217 réponses à ce sujet

[upsettingshorts]

Wulfram wrote...

Well, for much of history North-West Europe is a far more relevant geographical area.  The mediterranean was a much more real thing than Europe.

Except in as much as Europe was Christendom, which is a group that Al-Andalus obviously wasn't part of.

Wat

[Wulfram]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Wat

I meant compared to "Europe".  The continent was too fractured for the concept to have much relevance.

I mean, does it make sense to stick 10th century Estonia and Byzantium in the same category?

Modifié par Wulfram, 10 mai 2012 - 07:01 .

[AkiKishi]

LiquidGrape wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

On a side note: Would including colored people truly be a sign of inclusiveness and tolerance?

You're asking if being more inclusive would be a sign of inclusiveness and tolerance.
Just an observation.

Also, a definite sign of inclusiveness and tolerance would be not to use colonial era epithets for people of colour.

P.S
And again, why are people so willfully ignoring the existence of the Moors in European history? They ruled and inhabited the Iberian peninsula for nearly a millennium.
D.S

P.P.S
It has come to my attention that the Moors have in fact been mentioned at a much earlier stage in the thread.
Which, if anything, makes me wonder even more why Eurocentric is used as though it was synonymous with White.
D.D.S

Moors are invaders. Rivans are not really analogs of the Moors nor could they be at this point as written.

[FKA_Servo]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Moors are invaders. Rivans are not really analogs of the Moors nor could they be at this point as written.

But the Qunari could be. As well as any humans who may have come with them. We don't know if any did, but we don't know if any didn't. There were certainly people living on Par Vollen who were assimilated by the Qunari.

Or we don't even need to consider that, because while Thedas may be inspired by medieval Europe, it's not medieval Europe.

Just as an example, there's no reason why people hailing from the Anderfels couldn't be asian. We've never been there. Anders isn't, but he could be a transplant, much like Hawke is in Ferelden. All we have for that is David Gaider's say-so - which holds weight, of course. But this could change, and changing this wouldn't compromise the "integrity" of the story or setting or anything.

Edit for clarification.

Modifié par TommyServo, 10 mai 2012 - 07:13 .

[AkiKishi]

TommyServo wrote...
And again, it all comes down to our very different priorities. I think there are some lackluster game systems. I don't think it's nearly as broken as you and others do. I would prioritize this above redesigning the combat, for example. In fact, I would prioritize nearly everything companion, storyline, and environment related above the game systems, because I think the gameplay in DA2 is more or less great. What's important to me is the story, the characters, and their possibilites.

I will continue to advocate for the things I think are important, and you will continue to do the same, and around we go.

It's already written, Dave said what the Rivan people were and it's established in other sources too. While I have an inkling that originally the flaw in the eclipse engine may have been somewhat responsible for that, whats done is done.
Thedas is established it should not change unless it's by a method that makes sense in the game world.

[FKA_Servo]

BobSmith101 wrote...

It's already written, Dave said what the Rivan people were and it's established in other sources too. While I have an inkling that originally the flaw in the eclipse engine may have been somewhat responsible for that, whats done is done.
Thedas is established it should not change unless it's by a method that makes sense in the game world.

What other sources?

I'm not on the attack here. I'm curious because as I said earlier, David's assertion was news to me.

[Vlad_The_Impaler]

One thing that I thought was cool was that when I made a black character in DA 2, the family members also appeared with darker skin tones. Now, contextually, that DOES make sense. As for ethnic people showing up in various places in any of the BioWare games, I'm fine with it and I like it. For me, it does not need to be because they should logically be in a certain locale b/c of trade routes, accessibility to ports, other lands, etc. Logic really has to go out the door when you're already in a fantasy setting. Just let them be in the game and live their happy polygonal lives. If everybody in the game were white, I would probably wish there were at least a few people of color b/c I'm accustomed to it now. Back when I was little, I wouldn't have noticed b/c there were hardly any black characters in games anyways. Not the games I played, at least.

[upsettingshorts]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Moors are invaders. Rivans are not really analogs of the Moors nor could they be at this point as written.

