217 réponses à ce sujet

[Maria Caliban]

mousestalker wrote...

As a side note of little or no relevance, the Roman Empire ruled almost all the good bits of Europe, North Africa, and parts of Asia.

The Romans had a habit of moving soldiers from one end of the Empire to another. And of course, everyone came to Rome. They also imported slaves in great numbers from Africa, Asia and Northern Europe.

Sadly, there's been no nation like that in Thedas' past.

GhostKiwi wrote...

They were still in Medieval Europe so the idea that Europe was some kind of White Supremacist dreamland before the 18th century is still absurd, and not an excuse not to have POC in DA.

Dude, I watched Lord of the Rings four times and never saw anyone who wasn't white.

Remember, there were also no dragons or darkspawn in Medieval Europe, but I don't see anyone complaining about that.

But dragons and darkspawn don't ruin believability.

JustifiablyDefenestrated wrote...

I think part of the problem is that elves, qunari and dwarfs are already placeholders for race.

Right.

Humans = white people.
Non-humans = non-white people.

That's the way World of Warcraft does it and no one complains.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 10 mai 2012 - 09:05 .

[wsandista]

Maria Caliban wrote...

mousestalker wrote...

As a side note of little or no relevance, the Roman Empire ruled almost all the good bits of Europe, North Africa, and parts of Asia.

The Romans had a habit of moving soldiers from one end of the Empire to another. And of course, everyone came to Rome. They also imported slaves in great numbers from Africa, Asia and Northern Europe.

Sadly, there's been no nation like that in Thedas' past.

I know, it isn't like Tevinter traded with Dwarves and conquered a large area of Thedas.

[Sylvius the Mad]

nightscrawl wrote...

How were dwarves retconned? I mean, Bodahn and Sandal look almost exactly the same as in DAO, and any other dwarves are new characters to us.

Bodahn and Sandal bear, at most, a passing resemblance to their DAO selves.

[FKA_Servo]

I dunno about that. If anything, Bodahn just doesn't talk as much. Otherwise, they're pretty much the same. Everyone obviously looks a little different because the engine change up necessitated redesigns, but none of those things were retconned.

[Zanallen]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I'm all for inclusion personally, however, I wouldn't want POC to simply "appear." If Thedas is going to have say, black or Asian-looking people in their universe, I want to know where on the map they come from. That means expanding the geography of Thedas, introducing a new culture and fleshing out that culture (at least to some basic standards similar to areas of Thedas we have not personally visited, such as the Anderfels).

But that's my standard, because while I'd play a POC character without hesitation (more than half of my TOR characters were nonwhite, though primarily because I don't play aliens and yet wanted variety) if those conditions were met, it bugs me on a metagaming level to play a character who - based on the current setting - would have everyone they ran into asking them why they look so different and where the hell they come from. That they don't sort of (deep breath) breaks my immersions.

This. I'm all for people of color, but it has to make sense within the context of the world. People with darker skin tones are going to be from the northern areas of Thedas. Basically Rivain...Though I don't know why it is just Rivain and not nothern Tevinter or the Anderfels. Perhaps Thedas is tilted and Rivain is the closest to the equator?

[Wulfram]

Zanallen wrote...

This. I'm all for people of color, but it has to make sense within the context of the world. People with darker skin tones are going to be from the northern areas of Thedas. Basically Rivain...Though I don't know why it is just Rivain and not nothern Tevinter or the Anderfels. Perhaps Thedas is tilted and Rivain is the closest to the equator?

Humans are relatively recent settlers in Thedas, so I'd guess that skin colour is more about what sort of people chose to settle there than a reaction to the climate.

[Sylvius the Mad]

TommyServo wrote...

I dunno about that. If anything, Bodahn just doesn't talk as much. Otherwise, they're pretty much the same. Everyone obviously looks a little different because the engine change up necessitated redesigns, but none of those things were retconned.

I have no idea why they changed the engine.  DAO's engine was wholly adequate.

[Vormaerin]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Dude, I watched Lord of the Rings four times and never saw anyone who wasn't white.
 

Well, there are non white people in Middle Earth.   But they aren't the folks living in the small corner of the world that actually features in the stories.   The whole of Middle Earth covered in Lord of the Rings, is less than 1/3 the size of Europe. The Haradrim and Southrons were not white, nor were they Orcs.

Not to mention, the Lord of the Rings was explicitly intended to be an AngloSaxon mythology analogue, because that is what Professor Tolkein studied and wanted to replicate.

So white folks were a conscious choice based on the source material.

