36 réponses à ce sujet

[esper]

Of course we don't know how they are going to make the next dragon age game, but since we are posting wishing lists right now I would like to discuss the tactics. By tactics I specifically means the slots we fill in with commands so our companions and/or pc doesn't just stand and glare into the air when we doesn't have direct control. Th
 
This is to make a wish list because I am pretty sure all of you at some point have thought why is the options to do that specfic thing not there. This is not for all other combat dicussion nor for discussing action/turnbased gameplay. It is solely for those pesky little tactics.

Group health: 

It was nice that there existed a group less than 50 % option, to allow spirit healer/anders to slip into healing mode and to have a command to use, but I would also have like a group health less than 75% and 25 %, not to meantion a group health above 50, 75, 25 to signal the spirit healer to go out of healing mode.

Range:
Now there was a short, mid and long range in da2 but I couldn't get it to work like I wanted and I think it was because it was tagert: shot, mid and long range which as far as I understand means that the enemy had to already be a target of the companion/pc. I wish for an enemy: short, mid and long range which would have the companion react which the talent mode as long as an enemy was in either range.

Targeting enemies: Since da2 clearly had enemy types categories I wish that we could target those type and categories more specific as it were if we wanted to target assassin and only assassin with a talent we had to go rouge in one target slot and elite in another, I guess I wish for an enemy:assassin (example, I might be enemy:healer for mages for example) or an enemy:rouge (elite) if we keep the elite system.

Threath management. 
Now I noticed that if I had the computer set Isabella's tactics she had a ally:surrounded by enemies tactic, but it always disappeared when I tried to use it. Therefor I wish that just like we have the companion surrounded by x number of enemies tactic, just like we have the self surrounded by x number of enemies. It would really help coming to those fragile glass cannon mages aid.

Number of tactic slots: 
Mages and to some degree rouges need more than 20 since many tactics take more than one slot to set up. Even give us an unlimited/much higher number or  at least make sure we keep getting them every three leves and don't stop at 20. Another thing could be to have it possible to jump between sheets: The computer already generate a healing, support, damage , custom sheet for mages for example it would nice if it was possible to set up a sheet for healing, damage support and then have a jump command that could change which sheet the characther is using. As long as we have a restore default tactics bottom I can't see how the player can mess up too much since we can always go back to the computer generated. 

This was on top of my head my wishes for now. Feel free to come with your wishes, but don't let this degenerate into a discussion about action vs. strategic. This thread is solely for discussing the tactic slots.

[Wulfram]

What I'd like are some tactics that stop me having to put in every power individually, but instead give them by type of talent.

Like being able to simply tell the squadmate to use AoE powers if the enemy is clustered, rather than having to go through Fireball, Firestorm, Chain Lightning etc individually.

[Firky]

I didn't use tactics at all. In fact, it took me ages to figure out how to turn them all off. (Edit: Also behaviours.)

I'm not averse to tactics, but when I'd set up everyone to respond to a stagger combo, for example, the stagger was gone by the time anyone did anything. It's quite possible I'd set them up incorrectly, though. I'd just like to know how to make them work.

Modifié par Firky, 08 mai 2012 - 10:03 .

[Sidney]

Firky wrote...

I didn't use tactics at all. In fact, it took me ages to figure out how to turn them all off. (Edit: Also behaviours.)

I'm not averse to tactics, but when I'd set up everyone to respond to a stagger combo, for example, the stagger was gone by the time anyone did anything. It's quite possible I'd set them up incorrectly, though. I'd just like to know how to make them work.

I used them extensively because it really let my mages, in particular, focus on doing mage-ish things while other did their job. I find the tactics much less useful when I'm not the mage because casting requires more thought than the rest of the classes. They're really good for making sure people aren't doing nothing and that they'll auto-heal in particular.

I think some more modifiers would be nice - "only" for example so that you are sure to have a power ready for a combo. Also some way to reserve manna/staminia. One issue if you use tactics is that people will blow through all their powers amazingly fast and thus you might get one combo but not two in a fight.

[Dakota Strider]

When I have spoken about the need for more strategy and tactics in the Dragon Age game in other threads, I had totally forgotten about the "tactic slots" which I also turned off, so I could micromanage my party.

