217 réponses à ce sujet

[Tirigon]

MILK FOR THE KHORNE FLAKES wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

Vormaerin wrote...

The skin color of your population is
not one of the things that is determined by being a medieval Europe
clone.  The D&D gameworld of Greyhawk is a medieval Europe inspired
world and its not a white man's land.

But that would depend on just how true you want to stay to the inspiration. From the way most people in DAO and DA2 look, I would assume that BioWare thought more like me, otherwise we would surely have a colored population.

IT'S NOT LIKE THEY DON'T TAKE SEVERAL MASSIVE DEPARTURES FROM MEDIEVAL EUROPE ANYWAY IN TERMS OF CENTRAL STUFF LIKE SOCIAL/POLITICAL STRUCTURE, LITERACY, WEAPONS, CLOTHING, AND ARMOR, AND SO ON.

That just proves my point - apparently they felt no need to follow these, but they DID wish to keep the ethnicities of the population intact.

[AkiKishi]

Tirigon wrote...

MILK FOR THE KHORNE FLAKES wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

Vormaerin wrote...

The skin color of your population is
not one of the things that is determined by being a medieval Europe
clone.  The D&D gameworld of Greyhawk is a medieval Europe inspired
world and its not a white man's land.

But that would depend on just how true you want to stay to the inspiration. From the way most people in DAO and DA2 look, I would assume that BioWare thought more like me, otherwise we would surely have a colored population.

IT'S NOT LIKE THEY DON'T TAKE SEVERAL MASSIVE DEPARTURES FROM MEDIEVAL EUROPE ANYWAY IN TERMS OF CENTRAL STUFF LIKE SOCIAL/POLITICAL STRUCTURE, LITERACY, WEAPONS, CLOTHING, AND ARMOR, AND SO ON.

That just proves my point - apparently they felt no need to follow these, but they DID wish to keep the ethnicities of the population intact.

It generally only makes sense in games like Mass Effect where Earth is the focus rather than individual areas. Even now with access to mass transit populations are still very localised. Wander around where I live and you won't see an ethnic minority (unless you count English people). Go further afield and you will, but still not in any great numbers. Do the same in an African country and the reverse will be the case.

Obviously there are areas that will be the exception.

https://spreadsheets...DZENxj9B3Ujnfcw

[Wulfram]

The point of real colour blind casting is to ensure that you're not excluding excellent actors from roles they're well suited to. Not to give a sense of inclusiveness.

That's a non issue with voice acting. Though I suppose you could have "accent-deaf" casting.

[MILK FOR THE KHORNE FLAKES]

Tirigon wrote...

MILK FOR THE KHORNE FLAKES wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

Vormaerin wrote...

The skin color of your population is
not one of the things that is determined by being a medieval Europe
clone.  The D&D gameworld of Greyhawk is a medieval Europe inspired
world and its not a white man's land.

But that would depend on just how true you want to stay to the inspiration. From the way most people in DAO and DA2 look, I would assume that BioWare thought more like me, otherwise we would surely have a colored population.

IT'S NOT LIKE THEY DON'T TAKE SEVERAL MASSIVE DEPARTURES FROM MEDIEVAL EUROPE ANYWAY IN TERMS OF CENTRAL STUFF LIKE SOCIAL/POLITICAL STRUCTURE, LITERACY, WEAPONS, CLOTHING, AND ARMOR, AND SO ON.

That just proves my point - apparently they felt no need to follow these, but they DID wish to keep the ethnicities of the population intact.

I THINK THE DEPARTURES FROM HOW MEDIEVAL EUROPE FUNCTIONED WEREN'T DESIGN DECISIONS, BUT WERE JUST A FUNCTION OF THEM NOT THINKING ABOUT STUFF LIKE WHETHER A IMPOVERISHED OUTCAST WOULD LIKELY KNOW HOW TO READ IN A PRE-INDUSTRIAL SOCIETY, OR HOW A class SYSTEM WOULD AFFECT SOCIAL INTERACTIONS BETWEEN INDIVIDUALS ACROSS classES.