Also invaders:

Persians
Greeks 
Romans
Huns
Visigoths
Ostrogoths
Vikings 
Normans 
...the list goes on.

The Moors (and later the Turks) were very much part of Europe for centuries, if not millennia.  Stating that because the Moors came originally from somewhere else first invalidates them as an example doesn't stand up to scrutiny, because it could apply to nearly everyone else too.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 10 mai 2012 - 07:21 .

[Sejborg]

Not even the darkspawn get to be dark-skinned anymore. 

White is the new black in Thedas it seems. 

[Xewaka]

BobSmith101 wrote...
Moors are invaders. Rivans are not really analogs of the Moors nor could they be at this point as written.

Moors are no more invaders than the Romans, the Goths, the Celts, the English, or the French. Moors lived for more than five centuries in Spain. At that point, they're hardly "invaders" anymore.

[GhostKiwi]

Yes, in medieval Europe the Moors were invaders, but I'm not sure what that has to do with anything? They were still in Medieval Europe so the idea that Europe was some kind of White Supremacist dreamland before the 18th century is still absurd, and not an excuse not to have POC in DA. Remember, there were also no dragons or darkspawn in Medieval Europe, but I don't see anyone complaining about that.

Maybe some of you don't like how advanced the Moors were in comparison to the "white" ethnic groups like the Norse?

[AkiKishi]

TommyServo wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Moors are invaders. Rivans are not really analogs of the Moors nor could they be at this point as written.

But the Qunari could be. As well as any humans who may have come with them. We don't know if any did, but we don't know if any didn't. There were certainly people living on Par Vollen who were assimilated by the Qunari.

Or we don't even need to consider that, because while Thedas may be inspired by medieval Europe, it's not medieval Europe.

Just as an example, there's no reason why people hailing from the Anderfels couldn't be asian. We've never been there. Anders isn't, but he could be a transplant, much like Hawke is in Ferelden. All we have for that is David Gaider's say-so - which holds weight, of course. But this could change, and changing this wouldn't compromise the "integrity" of the story or setting or anything.

Edit for clarification.

The Qunari are the Moors, sort of. Not sure what that has to do with anything though.

Dragon Age goes far beyond the games now, books, a PnP roleplaying system. Think there is even an atlas floating around out there somewhere.

Changing it without a very good reason would do just that. Your reasons are wholly political and have nothing to do with the game.

[FKA_Servo]

GhostKiwi wrote...

Maybe some of you don't like how advanced the Moors were in comparison to the "white" ethnic groups like the Norse?

I think this is a detour best left unexplored for the purposes of this thread.

Otherwise, I like the cut of your jib.

[upsettingshorts]

I'd say the Qunari are the Seljuk/Ottoman Turks, if we're going to split hairs. They're mostly taking a bite out of the old Eastern Roman Empire aka the Tevinter Imperium.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 10 mai 2012 - 07:26 .

[AkiKishi]

Xewaka wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...
Moors are invaders. Rivans are not really analogs of the Moors nor could they be at this point as written.

Moors are no more invaders than the Romans, the Goths, the Celts, the English, or the French. Moors lived for more than five centuries in Spain. At that point, they're hardly "invaders" anymore.

But they were originally and there is no analog to them in Dragon Age besides the Quanari.

You have not had an analog of the Moors living in Feraldan or Orlais for five centuries, so unless you go somewhere new, it's nonsense if they suddenly exist in DA3.

[Sylvius the Mad]

TommyServo wrote...

And again, it all comes down to our very different priorities. I think there are some lackluster game systems. I don't think it's nearly as broken as you and others do. I would prioritize this above redesigning the combat, for example. In fact, I would prioritize nearly everything companion, storyline, and environment related above the game systems, because I think the gameplay in DA2 is more or less great.

Whereas, I think DA2's gameplay was pretty poor, so I'd rank it as a priority just below fixing the paraphrase system.

[FKA_Servo]

BobSmith101 wrote...

The Qunari are the Moors, sort of. Not sure what that has to do with anything though.

They could conceivably bring with them people of different races from far beyond Thedas. We know that the Qunari invaded - we don't know that they were exclusively kossith. We also don't know what the people on Par Vollen looked like.

