217 réponses à ce sujet

[Tigerman123]

I really don't see why there shouldn't be people of different ethnicities; which country is closer to Italy, Tunisia or Britain? Europe was never hermetically sealed away from the world and in so far as that was the case it was due to religious differences, which is pretty much how it came about as a concept or identity in the first place

[wsandista]

MichaelStJohn90068 wrote...

I saw your response to the straight gamer who complained about same-sex romances as a passionate defense of inclusiveness and the rights of the under-represented, but I frankly feel that your response to my suggestion validates the status quo and those who feel inclusiveness would ruin their enjoyment of the games.  Now I'm wondering if I can consider myself a fan of the games I loved so much.

The players (like me) who have a problem with the gameplay direction have a much more credible argument, seeing as their problems actually did happen and aren't being imagined. Just because a group isn't included(somehow I doubt DG and the DA writers try to make token characters for every ethnicity) doesn't mean that said group is being ignored by the writers because they don't want other races besides caucasian.

[FKA_Servo]

wsandista wrote...

The players (like me) who have a problem with the gameplay direction have a much more credible argument, seeing as their problems actually did happen and aren't being imagined. Just because a group isn't included(somehow I doubt DG and the DA writers try to make token characters for every ethnicity) doesn't mean that said group is being ignored by the writers because they don't want other races besides caucasian.

It's a good thing all of our opinions here are equally valid, then.

[Sylvius the Mad]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

When we talk about changing the appearance of the companions - making Isabela paler, making Aveline more model-esque, making Merrill look less like an elf, for example - it's something that sparks a reaction because it would be altering how those characters were envisioned and written. Isabela, to my knowledge, was always intended to be a dark-skinned woman from Rivain - it's part of her overall stats, part of who she is. Make her lighter in skin tone or change her bone structure, and essentially you're chipping away at something inherent to her overall character.

I'm replacing one characteristic with another, which changes her overall character.  To suggest that she's being diminished by it is a value judgment.

Not to say that it is wrong on the surface, but it's quite easy to see and understand how that can be viewed as being thinly veiled racism.

No, it isn't easy to understand.  That perception lacks foundation.  The logic isn't there.

Because when we start to discuss matters of color and appearance, and how they relate to race and ethnicity (even for fictitious characters), we get into emotional territory

Not when I do it.

we touch upon something that has had negative connotations, has had a history etched with pain due to folks being marginalized, oppressed, and reduced to a label or a name or an array of stereotypes. Where shades and hues should simply be beautiful facets of the whole human being, we have real world history in which the heated and contentious division between peoples is often marked by how different they look from one another.

History is a wondrous thing.  I don't see why we couldn't investigate some of those aspects of history in games - not that we're doing that here, but simply because something offends people is no reason to avoid the subject.

During the long development of the original Dragon Age (before they renamed it Origins), there was some discussion of whether, given that slavery existed in their world, the PC would be able to own slaves.  I questioned why, given that we're dealing with a world with obviously different physical rules from ours, it couldn't have different moral rules, as well.

They didn't seem to think the nature of morality was an area worth investigating in that way.

Ultimately, mods exist for a variety of reasons - one such reason being so that folks can accentuate the game in a manner that may better allow for their own immersion. But often, the reasons for why a player may want a paler version of an NPC can ring hollow to those who feel that the companions should be left as the beautiful creations that they are - so very human in their dreams, emotions, and flaws, and varied in their appearance - from skin tone, to hair color, to body size/frame. Which isn't to say those the reasons for modding in that manner always have that negative undertone - but...this will remain a matter that does resonate emotionally, and so we should tread carefully in recognition of that.

I am indifferent to their indignation.

Because in the long run, a game where a variety of peoples are shown, in creed, ethnicity, identity, etc, makes for a beautiful and vast world. And lots of folks hope that such a world isn't diminished in any way.

Theirs isn't.  But once I get my hands of the game, it's mine to do with as I please.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 10 mai 2012 - 04:47 .

[AkiKishi]

TommyServo wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

3) It's Thedas not your daily life.It's not a political statement it's a game. Stop trying to turn it into some sort of agenda.

I think Bioware has set the precedent here, though. Their inclusion of same-sex romances, as well as their (and EA's!) admirable public support of that content in the face of public criticism for it, makes a statement whether they intend to or not. I think this issue is no less important than that issue, for much the same reason.

Same sex romances don't really have any impact on the integrity of the world. Making everyone bi does, but that's a different topic.