I think of tactics as the ability to make decisions within a combat, in which the scenario is always changing. I think the "tactic slots" would be better labelled as "strategy slots", because a strategy is something that you can plan in advance. However, strategy has to be flexible, because things almost always happen in combat that you cannot plan for. Thus tactics take over, in which you adapt and improvise with the talents and resources you have available to overcome whatever unexpected obstacle is presented.

Modifié par Dakota Strider, 08 mai 2012 - 02:12 .

[MichaelStuart]

I could never get Tactics to work the way I wanted.
Every time I use tactics my companions got surrounded and killed, so I would like to give a flee tactic if surrounded or fighting certain enemies.

Modifié par MichaelStuart, 08 mai 2012 - 03:31 .

[deuce985]

Yea...DA definitely needs more tactic slots+commands.

Why do I have to be surrounded by more than one enemy to input a command? Little things like that are annoying in the tactics.

I think maybe Bioware devs don't get too "complex" with their tactics because it would make the game easier? Because I know when I take the time to shuffle the tactics right on my companions, especially on Nightmare, it does make a huge world of difference.

[devSin]

Although I like the tactics system, I wish there were more general options. Rather than just having a generic group of predefined tactics, I wish there were also toggles for allowing or preventing activation of sustainable talents (so they won't just flip everything on and kill their mana pool, even if such abilities are set up in the tactics) and for using consumables (so I don't have to waste tactics slot for common potion use).

[Merlex]

Some great ideas on this thread. I like to add some of my pet peeves about tactics.

1. Why is no Stun status?

2. There should be a tactic: Ally (or specific party member): surrounded by  x number of enemies- do y (fatiguing fog, ect.).

3. Status on clusters at least x number (Staggers, Disorients, Brittles), would be very useful for Chain Lightnings, Walking Bombs, Archer's Lance and such.

4. Scatter is an AOL, yet i can't target a cluster, with tactics. Shield Bash hitting a cluster as well.

5. Enemy ranks should be built in. This would allow more fine tuning.

6. When i bought the game i had more than twenty tactic slots (pc), after i patched they went away. I understand that some features that can go on PCs can't go on Console games. But my gaming platform is PC, why should i be punished. I would gladly pay a little more for the PC version, if it had more features.

Modifié par Merlex, 20 juin 2012 - 01:50 .

[Kidd]

I want tactics to move. Like
Self:Surrounded by enemies:Move away
Self:Surrounded by enemies:Move toward [companion]
Self:Enemy at long range:Move toward enemy

The bottom tactic isn't as important, but I know some people want Merrill to join in melee etc.

Merlex wrote...

6. When i bought the game i had more than twenty tactic slots (pc), after i patched they went away. I understand that some features that can go on PCs can't go on Console games. But my gaming platform is PC, why should i be punished. I would gladly pay a little more for the PC version, if it had more features.

Are you sure you didn't just check out the tactics menu for the first time when you were pretty late into the game, and then after the patch you were on a new game? You unlock more tactics slots as you level (a feature I really don't understand, just give us all of them at once). Consoles also have tons of tactics slots toward the end.

[Merlex]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

I want tactics to move. Like
Self:Surrounded by enemies:Move away
Self:Surrounded by enemies:Move toward [companion]
Self:Enemy at long range:Move toward enemy

The bottom tactic isn't as important, but I know some people want Merrill to join in melee etc.

Merlex wrote...

6. When i bought the game i had more than twenty tactic slots (pc), after i patched they went away. I understand that some features that can go on PCs can't go on Console games. But my gaming platform is PC, why should i be punished. I would gladly pay a little more for the PC version, if it had more features.

Are you sure you didn't just check out the tactics menu for the first time when you were pretty late into the game, and then after the patch you were on a new game? You unlock more tactics slots as you level (a feature I really don't understand, just give us all of them at once). Consoles also have tons of tactics slots toward the end.

I'm sure. I've finished the game twice (reached 25th and 30th levels), and numerous partials, only 20 tactic slots. It even changed it in the playthrough i was on at the time. I think it was patch 1.02. When i patched, i took both 1.01, and 1.02 at the same time (1.03 wasn't out then). One of them also change the Bloodmagic conversion rate. I really got to read patches before installing them, doh.

Recently for my current playthrough, i downloaded a mod from Nexus that increases it from 20 to 50. But i'd prefer not to use it. The more mods, the more possible conflicts. And it gives you all the slots at the beginning. 

