on a video game board and should be out there changing the world. We are talking about fictional worlds , made up stuff. It's not like a game set in the real world, nor does it need to conform to some sort of real world ideal.

If Mods went beyond the individuals that downloaded them, there may be some substance to this.But what person X does in his/her game has no impact on anyone elses.

I find Irish red hair green eyes freckled skin babes and Oriental Asians really hot. That does not mean I want to see Thedas littered with them, although I would not complain

Not that I want to keep talking about this, but my original point was taking issue with two posters claiming that Isabela's features look "bad" or "wrong" with dark skin, and saying that the reason they mod her is to "fix" that.

If someone prefers pale skin, whatever, as I said, but also as I said, if it were ONLY about the shade of brown used, they could have easily modded her to a different shade of brown.  Claiming that she's more attractive when white is just yucky.  If you have a personal preference, fine, but dark skin doesn't make her unattractive.

Now I'm going to try to forget about this thread again.

[Cartims]

I love women of all skin color....Latin women are hot, so are Asian, Irish, English, Afro American, well all women are beautiful....so what's the freaking point again, I'm lost...

[AkiKishi]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Soooo....folks who post on a game board are unable to change the world? They may be solely posting on a game board and not doing anything within their social or professional lives to enact or initiate change? That's a broad assumption - I know that I cannot speak for what people do beyond the small amount of time that they spend on the BSN, and I would not want to make such assumptions.

You made the earlier statement that mods exist because people feel that they can do "better" than the devs - make their fantasy worlds better, more appealing, etc. And that essentially how a person wants to play his/her game is their own prerogative. Ok...can't that same perspective apply to wanting to allow for ideals in their fantasy world? Isn't that also a player's desire or prerogative?

I don't see anything wrong with folks wanting more inclusion in their video games - that's a way to allow for people across the player community to better enjoy said games and fantasy worlds. And while they are fantasy, folks like to see something of themselves, something relatable within those realms. It helps with immersion and inspiration. And heck, it's simply nice to not have the standard hero prototype walking around year after year.

You seem to be taking my posts out of context. I'm not saying people can't play their games in the manner that they choose. I'm explaining why some people may perceive some mods as negative. I'm touching upon why people may feel that allowing for differences and variation in their game (and thus, leaving some characters intact) may be important. 

And...by the way...I'm not sure that people of Asian descent care much for the term "Oriental." It's often used as a slur.

While a mod only applies to an individual a redesign does not. If it bothers someone that much they can do what Sylvius did in reverse and make everyone black if they want. It won't make a lick of sense, but it's their fantasy.

The idea of colour blind casting is inherently nonsense anyway. If I made a film version of La Morte D'Arthur , I could not cast a black a guy as Arthur any more than I could cast a white guy as Shaka.

The local take out is called the Oriental, does not seem to bother the people who own it. Asia is a big place it's too non specific.

[AkiKishi]

TommyServo wrote...

I emphatically disagree. Fictional worlds - all popular entertainment, but video games even more so - have a diversity problem. If you can't see this, or it doesn't bother you - or more crucially, if people calling it out DOES bother you - you need to check your privilege. 

It's a lousy situation when you can't advertise a game with a female lead because it "won't sell." When a game advertised with a hispanic man as a lead "won't sell." As always, I would invite you to look at your game shelf or your DVD shelf and count out how many of them cast their lead as anyone other than a straight white guy. Unless you have an exceptionally large and varied collection, I would imagine that you can count them on one hand. 

A video game forum is one of many places where people who care about equality can make a measurable impact. We have seen this here on the BSN. What's even better is that the Bioware devs are ostensibly interested in the same thing. They recognize that games should be more inclusive, they recognize that heroes can come in any shape or color. The fact that you can make your Shepard, your warden, or your Hawke be whoever you want them to be is incredible. They fact that they don't see that as a selling point is dismaying. But they have the right idea. And I will grant that they actually do have a wonderfully diverse society in Old Republic and Mass Effect. Seriously, they do great things. Thedas just needs to catch up. 