[Dakota Strider]

For all we know, Thedas is the "crappy" part of the world, and only the riff raff live there. All the primo real estate is being controlled by these hypothetical people of varying color, and they are keeping the white man down, by forcing them to live in Thedas.

Its as good a theory as any.

[Vormaerin]

GhostKiwi wrote...

Maybe some of you don't like how advanced the Moors were in comparison to the "white" ethnic groups like the Norse?

Southern Europe is separated from Africa by only a small, readily navigable body of water.  I don't see any such anywhere near the parts of Thedas that we've seen.

Considering that Fereldan and the Free Marches are pretty much as far south as it gets, its looking to be the end point of any migrations, not a mixing ground.

Further, this is a fantasy world with elves, dwarves, qunari, and who knows what else.   On Earth, humans expanded over the entire world and into every climate zone.   There's no reason to believe that they did this in a fantasy world.   If early human migrants expanded and ran smack into the Qunari and failed to displace them, there wouldn't be humans living in that part of the world.

Melanin content in skin is climate adaptation.  Do we have any evidence of humans dwelling in the regions that would cause that sort of adaptation in this world?

I don't know if the devs have migration maps, tectonic histories, and other world building tools like that done.   Humans on another world don't have to match the spread of humans in the real world.   They don't even have to match humans that exist in the real world.

The ethnic groups of the Greyhawk world don't match any ethnicities in the real world.   The Suel have pale skin, but kinky (ie African) hair.  The baklunish have  golden hued skin with blue-black hair.    And so on.

It should be determined by the world building, not by some need for "real world" representation.  

[addiction21]

Vormaerin wrote...

It should be determined by the world building, not by some need for "real world" representation.  

Thats all you really needed to say.

[Vormaerin]

addiction21 wrote...

Vormaerin wrote...

It should be determined by the world building, not by some need for "real world" representation.  

Thats all you really needed to say.

No, because I said that before and people keep making arguments by analogy to the real world.   So I felt it necessary to expand on what I meant by that.

Its entirely possible that many posters have never built a fantasy world in any depth and never considered any of these factors.

Modifié par Vormaerin, 11 mai 2012 - 12:32 .

[Tirigon]

TommyServo wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

On a side note: Would including colored people truly be a sign of inclusiveness and tolerance?

To me, shoving them into a world based on medieval Europe would look more like hidden racism.

 

Not that this matters, because whatever it's basis, Thedas is not an AU medieval Europe, but... if you want to consider this through the lens of history, and what the people of an actual city like, say, Rome, looked a thousand years ago, you should take a history course.

Tirigon wrote...

Like "Oh my god these poor blacks we need to have some black guys in our game so they dont feel inferior." Which is of course very stupid and racist, because people should not be judged by the color of their skin.

I think we shouldnt care for people's skin color because it really doesnt matter.

 

You're missing the point. And you're ignoring context, like our buddy Bob.

"Skin color doesn't matter, so it's fine that everyone's white all the time" isn't really a solution to what I or the OP are talking about. It's a pervasive, underlying norm that... sucks. Maybe not everyone who's affected by this are bothered by it. A lot of people are. Sentiments like that betray your privilege. I'm not saying it's an overtly racist attitude - but there is an undeniable undercurrent to that.

Tirigon wrote...

And that also means, not including colored characters if the game world is based on medieval Europe, which happens to not have been as multicultural as the US or modern Europe.

Of course one might argue that the game shouldnt be set in such a place then. Personally, I wouldnt mind. For all I care BioWare could make a game world based on Africa, and consequently have next to no whites.....

But as Gaider above me set: that is not the direction they chose, and that's that.

 

Again... take a history course. Or read the entire thread to familiarize yourself with what exactly we're discussing.

Maybe you should re-read what you just quoted before you talk about it.

And maybe you should learn some things about medieval Europe as well.


As for underlying Racism: No, really not. Like I said, I dont care about it.

I am so far past racism that I simply cant understand the problem. To me, racism seems just as stupid as discriminating people for, say, having curls instead of straight hair, or wearing suits rather than t-shirts.....

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Tirigon thinks that because women
are sexualized in games, female gamers are getting better treatment
than males. That's an even easier problem to wrap one's head around and
he's totally off base about that, too.

He's... got a long way to go before he can understand this stuff.

Having a different view than the stupid majority doesnt mean I lack understanding. Hell, it kind of shows I am the ONLY one who understands.

I'm
all for inclusion personally, however, I wouldn't want POC to simply
"appear." If Thedas is going to have say, black or Asian-looking people
in their universe, I want to know where on the map they come from.
That means expanding the geography of Thedas, introducing a new culture
and fleshing out that culture (at least to some basic standards similar
to areas of Thedas we have not personally visited, such as the
Anderfels).

