217 réponses à ce sujet

[Tirigon]

JustifiablyDefenestrated wrote...

Now, on to your second objection which I interpreted as the fact that game developers don't have a moral obligation to create games where people of different nationalities are represented equally. The best analogy I can think of is this: suppose there is a restaurant that serves coffee and sandwiches  at lunch time. Now suppose that for every caucasian customer that comes through the door, the service is extremely fast, the food is freshly baked, and catered to their specific desires. However, when a non-white person walks through the door, the service is a little less fast and the food, while adequate, is not quite as fresh. There seems to be something intrinsically wrong with this situation, right? Even though the restaurant is a private company, able to make it's own decisions and divorced from any form of official politics, it seems like they should be morally obligated to treat all of their customers equally. If we apply this situation to the example of a game company such as Bioware, it seems that they too should be attempting to provide equal qualities of experiences to all their customers regardless of race. Excluding certain races from the fabric of the universe seems to be a clear example of unequal experiences.

A good point, but a wrong analogy.

A better one would be:
Imagine there is a Restaurant serving Chinese food. To every Chinese who enters, they serve a wide selection of well-cooked, high-qality Chinese food, for a fair prize.

To every non-Chinese who enters they serve the exactly same food with the same quality and prize; However, they do NOT serve other food but Chinese even if the German entering would want to eat Sauerkraut and Weißwurst.

Do you see a problem with that?

[FKA_Servo]

Tirigon wrote...

No, it is the truth of it. Racism is not natural, it is made by people with stupid views and prejudices, and it would end if people got rid of these views and prejudices.

You're correct insofar as racism should be a simple thing to overcome. At it's core, it just requires everyone to embrace their shared humanity and realize our similarities are greater than our differences. Where you're wrong is the idea that we stand on some precipice, with racial equality and tolerance lying just beyond. You're so far wrong, I don't know where to begin. If you don't believe me, well...

Tirigon wrote...

@ Upsettingshorts: Racism is only a social issue because people like you make an elephant out of every fly;
it is not one on a larger scale (even though it used to be - denying that would be stupid indeed).Most people have long since realized how stupid it is, and the few assh*les who havent are mostly neon@zis and right-wing terrorists, with whom you cant deal with words but only with guns anyways.

To get rid of racism one does not need stupid agendas, one needs to just ignore the issue - sociological problems, much unlike things such as famine or plague, exist purely because humanity made them itself and go away if people stop making them.

Would everyone please read what Tirigon has to say on the subject and state your opinion on whether it's accurate?

Tirigon wrote...

I have indeed not, because it is too long; I generally only read the OP and the most recent posts to which I respond.

That aside, if you were truly interested in a discussion you could explain to me the things you assume I dont understand, instead of insulting me. However you dont, which makes you look like a clueless person who can not accept I have the better arguments.

And if you're interested in a discussion, you should read the topic you're replying to at the very least. I will not repeat the reasons you're wrong here because I've touched upon them in several of my posts in this very thread. I talked about it in greater detail in some of my posts from the following thread:

http://social.biowar...8721/1#11028721

The only one who appears clueless here is the one who is choosing to be aggressively uninformed.

Modifié par TommyServo, 11 mai 2012 - 07:20 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

You don't get to do that.

If a social issue exists, checking yourself out of the debate over it because you claim you're beyond it is a disgusting level of arrogance and betrays embarrassing amounts of immaturity. 

How is that not an extraordinary claim?  It's certainly more extraordinary than the evidence you've offered to suppot it (none). 

I hold that there is no such thing as a social issue, as "social" is a meaningless adjective.

Social is defined as "of or relating to society" - but that requires we then demonstrate the existence of society in order for any use of the adjective to be sensical.

[Reznore57]

The thing is having always white people and white people story being shown , it's like black people have no history beyond slavery etc...which is not true.
Somebody talked about the book "Anansi boy " by Neil Gaiman , which i love too.
Protagonist is black but is just your regular english guy , he drinks his tea etc...and the story feature the mythology of Anansi , a african god who really "exist".
Who heard about african mythology ?I mean we have greek/viking myth fed to kids via Dysney ,
I don't watch film a lot anymore but last time i check the only thing i remember , black people =religion= goofy voodoo!
And if i remember correctly voodoo happened after slavery ,so there's a lot of history that left there in some limbo because it's non white...
Same could be told about american indian , they have a lot of myth , but it's harder to have acess to it.