Fiction reflects reality. You can't remake "Medivel" and populate it like the African continent. How would you feel if someone popped up on a message board for a game set in fictional Africa and demanded you stick in 50% white people ? These things work both ways.

I do have an exceptionally large and varied collection.

Thedas is Thedas it is not Mass Effect or TOR. It has it's own culture and history. Sticking in a bunch of people who don't belong in a certain area just becase someone is politiking is not something that belongs in the game.

[whykikyouwhy]

 

BobSmith101 wrote...

While a mod only applies to an individual a redesign does not. If it bothers someone that much they can do what Sylvius did in reverse and make everyone black if they want. It won't make a lick of sense, but it's their fantasy. 

  
I never said that folks couldn't mod what they wanted to, or imagine Thedas (and its inhabitants) in the manner that they choose when they play. Again, you're moving things away from the point - which happens to be why people may feel that inclusion of different peoples (the shades and hues of such) is important, and why some folks perceive some mods as being less than favorable. No one here is claiming that people should or should not do certain things with their games.

  
The idea of colour blind casting is inherently nonsense anyway. If I made a film version of La Morte D'Arthur , I could not cast a black a guy as Arthur any more than I could cast a white guy as Shaka. 

  
Well, if you're the casting director, that's your call. But I would care more about the acting ability of the person vying for the role than I would how they look.

  
The local take out is called the Oriental, does not seem to bother the people who own it. Asia is a big place it's too non specific.

 
I was pointing out that the word has been used as a slur. If it doesn't bother some folks, fine. But it may bother others - so to make discourse more polite and respectful, perhaps we should steer away from that language. Merely a suggestion.

BobSmith101 wrote...

Fiction reflects reality. You can't remake "Medivel" and populate it like the African continent. How would you feel if someone popped up on a message board for a game set in fictional Africa and demanded you stick in 50% white people ? These things work both ways.

Thedas isn't medieval Europe. Thedas isn't any parallel to our own world. 

[mousestalker]

BobSmith101 wrote...
The idea of colour blind casting is inherently nonsense anyway. If I made a film version of La Morte D'Arthur , I could not cast a black a guy as Arthur any more than I could cast a white guy as Shaka.

Interesting idea. Of course that would put a damper on most productions of the Mikado, any Shakespeare outside of the pallid people zones and all Jane Austen derived works outside of Southeastern England.

[nightscrawl]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Now, in a fantasy world, you have one huge and problematic reason why people don't travel much: it's really, really dangerous.  In the real world, you have, what, bandits, barbarian hordes, occasional dangerous beasts (not really dangerous to groups of people, though), bad weather.  In Thedas, you have all of that PLUS:

1. Darkspawn
2.  Rogue magics
3.  Dragons
4. Demons
5.  Pissed off elves
6. Walking Trees
7. Flemeth
8. Werewolves
9. Ghasts
10. Flemeth
11. Wyverns
12. Strange altars that **** out arcane horrors
13. Walking Dead
14. Flemeth
15. And, of course, the risk of running into the PC and being liquidated because they find your voice "annoying"

It wouldn't be all that surprising if most people in Thedas don't travel much at all, and the only real road system was built during the old Imperium and not really repaired since then, because when you're working on the road surface you're not watching the nearby woods for any/all of the above.

Rofl... In DAA there were various incidents relating to the safety of the surrounding areas and how it related to travel. So, yeah I'm not surprised at all.

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

syllogi wrote...

Yech. Just admit that you don't find "ethnic" people attractive, instead of claiming that Isabela looks "wrong" with dark skin. She's a beautiful character, and skin color does not determine the shape of one's facial features.

But people of different ethnicities do have different facial features. Compare an Icelander to a Sicilian, for example..

Moreover, it's not just that Isabela was dark. Her skin had a muddy tone. which I've never liked. A smoother dark tone I may have accepted.