Having tactics that move characters, is a great idea. You gave me another idea. Enemy: Brittle- select next target. Saving the Mage or whatever, from disrupting the CCC. This would work even better with Stagger. You can go along Staggering enemy after enemy.  

Modifié par Merlex, 20 juin 2012 - 05:59 .

[Androme]

 Unlimited tactic slots, I don't see why not. There is no reason to limit this imho.

it could work like this:

[ADD TACTIC SLOT]

*click*

[TACTIC SLOT #22: EMPTY]

you get the idea, you can just click the add tactic slot thingie whenever you need a new one.

Modifié par Androme, 20 juin 2012 - 06:11 .

[bEVEsthda]

I'd like to present the, apparently very individual and novel, opinion, that these tactic slots, this DIY- AI-programming represents a direction that the gameplay should never have taken.

[deuce985]

bEVEsthda wrote...

I'd like to present the, apparently very individual and novel, opinion, that these tactic slots, this DIY- AI-programming represents a direction that the gameplay should never have taken.

What would you propose then?

It's a party game and Bioware doesn't remove individual control over characters. You can control who you want. The tactics system is fine, it just needs a little tweaking.

If they removed the tactics system, you'd have less control over the actions of your companions. In my experience, games that do this, do not pan out well. Persona 3 is a great example. You want a heal but they won't heal. At least you can program the AI how you want with a tactics system.

They can't let AI judge abilities for themselves like Mass Effect because Dragon Age is far more complex. The AI would end up likely pissing you off more than anything.

Otherwise, the only alternative is a turn-based system? No thanks to that.

Modifié par deuce985, 20 juin 2012 - 07:47 .

[bEVEsthda]

deuce985 wrote...
What would you propose then?

It's a party game and Bioware doesn't remove individual control over characters. You can control who you want. The tactics system is fine, it just needs a little tweaking.

If they removed the tactics system, you'd have less control over the actions of your companions. In my experience, games that do this, do not pan out well. Persona 3 is a great example. You want a heal but they won't heal. At least you can program the AI how you want with a tactics system.

They can't let AI judge abilities for themselves like Mass Effect because Dragon Age is far more complex. The AI would end up likely pissing you off more than anything.

Otherwise, the only alternative is a turn-based system? No thanks to that.

First of all, that tactic slots system is turn-based. Automated turn-based. The system evolved from having a turnbased system which people tried to make seem like RTS, by removing relevant pauses. The problem then is to have the characters do something sensible and not just be standing or be distracted by stupid defaults. That is not all the problem though, there is also the part that it need to be some kind of gameplay to do, for the player.

Thing here is that someone feels micromanagement need to be removed. I can sympathize with that notion, but by my experience, I feel everytime a game's micromanagement becomes automated, the game loses much of its soul, even becomes irrelevant. There must be a better way.

I can imagine quite a lot of alternatives (of course: I only imagine them on the PC, and PC mouse/keyboard interface). Having people understand them seem quite a task though (or they're just completely disinterested?). I have tried to do that, previously. Now I'm tired.

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 20 juin 2012 - 09:51 .

[Merlex]

sorry double post.

Modifié par Merlex, 20 juin 2012 - 10:27 .

[Merlex]

bEVEsthda wrote...

deuce985 wrote...
What would you propose then?

It's a party game and Bioware doesn't remove individual control over characters. You can control who you want. The tactics system is fine, it just needs a little tweaking.

If they removed the tactics system, you'd have less control over the actions of your companions. In my experience, games that do this, do not pan out well. Persona 3 is a great example. You want a heal but they won't heal. At least you can program the AI how you want with a tactics system.

They can't let AI judge abilities for themselves like Mass Effect because Dragon Age is far more complex. The AI would end up likely pissing you off more than anything.

Otherwise, the only alternative is a turn-based system? No thanks to that.

First of all, that tactic slots system is turn-based. Automated turn-based. The system evolved from having a turnbased system which people tried to make seem like RTS, by removing relevant pauses. The problem then is to have the characters do something sensible and not just be standing or be distracted by stupid defaults. That is not all the problem though, there is also the part that it need to be some kind of gameplay to do, for the player.