IN THE SAME SENSE, I DON'T THINK THAT THEIR FANTASY WORLD BEING PREDOMINANTLY WHITE WAS SOMETHING THEY THOUGHT ABOUT AT ALL. I THINK THEY JUST REPLICATED WHAT THEY SAW IN MOST MODERN HIGH FANTASY.

[Tirigon]

^ and why do they see that?

Right, because having the world set on medieval Europe, i. e. something we are familiar with, is better if the primary audience is Europe and the US.

[Merlex]

JustifiablyDefenestrated wrote...

wijse wrote...

There needs to be a handicapped person!

Are you really going there? Are you really insinuating that non-white people are akin to handicapped? >.>

Um, what's wrong with handicapped people? Your post comes off as its an insult or shameful to be handicapped. Though i doubt that was your intention. My nephew loves handicapped heroes in movies, tv, and games. It allows him to identify with them, as he is in a wheelchair.

Bioware should have made Kirkwall more ethnically diverse, being that its a port city and all. I have no problem with having ethnic diverse companions and other characters. It would be fun to explore other nations and cultures. Though they would have to be careful about stereotyping. And the diversity should make sense with the story and setting. As the franchise progresses i would like to see the whole world open up to us eventually. However the player should always have control of what their pc looks like, and that includes choice of race (meaning elves, dwarves, ect.). But that is another topic.

Modifié par Merlex, 11 mai 2012 - 02:37 .

[Merlex]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

As it happens, I didn't like dark-skinned Isabela. I modded her to make her white.

Well that's just sad. I love Isabela just the way she is.

[MILK FOR THE KHORNE FLAKES]

Tirigon wrote...

^ and why do they see that?

Right, because having the world set on medieval Europe, i. e. something we are familiar with, is better if the primary audience is Europe and the US.

PEOPLE CURRENTLY ALIVE AREN'T FAMILIAR WITH MEDIEVAL EUROPE, BECAUSE WE DON'T LIVE THEN. MOST PEOPLE PLAYING THESE GAMES LIVE IN A WORLD WHERE LITERACY, ETHNIC DIVERSITY, (COMPARATIVELY) MINOR class DIVISIONS, CONSISTENTLY EFFECTIVE MEDICINE, AND SO ON ARE THE RULE, NOT THE EXCEPTION.

I DON'T SEE ANY PARTICULAR REASON WHY DRAGON AGE CAN REFLECT THE MODERN WORLD IN A VARIETY OF WAYS THAT FUNDAMENTALLY AFFECT THE WAY THAT PEOPLE LIVE, BUT CAN'T ALSO REFLECT THE SORT OF ETHNIC DIVERSITY YOU SEE IN THE MODERN WORLD AND SAW IN MANY PARTS OF THE MEDIEVAL WORLD.

[Tirigon]

Most people ARE familiar with it because it is our cultural background.

[Das Tentakel]

MILK FOR THE KHORNE FLAKES wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

^ and why do they see that?

Right, because having the world set on medieval Europe, i. e. something we are familiar with, is better if the primary audience is Europe and the US.

PEOPLE CURRENTLY ALIVE AREN'T FAMILIAR WITH MEDIEVAL EUROPE, BECAUSE WE DON'T LIVE THEN. MOST PEOPLE PLAYING THESE GAMES LIVE IN A WORLD WHERE LITERACY, ETHNIC DIVERSITY, (COMPARATIVELY) MINOR class DIVISIONS, CONSISTENTLY EFFECTIVE MEDICINE, AND SO ON ARE THE RULE, NOT THE EXCEPTION.

I DON'T SEE ANY PARTICULAR REASON WHY DRAGON AGE CAN REFLECT THE MODERN WORLD IN A VARIETY OF WAYS THAT FUNDAMENTALLY AFFECT THE WAY THAT PEOPLE LIVE, BUT CAN'T ALSO REFLECT THE SORT OF ETHNIC DIVERSITY YOU SEE IN THE MODERN WORLD AND SAW IN MANY PARTS OF THE MEDIEVAL WORLD.

What he said. Even historians and archaeologists have to make a real effort to mentally place themselves in the period - it is such a vastly different time. And we are talking about a millennium of an entire continent's history.