This was brought to my attention in some other thread where someone mentioned Isabela's skin looking gritty, and that somehow being appropriate for her character. That didn't sound quite right to me, so I went in game and looked.

Her skin, much like many of the darker models, is just the lighter skin with the color levels played around with, leading to things like freckles and other skin flaws being more noticeable, whereas on the light version it just looks more moderate. The skin in her face looks great, but she has a lot of skin showing as part of her "look" so the flawed skin elsewhere on her body is more obvious than a dark skinned Hawke who is mostly covered by various armors.

If you are going to have NPCs with darker skin, especially those with a lot of skin showing, there needs to be skin created specifically for those models.

That said, seeing a modded white Isabela would be very strange o.O.

[FKA_Servo]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Fiction reflects reality. You can't remake "Medivel" and populate it like the African continent. How would you feel if someone popped up on a message board for a game set in fictional Africa and demanded you stick in 50% white people ? These things work both ways.

I do have an exceptionally large and varied collection.

Thedas is Thedas it is not Mass Effect or TOR. It has it's own culture and history. Sticking in a bunch of people who don't belong in a certain area just becase someone is politiking is not something that belongs in the game.

And reality is far more diverse than popular culture would lead one to believe.

A game set in a fictionalized Africa likely wouldn't even be greenlit unless it had a 50% white cast and a white protagonist. That's a problem. You're ignoring context.

It's very clear that Thedas is not an AU medieval Europe, no matter the inspiration for it. But even if you do consider that important, there is an historical argument in favor of a more diverse representation than what we see. Especially in DA2, with Kirkwall. And honestly, they don't need a reason, as the OP holds.They could - and I would argue that they should - have made Thedas a more diverse place just because they could. But there are plenty of reasons supported by the lore and the setting which allow for this too, and nothing that would contradict it.

This isn't politiking. This is normalizing - something that games and films need desperately. Bioware has done it beautifully with inclusive romances - incredibly so, in DA2. They broke boundaries there. All I ask is that they keep up the good work, in this case.

Congratulations on your large and varied collection, by they way. You didn't address my concern about it though.

And now that I notice it...

BobSmith101 wrote...

We are talking about fictional worlds , made up stuff. It's not like a game set in the real world, nor does it need
to conform to some sort of real world ideal.

BobSmith101 wrote...

Fiction reflects reality. You can't remake "Medivel" and populate it like the African continent. How would you feel if someone popped up on a message board for a game set in fictional Africa and demanded you stick in 50% white people ? These things work both ways.

Make up your mind.

Modifié par TommyServo, 10 mai 2012 - 02:04 .

[LiquidGrape]

Whenever people claim that medieval Europe wasn't populated by people of colour, I think about the Moors. Then I sigh and look wistfully into the distance.

Modifié par LiquidGrape, 10 mai 2012 - 04:34 .

[AkiKishi]

TommyServo wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Fiction reflects reality. You can't remake "Medivel" and populate it like the African continent. How would you feel if someone popped up on a message board for a game set in fictional Africa and demanded you stick in 50% white people ? These things work both ways.

I do have an exceptionally large and varied collection.

Thedas is Thedas it is not Mass Effect or TOR. It has it's own culture and history. Sticking in a bunch of people who don't belong in a certain area just becase someone is politiking is not something that belongs in the game.

And reality is far more diverse than popular culture would lead one to believe.

A game set in a fictionalized Africa likely wouldn't even be greenlit unless it had a 50% white cast and a white protagonist. That's a problem. You're ignoring context.

It's very clear that Thedas is not an AU medieval Europe, no matter the inspiration for it. But even if you do consider that important, there is an historical argument in favor of a more diverse representation than what we see. Especially in DA2, with Kirkwall. And honestly, they don't need a reason, as the OP holds.They could - and I would argue that they should - have made Thedas a more diverse place just because they could. But there are plenty of reasons supported by the lore and the setting which allow for this too, and nothing that would contradict it.