[Tirigon]

I dont really care which color the people in the game have.

Hell, for all I care they could have blue alien wenches and greenskins, exclusively.


I made my avatar white not because of racist reasons, after all, but because TO MY PERSONAL TASTE it looks better, just like I find blond or red hair prettier than black or auburn....

[Sylvius the Mad]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Same sex romances don't really have any impact on the integrity of the world. Making everyone bi does, but that's a different topic.

Unless you see the characters' other partners, there's no reason to view them as bi.  Each NPC's sexualty is simply different from one playthrough to the next depending on the PC's gender.

[FKA_Servo]

I would argue that especially here, increasing diversity strengthens the integrity and consistency of the world.

[AkiKishi]

TommyServo wrote...

I would argue that especially here, increasing diversity strengthens the integrity and consistency of the world.

How exactly ? There is no mass transit in Thedas. Having people pop up just to be there does nothing for the integrity of the world.

It's already been made clear you have Rivians and that they don't travel and the area is not very populated.

[David Gaider]

MichaelStJohn90068 wrote...
1) Almost all of the people of color you see in the games are swarthy or Mediterranean.  An African-American woman would not see herself in Isabella, just because the character doesn't have Northern European coloring.  I also don't know of any Asian characters in the games.

We haven't had very dark skin tones because the Eclipse engine doesn't render them well. Once you try anything much darker than Isabela, the skin renders as very blotchy and unpleasant-looking. Ideally this is something we can fix.

As for Asian characters, we don't have them because they're not present as a culture in Thedas. My thought is that there are cultures outside of Thedas with intermittent contact, hence their presence is possible in limited circumstances, but it's not something you'll see much of.

So don't take my comment of "people of color already exist" to mean they're numerous or cover a very broad spectrum. Neither of those things are true. It's also not true, however, to say that no characters of color exist.

2) If the game already has people of color as you say, then why would including more of them be problematic?  You already ret-conned the way dwaves, elves and qunari looked between DA:O and DA2, so how would ret-conning a multi-ethnic Thedas threaten the integrity of the world you've created?  I doubt many players would even notice as most of us are used to seeing other ethnicities in our daily lives.

I already said that the cultures are established, and that other than a ret-con we have to work within the framework we started with. Whether we wish to do a ret-con is a different question, and I'd only be wary of the reasons for doing so. The setting was never intended to be a patchwork representation of ethnicities, but an analogue to medieval Europe. Yes, some people say they're very tired of euro-centric fantasy settings but that's what it is.

I saw your response to the straight gamer who complained about same-sex romances as a passionate defense of inclusiveness and the rights of the under-represented, but I frankly feel that your response to my suggestion validates the status quo and those who feel inclusiveness would ruin their enjoyment of the games.  Now I'm wondering if I can consider myself a fan of the games I loved so much.

I said that we intend to work on it, and include as much as makes sense in our current framework. If any response short of ret-conning the setting is seen as being insensitive... then I don't really know what to say. It really seems like I can't give a response that you would find positive enough, so I apologize and will simply back off.

[Tirigon]

On a side note: Would including colored people truly be a sign of inclusiveness and tolerance?

To me, shoving them into a world based on medieval Europe would look more like hidden racism.

Like "Oh my god these poor blacks we need to have some black guys in our game so they dont feel inferior." Which is of course very stupid and racist, because people should not be judged by the color of their skin.


I think we shouldnt care for people's skin color because it really doesnt matter.

And that also means, not including colored characters if the game world is based on medieval Europe, which happens to not have been as multicultural as the US or modern Europe.


Of course one might argue that the game shouldnt be set in such a place then. Personally, I wouldnt mind. For all I care BioWare could make a game world based on Africa, and consequently have next to no whites.....

But as Gaider above me set: that is not the direction they chose, and that's that.

Modifié par Tirigon, 10 mai 2012 - 05:45 .

[FKA_Servo]

BobSmith101 wrote...

TommyServo wrote...

I would argue that especially here, increasing diversity strengthens the integrity and consistency of the world.

How exactly ? There is no mass transit in Thedas. Having people pop up just to be there does nothing for the integrity of the world.

It's already been made clear you have Rivians and that they don't travel and the area is not very populated.

More specifically, I have been arguing this. My reasons are given earlier in this thread, and in far more detail in the "white protagonist" thread from a few weeks back.