As for the 'market', the primary market is the USA, not Europe. Then the English-speaking countries, then the rest (which happens to include Europe).
When was the last time anyone played a fantasy that has a Carolingian, Italian Renaissance, medieval Imperial German, Byzantine, or Russo-Slavic atmosphere? Or even a genuinely Dark Age Scandinavian one?
The Witcher comes closest in looking and feeling 'different', and that one is made in Poland. That is not a coincidence.

Tirigon wrote...

Most people ARE familiar with it because it is our cultural background.

No, they are familiar with Hollywood and D&D tropes. Even Europeans themselves. When I have to explain things about even some of the most basic facts - clothing, food, architecture etc. - I have to fight a constant battle against those.
Educational system or not, most people just have 'Knights/Castles/Swords' on their minds, and sometimes they remember things like the Catholic Church, the Crusades and the Black Death. Oh, and everything was brown and grey...
And THAT is the level at which DA is based on 'medieval Europe'.

[AkiKishi]

Das Tentakel wrote...

MILK FOR THE KHORNE FLAKES wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

^ and why do they see that?

Right, because having the world set on medieval Europe, i. e. something we are familiar with, is better if the primary audience is Europe and the US.

PEOPLE CURRENTLY ALIVE AREN'T FAMILIAR WITH MEDIEVAL EUROPE, BECAUSE WE DON'T LIVE THEN. MOST PEOPLE PLAYING THESE GAMES LIVE IN A WORLD WHERE LITERACY, ETHNIC DIVERSITY, (COMPARATIVELY) MINOR class DIVISIONS, CONSISTENTLY EFFECTIVE MEDICINE, AND SO ON ARE THE RULE, NOT THE EXCEPTION.

I DON'T SEE ANY PARTICULAR REASON WHY DRAGON AGE CAN REFLECT THE MODERN WORLD IN A VARIETY OF WAYS THAT FUNDAMENTALLY AFFECT THE WAY THAT PEOPLE LIVE, BUT CAN'T ALSO REFLECT THE SORT OF ETHNIC DIVERSITY YOU SEE IN THE MODERN WORLD AND SAW IN MANY PARTS OF THE MEDIEVAL WORLD.

What he said. Even historians and archaeologists have to make a real effort to mentally place themselves in the period - it is such a vastly different time. And we are talking about a millennium of an entire continent's history.

As for the 'market', the primary market is the USA, not Europe. Then the English-speaking countries, then the rest (which happens to include Europe).
When was the last time anyone played a fantasy that has a Carolingian, Italian Renaissance, medieval Imperial German, Byzantine, or Russo-Slavic atmosphere? Or even a genuinely Dark Age Scandinavian one?
The Witcher comes closest in looking and feeling 'different', and that one is made in Poland. That is not a coincidence.

Tirigon wrote...

Most people ARE familiar with it because it is our cultural background.

No, they are familiar with Hollywood and D&D tropes. Even Europeans themselves. When I have to explain things about even some of the most basic facts - clothing, food, architecture etc. - I have to fight a constant battle against those.
Educational system or not, most people just have 'Knights/Castles/Swords' on their minds, and sometimes they remember things like the Catholic Church, the Crusades and the Black Death. Oh, and everything was brown and grey...
And THAT is the level at which DA is based on 'medieval Europe'.

Assassins Creed count as an RPG? RPG wise there are very few outside of Japan anyway. But other games have a wider variety of settings simply because there are more of them.

Witcher is hillarious it's raw and down to Earth take on things is very refreshing.

[JustifiablyDefenestrated]

Merlex wrote...

Um, what's wrong with handicapped people? Your post comes off as its an insult or shameful to be handicapped. Though i doubt that was your intention. My nephew loves handicapped heroes in movies, tv, and games. It allows him to identify with them, as he is in a wheelchair.

Bioware should have made Kirkwall more ethnically diverse, being that its a port city and all. I have no problem with having ethnic diverse companions and other characters. It would be fun to explore other nations and cultures. Though they would have to be careful about stereotyping. And the diversity should make sense with the story and setting. As the franchise progresses i would like to see the whole world open up to us eventually. However the player should always have control of what their pc looks like, and that includes choice of race (meaning elves, dwarves, ect.). But that is another topic.