This isn't politiking. This is normalizing - something that games and films need desperately. Bioware has done it beautifully with inclusive romances - incredibly so, in DA2. They broke boundaries there. All I ask is that they keep up the good work, in this case.

Congratulations on your large and varied collection, by they way. You didn't address my concern about it though.

And now that I notice it...

BobSmith101 wrote...

We are talking about fictional worlds , made up stuff. It's not like a game set in the real world, nor does it need
to conform to some sort of real world ideal.

BobSmith101 wrote...

Fiction reflects reality. You can't remake "Medivel" and populate it like the African continent. How would you feel if someone popped up on a message board for a game set in fictional Africa and demanded you stick in 50% white people ? These things work both ways.

Make up your mind.

Making up arbitary population and trying to  put it somewhere it does not belong because of some agenda you have. That is politiking. Come up with a decent explanation and I will listen. I won't listen to anything that just promotes an agenda.

Your concern is what? Go to Nigeria and look at media and it will refelct local tastes. Do you want their TV to have more white people ? 
Mexico ? Where are all the white folks on those Mexican soaps ? 

One statement refers to someone altering their own game to their own tastes and people finding it offensive. The other refers to someone trying to change an already established history and population mix of a canon gameworld. Oh course if you will take statements out of context that sort of thing is going to happen.

[Corker]

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

I totally agree. Just wanted to point out that just looking at medieval movies in Europe isn't what it was really like then as is depicted in (most of) them. And Thedas has people in all colours. I know I've seen them in the game.

Ding!


Chanter Devons in quaint little Lothering


Also in Lothering: Ser Bryant of the Templar Order


Lee Bloodrake, a Denerim ruffian


This guy, naturally.


Liselle is an Orlesian who sells perfumes in the Denerim Market.


The Mages Collective rep and his two identical brothers in Redcliffe, Lake Calenhad Docks, and Denerim


Senior Enchanter Torrin of the Circle Tower


In the remote Frostback Mountains, in a village isolated from the outside world since the death of Andraste, we have Father Kolgrim.


The Queen of the Eastern Sea, v. 1.0


Lord Eddelbrek, a nobleman of Amaranthine


Lady Liza Packton, also of Amaranthine

That's just the humans of DAO and DAA I could scare up.  Not counting the elves (including one carmel-skinned companion) and the dwarves.

These folks did not "wreck my immersion" or make me feel as if I were being force-fed politically-correct nonsense.  They were just there, and they seem *more* realistic than the spiders too large to stand, the lizards too big to fly, or the, um, magic.

It hardly seems that it would be scarring or game-destroying if there were more characters with non-pale complexions around.  Marketing may not be ready for entirely color-blind casting, but surely the diversity knob can be dialed up.

Modifié par Corker, 10 mai 2012 - 02:41 .

[FKA_Servo]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Making up arbitary population and trying to  put it somewhere it does not belong because of some agenda you have. That is politiking. Come up with a decent explanation and I will listen. I won't listen to anything that just promotes an agenda.

Not what we're talking about. This is about Thedas. Not Ferelden. Even if I don't really agree with it, I can accept that Ferelden, and native fereldens, may not be a particularly diverse group of people. There's no argument for a big trading port like Denerim.

What's really egregious is Kirkwall. This is the gateway to Tevinter. It's seen (possibly) millions of people, citizen and slave alike, pass through it and settle over the course of hundreds of years. We know that there are other people living elsewhere in the world. We know about the Rivaini firsthand, we know about others via the codex and history. When we see massive population centers, or when we see another part of the world beyond Ferelden, we should see these other people. There's your decent explanation.

BobSmith101 wrote...

Your concern is what? Go to Nigeria and look at media and it will refelct local tastes. Do you want their TV to have more white people ? Mexico ? Where are all the white folks on those Mexican soaps ? 

You're missing the point.

BobSmith101 wrote...

One statement refers to someone altering their own game to their own tastes and people finding it offensive.