That Rivain is sparsely populated and it's people not well-traveled is something that has come to my attention since I made those arguments, and I asked David to elaborate on it. While I can't really argue with what he's saying, I can point out that it's not something that has to be set in stone. We haven't actually seen Rivain, or anywhere other than Ferelden and one tiny spot in the Free Marches.

I obviously think that Kirwkall was a missed opportunity, but that doesn't mean anything going forward. Unless they've revealed the population composition of each nation in Thedas to us somewhere, I see no reason why future games can't address this in a realistic and appropriate way.

[mousestalker]

What's really shocking about the DA franchise is the appalling lack of playable halla characters. They aren't even present as npc's in DA2.

[AkiKishi]

TommyServo wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

TommyServo wrote...

I would argue that especially here, increasing diversity strengthens the integrity and consistency of the world.

How exactly ? There is no mass transit in Thedas. Having people pop up just to be there does nothing for the integrity of the world.

It's already been made clear you have Rivians and that they don't travel and the area is not very populated.

More specifically, I have been arguing this. My reasons are given earlier in this thread, and in far more detail in the "white protagonist" thread from a few weeks back.

That Rivain is sparsely populated and it's people not well-traveled is something that has come to my attention since I made those arguments, and I asked David to elaborate on it. While I can't really argue with what he's saying, I can point out that it's not something that has to be set in stone. We haven't actually seen Rivain, or anywhere other than Ferelden and one tiny spot in the Free Marches.

I obviously think that Kirwkall was a missed opportunity, but that doesn't mean anything going forward. Unless they've revealed the population composition of each nation in Thedas to us somewhere, I see no reason why future games can't address this in a realistic and appropriate way.

See his above post about the eclipse engine not doing well with dark tones. Tells you everything you need to know.

[FKA_Servo]

BobSmith101 wrote...

See his above post about the eclipse engine not doing well with dark tones. Tells you everything you need to know.

See the same post where he says it's something that they will try to fix. C'mon, man.

Obviously we can't change the past. DAO and DA2 are done. All we can do is point out where we think they took a wrong step. We're talking about the future, more than anything else.

[AkiKishi]

TommyServo wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

See his above post about the eclipse engine not doing well with dark tones. Tells you everything you need to know.

See the same post where he says it's something that they will try to fix. C'mon, man.

Obviously we can't change the past. DAO and DA2 are done. All we can do is point out where we think they took a wrong step. We're talking about the future, more than anything else.

There are many more important things to do than fix the eclipse engine to render a race of people that don't often appear outside of a geographical area, unless the game visits it.

[FKA_Servo]

Tirigon wrote...

On a side note: Would including colored people truly be a sign of inclusiveness and tolerance?

To me, shoving them into a world based on medieval Europe would look more like hidden racism.

 

Not that this matters, because whatever it's basis, Thedas is not an AU medieval Europe, but... if you want to consider this through the lens of history, and what the people of an actual city like, say, Rome, looked a thousand years ago, you should take a history course.

Tirigon wrote...

Like "Oh my god these poor blacks we need to have some black guys in our game so they dont feel inferior." Which is of course very stupid and racist, because people should not be judged by the color of their skin.

I think we shouldnt care for people's skin color because it really doesnt matter.

 

You're missing the point. And you're ignoring context, like our buddy Bob.

"Skin color doesn't matter, so it's fine that everyone's white all the time" isn't really a solution to what I or the OP are talking about. It's a pervasive, underlying norm that... sucks. Maybe not everyone who's affected by this are bothered by it. A lot of people are. Sentiments like that betray your privilege. I'm not saying it's an overtly racist attitude - but there is an undeniable undercurrent to that.

Tirigon wrote...

And that also means, not including colored characters if the game world is based on medieval Europe, which happens to not have been as multicultural as the US or modern Europe.

Of course one might argue that the game shouldnt be set in such a place then. Personally, I wouldnt mind. For all I care BioWare could make a game world based on Africa, and consequently have next to no whites.....

But as Gaider above me set: that is not the direction they chose, and that's that.

 

Again... take a history course. Or read the entire thread to familiarize yourself with what exactly we're discussing.

Modifié par TommyServo, 10 mai 2012 - 06:07 .

[FKA_Servo]

BobSmith101 wrote...

There are many more important things to do than fix the eclipse engine to render a race of people that don't often appear outside of a geographical area, unless the game visits it.

And again, it all comes down to our very different priorities. I think there are some lackluster game systems. I don't think it's nearly as broken as you and others do. I would prioritize this above redesigning the combat, for example. In fact, I would prioritize nearly everything companion, storyline, and environment related above the game systems, because I think the gameplay in DA2 is more or less great. What's important to me is the story, the characters, and their possibilites.