You're absolutely right. My post was inflamatory and not well-thought-out. And for that, I sincerely apologize. It was not my intention to come off calous or insensitive, but, after re-reading it, I can see that it was all of that. I was frustrated that the thread was being derailed by a seperate (albeit imporant) conversation and didn't react well... 

As a side-note I've posted a link to this blog post before, but it seems to be frequently relevant.  It specifically talks about the issue of female character developement and the idea of an automatic-protagonist within movies and literature, but I think it could apply equally to the issue of race and world-building within games. 

Additionally, there's an article that I found this morning that is highly pertinent to this thread; it talks specifically about the inclusion of race and gender within media. Here's the link!

[Tirigon]

Das Tentakel wrote...

As for the 'market', the primary market is the USA, not Europe. Then the English-speaking countries, then the rest (which happens to include Europe).

Americans are prone to believe that, because for most of them not being the centre of the universe is unthinkable. But Europe is still more important, in fact.

[Tirigon]

JustifiablyDefenestrated wrote...


Additionally, there's an article that I found this morning that is highly pertinent to this thread; it talks specifically about the inclusion of race and gender within media. Here's the link!

An interesting article, but there is one huuuuge problem I have with it:

Why should you try to "get it right" anyways?

Games are not a political battleground. If a developer doesnt want black characters, it's their right. You may find that racist, ok. You would probably be right, even. But so what? The author / developer can do what they want. They are not forced to include something just for the sake of inclusiveness.

[Sylvius the Mad]

JustifiablyDefenestrated wrote...

Additionally, there's an article that I found this morning that is highly pertinent to this thread; it talks specifically about the inclusion of race and gender within media. Here's the link! 

That article presupposes that inclusion is beneficial.

I think that's a discussion worth having, rather than just assuming a result.

[FKA_Servo]

Tirigon wrote...

JustifiablyDefenestrated wrote...


Additionally, there's an article that I found this morning that is highly pertinent to this thread; it talks specifically about the inclusion of race and gender within media. Here's the link!

An interesting article, but there is one huuuuge problem I have with it:

Why should you try to "get it right" anyways?

Games are not a political battleground. If a developer doesnt want black characters, it's their right. You may find that racist, ok. You would probably be right, even. But so what? The author / developer can do what they want. They are not forced to include something just for the sake of inclusiveness.

They aren't required to do anything. Similarly, we are not barred from raising our concerns (that's the purpose of this forum). Bioware can choose to take our feedback into consideration or not.

I feel that these games are certainly collaborative works of art, on many levels. But, as the retakers love to remind all of us, they are still products to be sold to consumers. Sometimes, they might compromise or amend their vision according to the whims of their audience. They have in the past, and that's not a bad thing. I would argue that fan support of inclusive romances is what put them in the Dragon Age games. It's certainly why they were finally added to Mass Effect 3.

The addition of inclusive romance options may not have been a strictly political move, but you wouldn't know that from the response of fans and critics alike - not to mention Bioware and EA's reaction to the criticism. I would argue that it elevated the medium as well. Bioware is a big deal. EA is a big deal. If they set the course for more positive and realistic (non-stereotyped) representation of LBGT people, relationships, and situations, others will follow suit.

Nearly every argument made in favor of inclusive romances can be extended to more diverse representation. At the end of the day, it removes nothing from the setting for anyone (unless you happen to be offended by non-white folks in your high fantasy) while greatly enriching the setting for lots of people who are affected by this issue.

There are any number of critically acclaimed, intellectually offensive, racially tone deaf fixed protagonist games I could play if I wanted to - but I'd rather play Bioware games. They are good for (generally) all the good reasons. And they have gotten progressively better. But they can be better still, and I'm going to throw in my two cents in the hope that that happens.

Modifié par TommyServo, 11 mai 2012 - 05:36 .

[Reznore57]

Why get it right ?
Because the all white or all black put people in some form of mental "ghetto" .
Same as female /male and people get stuck in painful social stereotype.
There's an history behind the difference of equality from one people to another.
Take female , their place upon religion evolve from paien myth to mono father figured religion.
The way the female were represented as a concept change and the role of female changed in society.