A different conversation, and one in which I haven't really taken part. People can mod their own game however they
want. I think whitewashing Isabela indefensible, and says plenty about the person doing it, but beyond that, I'm staying
out it.

BobSmith101 wrote...

The other refers to someone trying to change an already established history and population mix of a canon gameworld. Oh course if you will take statements out of context that sort of thing is going to happen.

The established history and canon in Thedas suggests that this is already the case. At the very least, nothing we have seen and nothing we know contradict it in any way whatsoever. That the finished product doesn't reflect this is sad, but not unexpected.

At it's root, what issue can you possibly have with making a gameworld more racially diverse? More racially inclusive? Does it hurt your immersion, somehow? Because I honestly and truly can't come up with any reasonable argument against this.

The "agenda" here, if you have to call it that, is that popular media, games and film specifically, are overwhelmingly not a very welcoming place for people that fall outside of the white heteronormative standard - that's to say, most people. I seek to change that. I think we're better than this. I know Bioware can be better than this.You either agree with that, or you don't, I suppose.

Modifié par TommyServo, 10 mai 2012 - 03:02 .

[David Gaider]

Two things to bring up here:

1) As pointed out above, there have been characters of color throughout both games.

2) If there's not many, that's largely because the only nation in Thedas where people have darker skin is Rivain-- which is neither overly populous nor possessed of people that are especially well-traveled. There are without a doubt humans of different skin colors in other lands, but these are places that people in Thedas are only vaguely aware of so there's little contact. Perhaps one believes we shouldn't have a fantasy setting that is largely caucasian, but the world is already created and thus short of ret-conning entire cultures to look differently than they've already been presented we need to follow the rules as we've established them.

Neither of these things mean there can't and shouldn't be more characters of color. We just need to do it in a way that makes sense for the setting-- so it depends on where you go, as opposed to making sure every crowd of people you encounter is split up into pre-set percentages of skin color no matter where you are. Nobody's asking for that, however, and it's completely fair to ask for more visible representation of groups that already exist in the setting, and certainly something for us developers to keep in mind (without, I hope, resorting to tokenism -- which is also a bad approach). And I'd say that, yes, we are committed to doing just that.

Modifié par David Gaider, 10 mai 2012 - 02:55 .

[AkiKishi]

David Gaider wrote...

Two things to bring up here:

1) As pointed out above, there have been characters of color throughout both games.

2) If there's not many, that's largely because the only nation in Thedas where people have darker skin is Rivain-- which is neither overly populous nor possessed of people that are especially well-traveled. There are without a doubt humans of different skin colors in other lands, but these are places that people in Thedas are only vaguely aware of so there's little contact. Perhaps one believes we shouldn't have a fantasy setting that is largely caucasian, but the world is already created and thus short of ret-conning entire cultures to look differently than they've already been presented we need to follow the rules as we've established them.

Neither of these things mean there can't and shouldn't be more characters of color. We just need to do it in a way that makes sense for the setting-- so it depends on where you go, as opposed to making sure every crowd of people you encounter is split up into pre-set percentages of skin color no matter where you are. Nobody's asking for that, however, and it's completely fair to ask for more visible representation of groups that already exist in the setting, and certainly something for us developers to keep in mind (without, I hope, resorting to tokenism -- which is also a bad approach). And I'd say that, yes, we are committed to doing just that.

Colour me happy.

[AkiKishi]

[quote]TommyServo wrote...

Not what we're talking about. This is about Thedas. Not Ferelden. Even if I don't really agree with it, I can accept that Ferelden, and native fereldens, may not be a particularly diverse group of people. There's no argument for a big trading port like Denerim.

What's really egregious is Kirkwall. This is the gateway to Tevinter. It's seen (possibly) millions of people, citizen and slave alike, pass through it and settle over the course of hundreds of years. We know that there are other people living elsewhere in the world. We know about the Rivaini firsthand, we know about others via the codex and history. When we see massive population centers, or when we see another part of the world beyond Ferelden, we should see these other people. There's your decent explanation.

