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[The Interloper]

Yeah, the Matrix does not seem like the best trilogy to imitate when it comes to endings.

Also, it's been a while since I saw Reloaded but I don't think the architect scene just came out of the blue like the starchild did. Now if we had no idea we were in the matrix then yeah....

[Unschuld]

The Interloper wrote...

Yeah, the Matrix does not seem like the best trilogy to imitate when it comes to endings.

Also, it's been a while since I saw Reloaded but I don't think the architect scene just came out of the blue like the starchild did. Now if we had no idea we were in the matrix then yeah....

I'd agree, but you can still borrow a theme that was poorly told and rework it in a new story to make it good.... Well, whether Mass Effect succeeded in this aspect is another thing entirely.

[TSA_383]

Unschuld wrote...

The Interloper wrote...

Yeah, the Matrix does not seem like the best trilogy to imitate when it comes to endings.

Also, it's been a while since I saw Reloaded but I don't think the architect scene just came out of the blue like the starchild did. Now if we had no idea we were in the matrix then yeah....

I'd agree, but you can still borrow a theme that was poorly told and rework it in a new story to make it good.... Well, whether Mass Effect succeeded in this aspect is another thing entirely.

To be honest, as much as we all **** now, if they came out tomorrow with an EC that ran along these lines, with some big epic twist and shepard & crew standing against the reapers for a final battle, the fans would worship Bioware as gods.

[Unschuld]

TSA_383 wrote...
To be honest, as much as we all **** now, if they came out tomorrow with an EC that ran along these lines, with some big epic twist and shepard & crew standing against the reapers for a final battle, the fans would worship Bioware as gods.

Unfortunately, I think there's still a lot of people that would still find ways to be bitter about it, and would continue to complain. Some people just enjoy being miserable, I guess.

[dreman9999]

bump.

[Wabajakka]

The ending is a combo of the ending to the 2nd and 3rd Matrix.

It's beyond me why he referenced the 1st Matrix in his notes...

[Trauma3x]

...

[Vox Draco]

TSA_383 wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

End of The First Matrix


If Shepard is successfully fighting off Indoctrination, I can see the parallels...
Shepard is The One...

I wonder how they'd reason Shepard as able to stand against the indoctrination...
Maybe bring back something to do with the Prothean cipher? Or something more recent? Pure willpower?

How about the fact Shepard was already dead once? A little bit too "mystical" maybe, but I also had to think about that little dialogue on the Cerberus base where Shepard was somewhat "shocked" that she was indeed braindead already...maybe being dead had a rather beneficial impact on Shepard...changed her in some way...

But I guess any kind of explanation would fall short of being satisfying for everybody...

[Taboo]

Bill Buskell, a producer, did say that they were influenced by The Matrix.

To me.

On Twitter.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 08 mai 2012 - 09:07 .

[TSA_383]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Bill Buskell, a producer, did say that they were influenced by The Matrix.

To me.

On Twitter.

Heh.
Any chance of a link to the tweet?

[Silhouett3]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Bill Buskell, a producer, did say that they were influenced by The Matrix.

Oh come on, evidently the whole series were also influenced by almost every other major Sci-Fi title out there, including:

Star Trek
Blade Runner
 X-Files
Contact 
The Terminator 
Battlestar Galactica 
Alien
 2001: A Space Odyssey

Modifié par Silhouett3, 08 mai 2012 - 09:31 .

[Taboo]

TSA_383 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Bill Buskell, a producer, did say that they were influenced by The Matrix.

To me.

On Twitter.

Heh.
Any chance of a link to the tweet?

He doesn't tweet much.

It should be easy to find.

[TSA_383]

jzzr1303 wrote...

Good point. But you miss a key one.

The architect never lies, as it is always implied here. Neo actually dies and Trinity dies. If it wasn't for the rebellion of Agent Smith, Zion would have been destroyed too. None of this conditions actually happen in ME 3.

Well, it's not QUITE the same, and we don't know yet whether shepard will do any better out of defying the catalyst than Neo with the architect long-term.
And the architect does lie, he says neo can't make it in time, he does.

MattFini wrote...

This is a good theory and I thoroughly enjoyed the read.

However,
if this *IS* what Walters and Hudson tried to do with the ending of ME3
it feels all the more depressing to me. Ripping off a series of films
that got worse and worse as they went along is a terrible idea, but that
they did this instead of coming up with something more original is even
worse.

ME deserved its own ending, not something borrowed from some hackneyed sci-fi sequels.

However,
does this mean we'll get ME3.5, or an ME3 expansion at some point over
the next year? All would be forgiven if that were the case.

I was kind of assuming at this point that the EC would end up being such a thing, or if not then it would lead on to one...

[Asuka Bianchini]

OP, walter's notes says The end of the FIRST MATRIX. analyze that and You will find more interesting Stuff

[TSA_383]

Ravereth wrote...

TSA_383 wrote...

^Taking from Mac Walters' notes, got me thinking about the things "the matrix" and "brave new world" have in common. If you're unfamiliar with the end of brave new world, it's essentially about a world state in which people are conditioned through constant indoctrination (the traditional kind, not the "magnetic waves, buzzing etc" kind) in order to make them "perfect" citizens and to maintain order. Emotions are discouraged, because without deep emotions, people are told they will not suffer, and everyone has a kind of superficial happiness.