BobSmith101 wrote...

Dragon Age goes far beyond the games now, books, a PnP roleplaying system. Think there is even an atlas floating around out there somewhere.

Changing it without a very good reason would do just that. Your reasons are wholly political and have nothing to do with the game.

I want to know where specifically this is stated, so I can go look at it myself. I am admittedly unfamiliar with the lore and setting beyond the codex and the books. I haven't picked up the atlas, I'm unsure of what the pen and paper game says about these things. I'm interested in picking them up now, though.

I know how much people hate retcons. Sometimes they're bad, sometimes they're necessarily, sometimes they're inspired and great, like "Why didn't we think of that before?" That's besides the point, though. Thing is, unless the denizens of a certain region are described in a specific way, nothing is even a retcon. It's just content waiting to be explored. I shouldn't even have to point out that while lots of this stuff may have been written down, it's not in our hands, and it's subject to change. I have no doubts it will change, considerably, before it's ready to be released.

Edit for tone. I got my wires crossed.

Modifié par TommyServo, 10 mai 2012 - 07:35 .

[FKA_Servo]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Whereas, I think DA2's gameplay was pretty poor, so I'd rank it as a priority just below fixing the paraphrase system.

Which is fine. You're clearly not alone.

Bioware will make their game, and the end product will please one of us, both of us, or neither of us. In the meantime, I'm going to keep yelling about the things I like.

We agree about the paraphrase system, for what it's worth.

Modifié par TommyServo, 10 mai 2012 - 07:40 .

[AkiKishi]

TommyServo wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

The Qunari are the Moors, sort of. Not sure what that has to do with anything though.

They could conceivably bring with them people of different races from far beyond Thedas. We know that the Qunari invaded - we don't know that they were exclusively kossith. We also don't know what the people on Par Vollen looked like.

BobSmith101 wrote...

Dragon Age goes far beyond the games now, books, a PnP roleplaying system. Think there is even an atlas floating around out there somewhere.

Changing it without a very good reason would do just that. Your reasons are wholly political and have nothing to do with the game.

I want to know where specifically this is stated, so I can go look at it myself. I am admittedly unfamiliar with the lore and setting beyond the codex and the books. I haven't picked up the atlas, I'm unsure of what the pen and paper game says about these things. I'm interested in picking them up now, though.

I know how much people hate retcons. Sometimes they're bad, sometimes they're necessarily, sometimes they're inspired and great, like "Why didn't we think of that before?" That's besides the point, though. Thing is, unless the denizens of a certain region are described in a specific way, nothing is even a retcon. It's just content waiting to be explored. I shouldn't even have to point out that while lots of this stuff may have been written down, it's not in our hands, and it's subject to change. I have no doubts it will change, considerably, before it's ready to be released.

Edit for tone. I got my wires crossed.

Look at the Wiki's people gather stuff from everywhere. Dave knows way more about the world and is unlikely to have just made up the stuff about Rivian on the spot.

I'm sure lot's of different people exist in lot's of places that Feralden does not have contact with. But that does not mean you need to drag them into the game because certain people feel somehow left out of a fictional setting.

[FKA_Servo]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Look at the Wiki's people gather stuff from everywhere. Dave knows way more about the world and is unlikely to have just made up the stuff about Rivian on the spot.

I'm sure lot's of different people exist in lot's of places that Feralden does not have contact with. But that does not mean you need to drag them into the game because certain people feel somehow left out of a fictional setting.

I'm aware that David probably knows what he's talking about. Which is why I asked for clarification. Whether we get it or not, who knows? And I will look at the wikis.

Re the bolded - you keep saying this. It's not just Ferelden, because I'm not taking about just Ferelden, I'm talking about Thedas as a whole. I still don't see why this is an argument against diversity. Yes, David came through and rained on the parade, and I respect his vision even if I don't agree with it. But I would maintain that because we haven't seen some of these places, and assuming they haven't been described in great details, there's no reason why they can't be homeland to other groups of people. Nothing is being retconned if it hasn't been set in stone and released - it's a work in progress.