So when you deal with archetype /stereotype and feed them to the masses , you have a bit of responsability.

Now i'm not saying they have to take that responsability and take a stand.It's a personnal choice after all.

[JustifiablyDefenestrated]

Tirigon wrote...

An interesting article, but there is one huuuuge problem I have with it:

Why should you try to "get it right" anyways?

Games are not a political battleground. If a developer doesnt want black characters, it's their right. You may find that racist, ok. You would probably be right, even. But so what? The author / developer can do what they want. They are not forced to include something just for the sake of inclusiveness.

Hmmm... I'll try to argue my perspective to the best of my abilities, but this is a huge can of worms and you bring up some very interesting objections. 

First, I'll address your question as to why we should even be trying to "get it right" generally speaking. I have two assumptions that I base my argument off of: 1) media and literature is grounded, on the most fundamental level, in our perception of reality and 2) our perception of reality can be influenced by the media and literature that we are exposed to.  What I mean when I say that media is grounded in reality is this: our preconceptions help shape the worlds and stories we see within books/movies/games. I'm not talking about real, physical objects or quanifiable statistics, but emotions and subversive themes that occur again and again within our lives. For example, take Harry Potter; of course dragons, goblins and wizards do not (to the best of our knowledge) exist in the real world, but the reason that the books are compelling is because they recite the story of a single person, empowered with empathy and friendship, battling an evil that possesses neither--it embodies the battle between human and non-human emotions that each of us struggles with. My second assumption, that books or other media can shape our reality, is based off personal experience. As far as personal experience goes, I like to point to George Orwell's 1984. It made a point about nationalism and totalitarianism which I can't help but incorporate into my own life. When I see tv comentators avoiding certain words or phrases, it reminds me of the "double-speak" within the books; the proliferation of Facebook and twitter incurs a near constant loss of privacy that I find myself disturbingly complacent with. In other words, literature helps me think about my own perspective on life. I could also point to historical examples where literature helped shape societal perspectives and discourse (Bible, Femine Mystique, Uncle Tom's Cabin, V for Vendetta, Allegory of a Cave) but I'll leave it at that.

All of that leads up to my point that literature, games or other media have the ability to influence people in both negative and positive ways. It's a form of escapism for some, or just a way of wasting time for others but, ultimately, it can help create a society that is more inclusive and less xenophobic--a society where people are judged based on their merits, rather than their appearance. Isn't this something that aught to be done? At the very least, it reduces the suffering incurred by misunderstandings and unwarrented stereotyping.

Now, on to your second objection which I interpreted as the fact that game developers don't have a moral obligation to create games where people of different nationalities are represented equally. The best analogy I can think of is this: suppose there is a restaurant that serves coffee and sandwiches  at lunch time. Now suppose that for every caucasian customer that comes through the door, the service is extremely fast, the food is freshly baked, and catered to their specific desires. However, when a non-white person walks through the door, the service is a little less fast and the food, while adequate, is not quite as fresh. There seems to be something intrinsically wrong with this situation, right? Even though the restaurant is a private company, able to make it's own decisions and divorced from any form of official politics, it seems like they should be morally obligated to treat all of their customers equally. If we apply this situation to the example of a game company such as Bioware, it seems that they too should be attempting to provide equal qualities of experiences to all their customers regardless of race. Excluding certain races from the fabric of the universe seems to be a clear example of unequal experiences.

And, there you have it. Sorry for the wall of text. I just finished my philosophy final, so I'm feeling analytical...  Hope to read your response!

[upsettingshorts]

Tirigon wrote...

I am so far past racism that I simply cant understand the problem 

You don't get to do that.

If a social issue exists, checking yourself out of the debate over it because you claim you're beyond it is a disgusting level of arrogance and betrays embarrassing amounts of immaturity.  

Tirigon wrote... 

Having a different view than the stupid majority doesnt mean I lack understanding. Hell, it kind of shows I am the ONLY one who understands.