[quote]

You're missing the point.

[/quote]

[quote]

A different conversation, and one in which I haven't really taken part. People can mod their own game however they
want. I think whitewashing Isabela indefensible, and says plenty about the person doing it, but beyond that, I'm staying
out it.

[/quote]

[quote]

The established history and canon in Thedas suggests that this is already the case. At the very least, nothing we have seen and nothing we know contradict it in any way whatsoever. That the finished product doesn't reflect this is sad, but not unexpected.

At it's root, what issue can you possibly have with making a gameworld more racially diverse? More racially inclusive? Does it hurt your immersion, somehow? Because I honestly and truly can't come up with any reasonable argument against this.

The "agenda" here, if you have to call it that, is that popular media, games and film specifically, are overwhelmingly not a very welcoming place for people that fall outside of the white heteronormative standard - that's to say, most people. I seek to change that. I think we're better than this. I know Bioware can be better than this.You either agree with that, or you don't, I suppose.

[/quote]

They want to set the game there, fine by me. I'll be equally annoyed if there are too many white people around if that is the case.

I'm putting your point in the context of another cultures media. If you belive everything should be equal, then they should include white people.

If someone finds white Isabella more attractive than tanned Isabella that's all there is to it. Just like he found unscarred and untatooed Jack more attractive than her official version. One has no more meaning than other.

That's fine and all but that won't alter my view and I still expect integrity from my game worlds.

[Yggdrasil]

David Gaider wrote...

Two things to bring up here:

1) As pointed out above, there have been characters of color throughout both games.

2) If there's not many, that's largely because the only nation in Thedas where people have darker skin is Rivain-- which is neither overly populous nor possessed of people that are especially well-traveled. There are without a doubt humans of different skin colors in other lands, but these are places that people in Thedas are only vaguely aware of so there's little contact. Perhaps one believes we shouldn't have a fantasy setting that is largely caucasian, but the world is already created and thus short of ret-conning entire cultures to look differently than they've already been presented we need to follow the rules as we've established them.

Neither of these things mean there can't and shouldn't be more characters of color. We just need to do it in a way that makes sense for the setting-- so it depends on where you go, as opposed to making sure every crowd of people you encounter is split up into pre-set percentages of skin color no matter where you are. Nobody's asking for that, however, and it's completely fair to ask for more visible representation of groups that already exist in the setting, and certainly something for us developers to keep in mind (without, I hope, resorting to tokenism -- which is also a bad approach). And I'd say that, yes, we are committed to doing just that.

Mr. Gaider, I am a huge fan of yours, have read all of your books and think you do a great job, but with all due respect:

1) Almost all of the people of color you see in the games are swarthy or Mediterranean.  An African-American woman would not see herself in Isabella, just because the character doesn't have Northern European coloring.  I also don't know of any Asian characters in the games.

2) If the game already has people of color as you say, then why would including more of them be problematic?  You already ret-conned the way dwaves, elves and qunari looked between DA:O and DA2, so how would ret-conning a multi-ethnic Thedas threaten the integrity of the world you've created?  I doubt many players would even notice as most of us are used to seeing other ethnicities in our daily lives.

I saw your response to the straight gamer who complained about same-sex romances as a passionate defense of inclusiveness and the rights of the under-represented, but I frankly feel that your response to my suggestion validates the status quo and those who feel inclusiveness would ruin their enjoyment of the games.  Now I'm wondering if I can consider myself a fan of the games I loved so much.

[Wulfram]

Is there a specific origin for the darker skinned elves that we occasionally see?

[AkiKishi]

MichaelStJohn90068 wrote...

1) Almost all of the people of color you see in the games are swarthy or Mediterranean.  An African-American woman would not see herself in Isabella, just because the character doesn't have Northern European coloring.  I also don't know of any Asian characters in the games.