But that's my standard, because while I'd play
a POC character without hesitation (more than half of my TOR characters
were nonwhite, though primarily because I don't play aliens and yet
wanted variety) if those conditions were met, it bugs me on a metagaming
level to play a character who - based on the current setting - would
have everyone they ran into asking them why they look so different and
where the hell they come from. That they don't sort of (deep breath)
breaks my immersions.

That is what I said.

Finally with regards to history, yeah, read a book. Preferably several.

Considering that for 99% of the population, the world ended at the next city or town 20 miles away, I dont think there have been lots of colored people in medieval Europe.

But yea, I guess there were some taken along in freak shows and the likes, next to the dwarves and giants, people were like that.

Only that surely wouldnt seem like a good place to have them in games, right? Just imagine the sh!tstorm.

Modifié par Tirigon, 11 mai 2012 - 12:50 .

[addiction21]

Vormaerin wrote...

No, because I said that before and people keep making arguments by analogy to the real world.   So I felt it necessary to expand on what I meant by that.

Sorry I must of missed that post of yours. It kinda happens when I try catching up on threads.

Vormaerin wrote...

Its entirely possible that many posters have never built a fantasy world in any depth and never considered any of these factors.

I suspect thats true. After reading David Gaiders posts I understand why it makes sense and why they are the way they are.

[Tirigon]

TommyServo wrote...

LiquidGrape wrote...

You're asking if being more inclusive would be a sign of inclusiveness and tolerance.
Just an observation.

Also, a definite sign of inclusiveness and tolerance would be not to use colonial era epithets for people of colour.

P.S
And again, why are people so willfully ignoring the existence of the Moors in European history? They ruled and inhabited the Iberian peninsula for nearly a millenium.
D.S

I've mentioned this, and I'm not the only one who has. It's one of the reasons I suggest that they take a history course or otherwise familiarize themselves with what they're talking about.

I think in many cases, the strength of one's opinions on a given topic are inversely proportional to their understanding of said topic. It's a human quirk.

The Moors came from africa. And they were.... not exactly well-liked, except as a target of self-proclaimed holy knights wishing to "free the land of the heathens",  that is, plunder and murder.

That aside, it is as Sutekh said:

I think it's because people reduce Europe to North-West Europe (mainly
British Isles, Germany and Scandinavia), especially when fantasy is
involved. Personally, I blame Tolkien and the Irish  

mousestalker wrote...

As a side note of little or no
relevance, the Roman Empire ruled almost all the good bits of Europe,
North Africa, and parts of Asia.

The Romans had a habit of moving
soldiers from one end of the Empire to another. And of course, everyone
came to Rome. They also imported slaves in great numbers from Africa,
Asia and Northern Europe.

Much like the Tevinters did in dragon ages past.

That is certainly true, but also, as you say yourself, barely relevant here, because medieval Europe and Europe during the Roman Empire are 2 totall different things.

[Tirigon]

Vormaerin wrote...

addiction21 wrote...

Vormaerin wrote...

It should be determined by the world building, not by some need for "real world" representation.  

Thats all you really needed to say.

No, because I said that before and people keep making arguments by analogy to the real world.   So I felt it necessary to expand on what I meant by that.

Its entirely possible that many posters have never built a fantasy world in any depth and never considered any of these factors.

People do that because Gaider stated - even in this very thread - that they decided to base the DA setting on medieval Europe. And once you do that, you have certain things to consider, even if they are limiting you.

Personally I would prefer a world not based on RL at all, to be free of such limitations - diversity is a good thing, and besides... it saves us from threads such as this oneB)

But, for good or ill, that's just not how it is.

Modifié par Tirigon, 11 mai 2012 - 12:58 .

[FKA_Servo]

Tirigon wrote...

The Moors came from africa. And they were.... not exactly well-liked, except as a target of self-proclaimed holy knights wishing to "free the land of the heathens",  that is, plunder and murder.
....
That is certainly true, but also, as you say yourself, barely relevant here, because medieval Europe and Europe during the Roman Empire are 2 totall different things.

I take it all back. You clearly know exactly what you're talking about. 

You're very enlightened. 

It's heartening to know that you're so far past racism as well. 

You should teach people. 

Modifié par TommyServo, 11 mai 2012 - 02:52 .

[wsandista]

Dakota Strider wrote...

For all we know, Thedas is the "crappy" part of the world, and only the riff raff live there. All the primo real estate is being controlled by these hypothetical people of varying color, and they are keeping the white man down, by forcing them to live in Thedas.

Its as good a theory as any.

Or the hypothetical people of color (who were in DAO) are the Maker's chosen and have ascended to the Black City.