And honestly? At the end of the day, diversity is important in fiction for all the meta reasons that have come up previously and then some. We're saying "Everyone's white. Why is everyone white?" and providing an explanation that invokes in-game evidence and historical verisimilitude to describe why the setting might be even stronger if that weren't the case. Your response to this has amounted to, "shut up. Everyone is white, and that's fine. Stuff your 'agenda.'" You look silly.

Modifié par TommyServo, 10 mai 2012 - 07:56 .

[AkiKishi]

TommyServo wrote...
And honestly? At the end of the day, diversity is important in fiction for all the meta reasons that have come up previously and then some. We're saying is "Everyone's white. Why is everyone white?" and providing an explanation based on in-game evidence and historical verisimilitude that describes why the setting might be even stronger if that weren't the case. Your response to this amounts to, "shut up. Everyone has to be white. Stuff your 'agenda.'" You look silly.

Everyone is not white though. That's a false statement. Each population is roughly to the geographical location. Since the Moors crop up a lot. They were invaders, they would not naturally look like that if they were indigineous to the region.

My response is everything makes sense the way it is written, you want to change that, then you need a reason beyond some political agenda. Can you say that the game does not make sense as written ? Or that it's just not to your liking, because those are quite different.

[JustifiablyDefenestrated]

I think part of the problem is that elves, qunari and dwarfs are already placeholders for race. They already represent many of the themes of oppression and culture-clash that we see within our own society. Therefore, based on how these races are set up for conflict, it might be hard to present new human cultures/races without taking the spotlight from these fantasy races. This is not to say that there shouldn't be more representation--there definitely should.

Btw, maybe it's just because I'm watching Star Trek: Voyager, but an African elf would be kinda cool. Tuvok is the best Vulcan ever.

Modifié par JustifiablyDefenestrated, 10 mai 2012 - 08:20 .

[FKA_Servo]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Everyone is not white though. That's a false statement. Each population is roughly to the geographical location. Since the Moors crop up a lot. They were invaders, they would not naturally look like that if they were indigineous to the region.

My response is everything makes sense the way it is written, you want to change that, then you need a reason beyond some political agenda. Can you say that the game does not make sense as written ? Or that it's just not to your liking, because those are quite different.

Invaders settle and assimilate. Maybe another race of humans did come with the Qunari? Maybe they moved south? And even if David Gaider says now that Rivain are the only non-white society in Thedas, he can change his mind later and populate the Anderfels with east asian people without violating established canon because apart from a comment on the forum, that canon hasn't necessarily been established yet. The players haven't been there, and we haven't even met anyone from there apart from Anders, who could be established as a transplant - once again, not breaking canon, but expanding upon it.

I can, and I will, say that Kirkwall being so racially homogenous doesn't make sense. I didn't think it made sense in Denerim either, but it's worse with Kirkwall. Obviously, the game does make sense as it is written for the most part. But making the population centers more cosmopolitan and adding people of other races to parts of Thedas that we haven't even seen yet isn't going to make anyone throw up their arms in confusion. Furthermore, there is nothing wrong with a "political" agenda that logically expands upon an already well-realized setting and elevates the medium. Bioware may or may not have had an agenda when they normalized same sex relationships in DA and ME3, but it in this industry it was a brave, admirable move broke boundaries and elevated the medium. I still don't understand exactly why you have such a problem with it. You just keep on yelling "agenda!"

Modifié par TommyServo, 10 mai 2012 - 08:31 .

[wsandista]

mousestalker wrote...

What's really shocking about the DA franchise is the appalling lack of playable halla characters. They aren't even present as npc's in DA2.

Bioware is just prejudiced against hoofed characters.

[nightscrawl]

MichaelStJohn90068 wrote...

You already ret-conned the way dwarves, elves and qunari looked between DA:O and DA2, so how would ret-conning a multi-ethnic Thedas threaten the integrity of the world you've created?

How were dwarves retconned? I mean, Bodahn and Sandal look almost exactly the same as in DAO, and any other dwarves are new characters to us. No presence of female dwarves does not count.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 10 mai 2012 - 08:52 .