At the end, three of the main characters confront a man known as "The Controller", the core of it is that the people are kept content and controlled, but so much is lost as to make them no longer human. I think you can probably see how this ties in, but it still doesn't really cover where they may be going with this.

I didn't know about this book, but everytime I watched synthesis ending, I couldn't understand why soldiers don't celebrate the victory by waving their weapons in air...

Again, comes back to Shep's last line in ME2:
"I’m going to stop the reapers but I won’t sacrifice the soul of our species to do it."
No "soul"

Asuka Bianchini wrote...

OP, walter's notes says The end of the FIRST MATRIX. analyze that and You will find more interesting Stuff

Let's assume for a second that I'm either:
1-a bit thick
2-not motivated enough to watch the matrix again looking for ME-applicable stuff

Tell me what I'm missing

[NoSpin]

While the notes do say end of the first Matrix, I have to admit that scene with the Architect is pretty much copy/pasted into ME3.

You sir did a fantastic job!

[spotlessvoid]

Bump. Because this thread actually makes sense.

[DoomsdayDevice]

Lifted from another thread, because relevant:

TSA_383 wrote...

I was just thinking over these notes made by mac walters:

http://imageshack.us...5/33611897.jpg/

The whole thing is rather interesting for me, but the most interesting part for me is
"Endings - how do they feel?"
"brave new world + end of the first matrix".

There's a common theme here. The first matrix (as in, the 1st matrix to exist in the story, rather than the first movie) was an idyllic, perfect world. It failed because the people rebelled against the illusion (as it lacked pain and the chaos of human emotions) and the harvest was spoiled.

In Brave New World, there is an idyllic society in which everyone is conditioned to believe they are happy, and to live productive lives not really realising that they're serving the ends of their masters. The main character rebels
against this superficially "perfect" world, as it lacks pain and the chaos of human emotions.

Do you see where I'm going with this? The endings are supposed to feel suspiciously, superficially perfect, they're supposed to feel like an illusion, and they're supposed to inspire speculation as a result. This was always planned, right back from 2010 when that early plan was drawn up.

Tah ****ing Dah.

And this:

ZerebusPrime wrote...

End of the first matrix...

The first matrix failed because there was no "choice" allowed, IIRC. So the machines added the illusion of choice.

And underlying the illusion was a real choice: to accept the Matrix or to rebel against the machines' solution..

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 05 novembre 2012 - 07:54 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Holy necro post.

Unfortunately his/her LI will start to put her name on the memorial wall, and hesitate, the ship will take off, and Shepard will take that breath in the pile of garbage and we will have to head canon the ending for all eternity. So sayeth the lords of Bioware.

So if you want closure you need to just die.

I did forget to mention that the ending from the blast onward is a boss fight against indoctrination.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 05 novembre 2012 - 07:56 .

[spotlessvoid]

Exactly DD. Off topic, but can we add "the Reapers are innocent" thread to the IT quotes list? Ha

[His Name was HYR!!]

Still don't see how the Matrix thing disproves face-value interpretation.

[spotlessvoid]

Why do you people cling to every last thing as if it somehow definitively proves or disproves anything? It's speculating on the meaning of something that was obviously intentionally placed in Final Hours app to throw out some hints. What TSA says makes a lot of sense

[KingZayd]

2484Stryker wrote...

TSA_383 wrote...

2484Stryker wrote...

I think a distinction needs to be made here. Neo choosing to leave the Source and to save Trinity is tantamount to him rejecting the Architect, whereas Shepard choosing the destroy option (killing all synthetics, including Geth & EDI) is more akin to accepting the logic of the Catalyst - i.e. that Synthetics will always destroy Organics.

Just because the Matrix did it, doesn't mean ME3's ending wasn't broken.

Not quite - The Catalyst warns you that choosing Destroy will lead to "Chaos" as future generations of organics will build new synthetic life. By taking that route anyway, Shepard rejects the logic of the Catalyst.

You've got a point, I suppose.  But my impression is that by choosing to destroy all "existing" synthetics (good & bad), Shepard is at least partially agreeable to the Catalyst's reasoning.

I suppose the argument could be made that Shepard made the choice simply because he has no other viable choices and that he's willingly sacrificing the current synthetics just so that the Reaper threat could be ended.  Unfortunately, the lack of dialogue & challenge during the ending doesn't shed enough light on the matter.

He's choosing to destroy the Reapers as history shows that Reapers will always destroy Organics (and also non-Organics). The Synthetics are an unfortunate casualty. He rejects the Starchild's reasoning, and decides that no "solution" to the "synthetic problem" is necessary.

[Ithurael]

TSA_383 wrote...

Not quite - The Catalyst warns you that choosing Destroy will lead to "Chaos" as future generations of organics will build new synthetic life. By taking that route anyway, Shepard rejects the logic of the Catalyst.

Wouldn't the refuse ending be the ultimate reject of the catalyst logic?

Destroy fits with 'synthetics and organics will always be in conflict'
Control does not support his logic but provides a buffer just in case synthetics come to destroy organics
Synthesis...I really hate this ending...

To me, it seems that refuse is the ultimate rejection of everything the catalyst is talking about, hell even to get this ending you can say "I Reject These Choices" or you can shoot him.

Refuse ending is the true way to break indoctrination as it wasn't even an option presented  by starkid you have to earn it.