I will continue to advocate for the things I think are important, and you will continue to do the same, and around we go.

[Yggdrasil]

Mr. Gaider, thank you for your thoughtful response. I appreciate your taking the time. My last comment came off somewhat more melodramatic than I intended.

I think cultural sensibilities are to the point where an increase in diversity without an in-game explanation would be unremarkable and go largely unnoticed, so I will have to respectfully disagree with you on that point.

You and your team created this world, and you have every artistic right to develop it however you wish. If you go back to my original posting, you will see that nothing I was saying was meant to be a criticism of Bioware for anything it had done. I was humbly asking you to consider expanding the inclusiveness that meant so much to me as a gamer.

[LiquidGrape]

Tirigon wrote...

On a side note: Would including colored people truly be a sign of inclusiveness and tolerance?

You're asking if being more inclusive would be a sign of inclusiveness and tolerance.
Just an observation.

Also, a definite sign of inclusiveness and tolerance would be not to use colonial era epithets for people of colour.

P.S
And again, why are people so willfully ignoring the existence of the Moors in European history? They ruled and inhabited the Iberian peninsula for nearly a millennium.
D.S

P.P.S
It has come to my attention that the Moors have in fact been mentioned at a much earlier stage in the thread.
Which, if anything, makes me wonder even more why Eurocentric is used as though it was synonymous with White.
D.D.S

Modifié par LiquidGrape, 10 mai 2012 - 06:28 .

[FKA_Servo]

LiquidGrape wrote...

You're asking if being more inclusive would be a sign of inclusiveness and tolerance.
Just an observation.

Also, a definite sign of inclusiveness and tolerance would be not to use colonial era epithets for people of colour.

P.S
And again, why are people so willfully ignoring the existence of the Moors in European history? They ruled and inhabited the Iberian peninsula for nearly a millenium.
D.S

I've mentioned this, and I'm not the only one who has. It's one of the reasons I suggest that they take a history course or otherwise familiarize themselves with what they're talking about.

I think in many cases, the strength of one's opinions on a given topic are inversely proportional to their understanding of said topic. It's a human quirk.

Modifié par TommyServo, 10 mai 2012 - 06:22 .

[mousestalker]

As a side note of little or no relevance, the Roman Empire ruled almost all the good bits of Europe, North Africa, and parts of Asia.

The Romans had a habit of moving soldiers from one end of the Empire to another. And of course, everyone came to Rome. They also imported slaves in great numbers from Africa, Asia and Northern Europe.

Much like the Tevinters did in dragon ages past.

[Sutekh]

LiquidGrape wrote...

It has come to my attention that the Moors have in fact been mentioned at a much earlier stage in the thread.
Which, if anything, makes me wonder even more why Eurocentric is used as though it was synonymous with White.

I think it's because people reduce Europe to North-West Europe (mainly British Isles, Germany and Scandinavia), especially when fantasy is involved. Personally, I blame Tolkien and the Irish  

[upsettingshorts]

Tirigon thinks that because women are sexualized in games, female gamers are getting better treatment than males. That's an even easier problem to wrap one's head around and he's totally off base about that, too.

He's... got a long way to go before he can understand this stuff.

I'm all for inclusion personally, however, I wouldn't want POC to simply "appear." If Thedas is going to have say, black or Asian-looking people in their universe, I want to know where on the map they come from. That means expanding the geography of Thedas, introducing a new culture and fleshing out that culture (at least to some basic standards similar to areas of Thedas we have not personally visited, such as the Anderfels).

But that's my standard, because while I'd play a POC character without hesitation (more than half of my TOR characters were nonwhite, though primarily because I don't play aliens and yet wanted variety) if those conditions were met, it bugs me on a metagaming level to play a character who - based on the current setting - would have everyone they ran into asking them why they look so different and where the hell they come from. That they don't sort of (deep breath) breaks my immersions.

Finally with regards to history, yeah, read a book. Preferably several.

[Wulfram]

Sutekh wrote...

I think it's because people reduce Europe to North-West Europe (mainly British Isles, Germany and Scandinavia), especially when fantasy is involved. Personally, I blame Tolkien and the Irish  

Well, for much of history North-West Europe is a far more relevant geographical area.  The mediterranean was a much more real thing than Europe.

Except in as much as Europe was Christendom, which is a group that Al-Andalus obviously wasn't part of.