2) If the game already has people of color as you say, then why would including more of them be problematic?  You already ret-conned the way dwaves, elves and qunari looked between DA:O and DA2, so how would ret-conning a multi-ethnic Thedas threaten the integrity of the world you've created?  I doubt many players would even notice as most of us are used to seeing other ethnicities in our daily lives.

I saw your response to the straight gamer who complained about same-sex romances as a passionate defense of inclusiveness and the rights of the under-represented, but I frankly feel that your response to my suggestion validates the status quo and those who feel inclusiveness would ruin their enjoyment of the games.  Now I'm wondering if I can consider myself a fan of the games I loved so much.

1)So ? I don't see myself in any of the white guys in the game either. Because there is no equivelent of Asia in the known world.
 
2)Not really what he said. Including them in a way that makes sense is important to the integrity of the game world. Outside of Sten you had never seen a Quanari anyway. Elves were just made to look more wretched and less Tolkien esque more or an art style thing. It's different because Thedas is established.

3) It's Thedas not your daily life.It's not a political statement it's a game. Stop trying to turn it into some sort of agenda.

[FKA_Servo]

MichaelStJohn90068 wrote...


2) If the game already has people of color as you say, then why would including more of them be problematic?  You already ret-conned the way dwaves, elves and qunari looked between DA:O and DA2, so how would ret-conning a multi-ethnic Thedas threaten the integrity of the world you've created?  I doubt many players would even notice as most of us are used to seeing other ethnicities in our daily lives.

Strictly speaking, I don't know if any of those things were retcons as opposed to a change of aesthetics. Additionally, I don't actually see how anything you propose here would be considered a retcon as opposed to an expansion. Now I find myself curious, though, as to how you can create a native Thedan PC of any race (true), if peoples analogous to african or asian and others don't exist in Thedas. I always assumed (and I feel that I had plenty of space to assume this) that their roots were simply elsewhere than Ferelden.

David,

Thank you for stopping by! It might be my ignorance of the lore, but this is the first I've heard it suggested that Rivain is the only nation in Thedas with persons of color. I know this is from the source, but considering how little of the world we've seen thus far, doesn't that seriously limit your options? What about the people on Seheron and Par Vollen? It's under Qunari control, but I can't imagine that all those Qunari are Kossith. What about the Donarks?

Modifié par TommyServo, 10 mai 2012 - 04:13 .

[FKA_Servo]

BobSmith101 wrote...

3) It's Thedas not your daily life.It's not a political statement it's a game. Stop trying to turn it into some sort of agenda.

I think Bioware has set the precedent here, though. Their inclusion of same-sex romances, as well as their (and EA's!) admirable public support of that content in the face of public criticism for it, makes a statement whether they intend to or not. I think this issue is no less important than that issue, for much the same reason.

[wsandista]

TommyServo wrote...


Strictly speaking, I don't know if any of those things were retcons as opposed to a change of aesthetics. Additionally, I don't actually see how anything you propose here would be considered a retcon as opposed to an expansion. Now I find myself curious, though, as to how you can create a native Thedan PC of any race (true), if peoples analogous to african or asian and others don't exist in Thedas. I always assumed (and I feel that I had plenty of space to assume this) that their roots were simply elsewhere than Ferelden.

David,

Thank you for stopping by! It might be my ignorance of the lore, but this is the first I've heard it suggested that Rivain is the only nation in Thedas with persons of color. I know this is from the source, but considering how little of the world we've seen thus far, doesn't that seriously limit your options? What about the people on Seheron and Par Vollen? What about the Donarks?

Thedas is a continent, not the world.

[FKA_Servo]

wsandista wrote...


Thedas is a continent, not the world.

I'm aware of that, thank you. My comment was in response to David's saying that other races on other continents would have little contact with Thedas, and informed by my opinion that the environment of Thedas is varied enough to produce a racially diverse human population.

Modifié par TommyServo, 10 mai 2012 - 04:19 .