[Vormaerin]

Tirigon wrote...

People do that because Gaider stated - even in this very thread - that they decided to base the DA setting on medieval Europe. And once you do that, you have certain things to consider, even if they are limiting you.

Personally I would prefer a world not based on RL at all, to be free of such limitations - diversity is a good thing, and besides... it saves us from threads such as this oneB)

But, for good or ill, that's just not how it is.

The skin color of your population is not one of the things that is determined by being a medieval Europe clone.  The D&D gameworld of Greyhawk is a medieval Europe inspired world and its not a white man's land.

Not to mention, he didn't say which Medieval Europe.    10th century Northern Europe?   Medieval Spain?  Kievan Rus?  

What does that mean, anyway?  Are the Qunari the analogues of the Moors?

All being a medieval Europe inspired world says, since its clearly not a pastiche, is that we have a centralized church, knights, semi-feudal economies, and similar traits.

[slashthedragon]

[AkiKishi]

Vormaerin wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

People do that because Gaider stated - even in this very thread - that they decided to base the DA setting on medieval Europe. And once you do that, you have certain things to consider, even if they are limiting you.

Personally I would prefer a world not based on RL at all, to be free of such limitations - diversity is a good thing, and besides... it saves us from threads such as this oneB)

But, for good or ill, that's just not how it is.

The skin color of your population is not one of the things that is determined by being a medieval Europe clone.  The D&D gameworld of Greyhawk is a medieval Europe inspired world and its not a white man's land.

Not to mention, he didn't say which Medieval Europe.    10th century Northern Europe?   Medieval Spain?  Kievan Rus?  

What does that mean, anyway?  Are the Qunari the analogues of the Moors?

All being a medieval Europe inspired world says, since its clearly not a pastiche, is that we have a centralized church, knights, semi-feudal economies, and similar traits.

That's how they wrote the known world. If you break down any world creation you can find real world historical culture , in whole or in part. Or real world mythologies.
To make a believable world you can't just plonk down things where you feel like , they need a reason to be there and an explanation as to how they got there.
In the case of a fantasy world you have the non humans taking over the roles of certain cultures/civilisations. According to the Wiki for example, Rivian is "Spain" and the Quanari are the invading Moors.

[AkiKishi]

slashthedragon wrote...

As a miniature painter who once did a diorama of Rorkes Drift and ended up painting his Zulus "cadbury brown" because it was just impossible to get a pleasing look on that scale with "black" I have the feeling it's something that is not as easy as it might appear.

[Tirigon]

TommyServo wrote...


I take it all back. You clearly know exactly what you're talking about. 

You're very enlightened. 

It's heartening to know that you're so far past racism as well. 

You should teach people. 

Yea I know. But I dont feel like it. Just go back to sulking and trolling, since you are obviously unable to participate in a real discussion. Maybe if you cry enough you get your will, it has happened before.

Vormaerin wrote...

The skin color of your population is
not one of the things that is determined by being a medieval Europe
clone.  The D&D gameworld of Greyhawk is a medieval Europe inspired
world and its not a white man's land.

But that would depend on just how true you want to stay to the inspiration. From the way most people in DAO and DA2 look, I would assume that BioWare thought more like me, otherwise we would surely have a colored population.

Not to mention, he didn't say which Medieval Europe.    10th century Northern Europe?   Medieval Spain?  Kievan Rus?  

Medieval Europe is mostly Germany, France, England etc.....

What does that mean, anyway?  Are the Qunari the analogues of the Moors?

Maybe, but what does it even matter?

All
being a medieval Europe inspired world says, since its clearly not a
pastiche, is that we have a centralized church, knights, semi-feudal
economies, and similar traits.

Why?
Saying these things are determined by the inspiration, but the ethnicity of the population is not, seems like a rather random selection to me.

[MILK FOR THE KHORNE FLAKES]

Tirigon wrote...

Vormaerin wrote...

The skin color of your population is
not one of the things that is determined by being a medieval Europe
clone.  The D&D gameworld of Greyhawk is a medieval Europe inspired
world and its not a white man's land.

But that would depend on just how true you want to stay to the inspiration. From the way most people in DAO and DA2 look, I would assume that BioWare thought more like me, otherwise we would surely have a colored population.

IT'S NOT LIKE THEY DON'T TAKE SEVERAL MASSIVE DEPARTURES FROM MEDIEVAL EUROPE ANYWAY IN TERMS OF CENTRAL STUFF LIKE SOCIAL/POLITICAL STRUCTURE, LITERACY, WEAPONS, CLOTHING, AND ARMOR, AND SO ON.