It implies no such thing.  Your position has no value aside from that which your hilariously inflated ego attaches to it.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and the entirety of the latter is working against you.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 11 mai 2012 - 06:02 .

[Tirigon]

Dont have the time to read your responses in detail now, but I will later.

For now, just 2 quick things:
@ TommyServo: I dont blame anyone for wanting inculisveness. I myself have argued for the inclusion of Same Sex content in ME2 and 3, back in the time.
However, what annoys me is if people bring political reasons for it into play. I wanted it not because of some agenda, but because I find choice important in an RPG, and because personally, I prefer playing a lesbain character.

@ Upsettingshorts: Racism is only a social issue because people like you make an elephant out of every fly; it is not one on a larger scale (even though it used to be - denying that would be stupid indeed).
Most people have long since realized how stupid it is, and the few assh*les who havent are mostly neon@zis and right-wing terrorists, with whom you cant deal with words but only with guns anyways.

To get rid of racism one does not need stupid agendas, one needs to just ignore the issue - sociological problems, much unlike things such as famine or plague, exist purely because humanity made them itself and go away if people stop making them.



And to make sure people dont get a wrong idea: I am NOT opposed to inclusion of anything at all - as I said, more options is a good thing for those who pick them and doesnt harm those who dont. Typical win-win situation.

However, I resent the notion that it must be made for political reasons. Games are not a political medium, they are entertainment.

As for......

TommyServo wrote....
Nearly every argument made in favor of inclusive romances can be extended to more diverse representation. At the end of the day, it removes nothing
from the setting for anyone (unless you happen to be offended by
non-white folks in your high fantasy) while greatly enriching the
setting for lots of people who are affected by this issue.

That is certianly true. However, it goes the other way round as well: What harm does it do if there are only white NPCs (for whatever reason)?

Modifié par Tirigon, 11 mai 2012 - 06:41 .

[FKA_Servo]

Tirigon wrote...

Dont have the time to read your responses in detail now, but I will later.

For now, just 2 quick things:
@ TommyServo: I dont blame anyone for wanting inculisveness. I myself have argued for the inclusion of Same Sex content in ME2 and 3, back in the time.
However, what annoys me is if people bring political reasons for it into play. I wanted it not because of some agenda, but because I find choice important in an RPG, and because personally, I prefer playing a lesbain character.

The people in this thread, or at the very least the OP, are advocating for this for personal reasons, from what I can see. That it can quickly turn to a political issue, as I mentioned in my previous post, is unavoidable. Do you feel that your desire to play a lesbian character is more valid than someone else's desire to see a more diverse and representative human environment?

Tirigon wrote...

@ Upsettingshorts: Racism is only a social issue because people like you make an elephant out of every fly; it is not one on a larger scale (even though it used to be - denying that would be stupid indeed).
Most people have long since realized how stupid it is, and the few assh*les who havent are mostly neon@zis and right-wing terrorists, with whom you cant deal with words but only with guns anyways.

To get rid of racism one does not need stupid agendas, one needs to just ignore the issue - sociological problems, much unlike things such as famine or plague, exist purely because humanity made them itself and go away if people stop making them.

I bolded everything that's wrong with this statement. I had to read it twice to make sure, but it turns out that it is just as ignorant and naive as it sounds.

Modifié par TommyServo, 11 mai 2012 - 06:45 .

[FKA_Servo]

Tirigon wrote...

That is certianly true. However, it goes the other way round as well: What harm does it do if there are only white NPCs (for whatever reason)?

If you have to ask this, you haven't read the thread (or if you have, it obviously hasn't made a dent). Beyond that, it betrays the fact that you have no idea whatsoever about the issue at hand.

But... I guess you are so far past racism, it's not even funny guyz.

Modifié par TommyServo, 11 mai 2012 - 06:45 .

[Tirigon]

Reznore57 wrote...

Why get it right ?
Because the all white or all black put people in some form of mental "ghetto" .
Same as female /male and people get stuck in painful social stereotype.
There's an history behind the difference of equality from one people to another.
Take female , their place upon religion evolve from paien myth to mono father figured religion.
The way the female were represented as a concept change and the role of female changed in society.

So when you deal with archetype /stereotype and feed them to the masses , you have a bit of responsability.