If minorities ain't showed, chances are , their history and culture will be lost .People won't bother study it and in the end everybody lose.

[JustifiablyDefenestrated]

Tirigon wrote...


A good point, but a wrong analogy.

A better one would be:
Imagine there is a Restaurant serving Chinese food. To every Chinese who enters, they serve a wide selection of well-cooked, high-qality Chinese food, for a fair prize.

To every non-Chinese who enters they serve the exactly same food with the same quality and prize; However, they do NOT serve other food but Chinese even if the German entering would want to eat Sauerkraut and Weißwurst.

Do you see a problem with that?

It's a little bit more than just that though. When you play a game, you play it so that you can be immersed in the world with interactivity and choices--in a game like DA or Mass Effect, the world and decisions are shaped around your own personal morality (which in turn is shaped by your own experiences and view-point) and anything that makes you question the integrity of the world, or the validity of the choices is something that has a negative impact on your experience with the game. When you go to a chinese restaraunt, however, you go to immerse yourself in a very specific culture, one that has very little to doesn't depend on your experiences or preferences.

[upsettingshorts]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

How is that not an extraordinary claim?  It's certainly more extraordinary than the evidence you've offered to suppot it (none). 

I hold that there is no such thing as a social issue, as "social" is a meaningless adjective.

Social is defined as "of or relating to society" - but that requires we then demonstrate the existence of society in order for any use of the adjective to be sensical.

Sociology exists, Sylvius.

The entirety of the discipline and two centuries of thought is against you.  It's the height of presumption to dismiss it as casually as you (and this hilariously wrong guy) do.

I don't need to offer the evidence personally, it's out there for anyone not engaging in self-serving, vigorous denial to research for themselves.  Take a class or something.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 11 mai 2012 - 07:25 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Sociology exists, Sylvius.

I recognise that sociologists exist.

I deny that they're measuring what they think their measuring.  They think they're measuring society.  What they're actually measuring is individuals in the aggregate.

But individuals they remain.  To posit the existence of society as an entity unto itself is baseless and, more importantly, unscientific.

The entirety of the discipline and two centuries of thought is against you.  It's the height of presumption to dismiss it as casually as you (and this hilariously wrong guy) do.

I follow the logic wherever it leads.  I encourage you to do the same.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 11 mai 2012 - 07:29 .

[upsettingshorts]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I follow the logic wherever it leads.  I encourage you to do the same.

Nothing else in my experience has led me to doubt the ultimate validity of a strictly logical approach to thought and understanding more than your conclusions.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 11 mai 2012 - 07:31 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

That you're even willing to rely on outcome-based analysis disappoints me.

[FKA_Servo]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

How is that not an extraordinary claim?  It's certainly more extraordinary than the evidence you've offered to suppot it (none). 

I hold that there is no such thing as a social issue, as "social" is a meaningless adjective.

Social is defined as "of or relating to society" - but that requires we then demonstrate the existence of society in order for any use of the adjective to be sensical.

Unless I misunderstand you - we're not specifically talking about the in-game here, we're talking about a meta issue.

It's about the overwhelming lack of diversity in... video games and films, mostly. Popular media like this, with very few exceptions, are overwhelmingly white. Beyond that, they operate under the assumption that anything else won't sell. That's why, for all the potentiality of customizable protagonists, the "face" of Bioware's past two games has been a white guy. If default Shepard were a black woman from the start? Well, who knows, but I suspect that the game wouldn't have made it out of the concept stage without that changing. Companies don't seem to be willing to "risk" advertising a AAA title without emphasizing it's whiteness. It's indicative of an particularly insidious undercurrent of racism that, regardless of what anyone says, is present. Operating within that norm, and under those assumptions, doesn't necessarily make a company racist - but it means they are complicit, certainly, and it just reinforces the status quo.