Now i'm not saying they have to take that responsability and take a stand.It's a personnal choice after all.

The way I see it, however, forced inclusion is what builds these "mental ghettos" to start with.

As soon as you take special care to include a certain group of people just for the sake of it, you enter a sort of reverse racism. Granted, in the case discussed here it wouldnt be a problem, but there are situations when it is.

For example, many colleges and universities used to have a policy that a certain percentage of students had to be colored. While made from good intentions - traditionally, higher education was available mostly, in past times even exclusively, to whites, and this surely needs change - it led to new problems, such as white people not getting selected even though they had higher qualifications than a black person. I hope I do not need to point out why this is a problem, and courts thought the same, when they deemed the policy unlawful.

In the end, just selecting purely based on qualifications rather than skin color is the better, non-racist policy - even though it led to an underrepresentation of colored people in some areas.

Kinda off topic, I know, but it should highlight why I oppose forced inclusion just for the sake of it.

[Dakota Strider]

Once you start pandering to one group for the sake of political correctness, where do you stop? Everyone will want their special circumstance or agenda to be included. Bioware has already started down that road, and now they are finding that instead of satisfying people, that people just want more and more.

And sadly, political correctness is often used as a weapon. Another word for Political Correctness could easily be Censorship. Because if you do not like the way somebody expresses themselves, you can just flood them with political correct complaints, and force them into silence.

And I believe that the majority of those that use Political Correctness in this manner, are those that wish to bolster a viewpoint or position held by a minority of people. Otherwise, they would just allow the marketplace to take care of their perceived problem. If someone so passionately believes that what a game needs is a certain minority viewpoint, they should go develop and market that game, to that target audience. If they are correct, then they will find out that their game is a huge success. However, I am guessing this does not happen, because even they know, that is not a product that is wanted in large enough quantity to justify creating it.

I would say that people are making a mountain out of a molehill in this regard. But I think that is not accurate, because I do not believe Bioware has even a molehill's worth of fault in regards to this topic. This is more like someone bringing in a wheelbarrow full of...stuff, and dumping it on the ground, and then declaring it is a mountain.

Modifié par Dakota Strider, 11 mai 2012 - 06:55 .

[Tirigon]

TommyServo wrote...

The people in this thread, or at the very least the OP, are advocating for this for personal reasons, from what I can see. That it can quickly turn to a political issue, as I mentioned in my previous post, is unavoidable. Do you feel that your desire to play a lesbian character is more valid than someone else's desire to see a more diverse and representative human environment?

Not at all. But at least I dont try to make a political statement with it.

I am entirely honest: I want the thing because of my own pleasure, not because I think lesbians are discriminated or underrepresented.

I would not mind at all if you would say: "I prefer colored NPCs because of my personal preference".

Tirigon wrote...

@ Upsettingshorts: Racism is only a social issue because people like you make an elephant out of every fly; it is not one on a larger scale (even though it used to be - denying that would be stupid indeed).
Most people have long since realized how stupid it is, and the few assh*les who havent are mostly neon@zis and right-wing terrorists, with whom you cant deal with words but only with guns anyways.

To get rid of racism one does not need stupid agendas, one needs to just ignore the issue - sociological problems, much unlike things such as famine or plague, exist purely because humanity made them itself and go away if people stop making them.

I bolded everything that's wrong with this statement. I had to read it twice to make sure, but it turns out that it is just as ignorant and naive as it sounds.

No, it is the truth of it. Racism is not natural, it is made by people with stupid views and prejudices, and it would end if people got rid of these views and prejudices.

TommyServo wrote...

If you have to ask this, you haven't
read the thread (or if you have, it obviously hasn't made a dent).
Beyond that, it betrays the fact that you have no idea whatsoever about
the issue at hand.

I have indeed not, because it is too long; I generally only read the OP and the most recent posts to which I respond.

That aside, if you were truly interested in a discussion you could explain to me the things you assume I dont understand, instead of insulting me. However you dont, which makes you look like a clueless person who can not accept I have the better arguments.

Modifié par Tirigon, 11 mai 2012 - 06:57 .