This is an awful standard that should be dispelled. The only way to dispel it is...to just do it. Bioware broke boundaries with s/s romance. Before, in most games, it would be presented in a ridiculous light, if even touched upon at all. With a little luck, Bioware's example could inspire respectful, realistic treatment in other games.

If you're talking about real world though...and you deny racism as sociological issue that exists...

Well.

Modifié par TommyServo, 11 mai 2012 - 07:46 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Serving racist cutomers in a way they will accept does not make you racist.

Inaction is never morally relevant.

TommyServo wrote...

If you're talking about real world though...and you deny racism as sociological issue that exists...

Well.

In fact, I was denying the existence of any possible sociological issue.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 11 mai 2012 - 07:50 .

[Tirigon]

TommyServo wrote...

You're correct insofar as racism should be a simple thing to overcome. At it's core, it just requires everyone to embrace their shared humanity and realize our similarities are greater than our differences. Where you're wrong is the idea that we stand on some precipice, with racial equality and tolerance lying just beyond. You're so far wrong, I don't know where to begin. If you don't believe me, well...

Even if there is still a long way to go - every journey starts with a single step.

[FKA_Servo]

Tirigon wrote...

TommyServo wrote...

You're correct insofar as racism should be a simple thing to overcome. At it's core, it just requires everyone to embrace their shared humanity and realize our similarities are greater than our differences. Where you're wrong is the idea that we stand on some precipice, with racial equality and tolerance lying just beyond. You're so far wrong, I don't know where to begin. If you don't believe me, well...

Even if there is still a long way to go - every journey starts with a single step.

Arguing that popular media shouldn't encourage a more diverse representation of humanity as a rule is not that single step.

[Tirigon]

JustifiablyDefenestrated wrote...


It's a little bit more than just that though. When you play a game, you play it so that you can be immersed in the world with interactivity and choices--in a game like DA or Mass Effect, the world and decisions are shaped around your own personal morality (which in turn is shaped by your own experiences and view-point) and anything that makes you question the integrity of the world, or the validity of the choices is something that has a negative impact on your experience with the game. When you go to a chinese restaraunt, however, you go to immerse yourself in a very specific culture, one that has very little to doesn't depend on your experiences or preferences.

that is true, but a game can not fulfill every wish. Some things are as they are. DA is set in a medieval Europe background. BioWare might do one set in an African background some time - it would probably be much more awesome, even, because it offers a chance to explore a culture foreign to most of us rather than a cheap LotR-copy - but this is not it.
You sure can complain about it, but it is pointless, just like it would be pointless to complain about a lack of guns and spaceships in DA.

[Maria Caliban]

Tirigon wrote...

A good point, but a wrong analogy.

A better one would be:
Imagine there is a Restaurant serving Chinese food. To every Chinese who enters, they serve a wide selection of well-cooked, high-qality Chinese food, for a fair prize.

To every non-Chinese who enters they serve the exactly same food with the same quality and prize; However, they do NOT serve other food but Chinese even if the German entering would want to eat Sauerkraut and Weißwurst.

Do you see a problem with that?

No.

But the problem isn't a single Chinese restaurant. It's a city where 95% of the restaurants serve Chinese food and only Chinese food.

[Tirigon]

TommyServo wrote...

Arguing that popular media shouldn't encourage a more diverse representation of humanity as a rule is not that single step.

I am not arguing that. I am arguing media should focus on entertaining. If they wish to squeeze in moral lectures that is their business, and their right, but not their obligation.

[Tirigon]

Maria Caliban wrote...


But the problem isn't a single Chinese restaurant. It's a city where 95% of the restaurants serve Chinese food and only Chinese food.

But even that wouldnt be a moral problem.
It would be a problem for those who dont like Chinese food, I grant you that. But each restaurant has a right to choose their food as they wish, and if they choose Chinese that is their business, and you have no right to demand they change their speciality.

Demanding they should serve other food is arrogant, you should open your own restaurant and serve different food, if you want more diversity.

[John Epler]

I think we are sufficiently outside the original scope of the thread that we are done here.