Thing here is that someone feels micromanagement need to be removed. I can sympathize with that notion, but by my experience, I feel everytime a game's micromanagement becomes automated, the game loses much of its soul, even becomes irrelevant. There must be a better way.

I can imagine quite a lot of alternatives (of course: I only imagine them on the PC, and PC mouse/keyboard interface). Having people understand them seem quite a task though (or they're just completely disinterested?). I have tried to do that, previously. Now I'm tired.

I understand where you are coming from. I'm old timer. I like micromanaging games. I even micromanage some parts of da2. I keymap most functions to my G-pad (i'm a lefty), because i hate point and click.

But with CCCs, tactics are needed. Especially with the current gamespeed. I still use pause a lot, position (well try to) the characters, and fire off their opening moves. But while Varric and my S&S Reaver are busy trying to set up a Fog / Disperse, i'd like Aveline and Isabela take on elites with Stagger/ Fang. I can't play all four all the time.

Modifié par Merlex, 20 juin 2012 - 10:26 .

[deuce985]

The only thing I think they really need to tweak in the Tactics system is plenty more commands and more slots.

DA:O was almost unplayable for me without advanced tactics. Bioware's script lines for AI was incredibly limited. It was far improved in DA2 but it needs to go further. Some AI scripting makes no sense. Surrounded by two? Why not one enemy?

Technically, you're not surrounded by one enemy but they don't have another command in the tactics that's similar. Nearest enemy doesn't exactly always work like you want.

Or enemy types. "being attacked by ranged/melee". Why isn't there a tactic for being attacked by magic/melee/ranged...all three types...

[PsychoBlonde]

esper wrote...

This is to make a wish list because I am pretty sure all of you at some point have thought why is the options to do that specfic thing not there. This is not for all other combat dicussion nor for discussing action/turnbased gameplay. It is solely for those pesky little tactics.

I want 2 weapon sets back.  I also want to be able to assign a tactics list to each weapon, so you can fairly quickly switch a party member from one operating mode to another just by switching their weapon set.  I also want ranged weapons for all classes to go along with this.

I want an option for "combat over" and "combat begins".

I want a "turn off ALL modes" option.

I want options for "if I'm missing a lot" or "if I'm doing no damage"

And I'd REALLY REALLY LOVE an option for "Stay within X feet of PC"

And an option for (or just have this BUILT INTO THE AI) "If I'm standing in an AOE Damage-over-time effect, GTFO!!!!"

[PsychoBlonde]

Merlex wrote...

But with CCCs, tactics are needed. Especially with the current gamespeed. I still use pause a lot, position (well try to) the characters, and fire off their opening moves. But while Varric and my S&S Reaver are busy trying to set up a Fog / Disperse, i'd like Aveline and Isabela take on elites with Stagger/ Fang. I can't play all four all the time.

Indeed.  I would love a system where you had a "universal" quickbar and could put abilities from all 4 characters on it, to be able to fire them off at speed without switching and reorienting.

I'd also love it if you could create macros/modes for different characters and assign THOSE to a quickbar slot.

I'd also love a few different movement modes aside from "stay put" and "run all over the freakin' place at will".  The end fight of Legacy would have been a billion times better if there was some kind of "follow in my footsteps" option.

[Jones7602]

Simply enough: A tactic which let the NPCs move out of the way of a special attack, like a charging wyvern :-)

[Kidd]

bEVEsthda wrote...

I'd like to present the, apparently very individual and novel, opinion, that these tactic slots, this DIY- AI-programming represents a direction that the gameplay should never have taken.

I do not agree. It is a quick abstraction of pre-fight planning - "Merrill, whenever I smash some one's head with my shield, use that opening to blast the enemy with your chain lightning spell. Aveline, if you draw too much attention and get surrounded, fall into a full defensive pose until we can clear the enemies off you" etc.

It simulates a real P&P RPG session where characters react off each other, yet you only focus on what you're doing with your own character at any given time. The other characters are, after all, NPCs and can only be commanded by you because no AI is perfect.

[AkiKishi]

Firky wrote...

I didn't use tactics at all. In fact, it took me ages to figure out how to turn them all off. (Edit: Also behaviours.)

I'm not averse to tactics, but when I'd set up everyone to respond to a stagger combo, for example, the stagger was gone by the time anyone did anything. It's quite possible I'd set them up incorrectly, though. I'd just like to know how to make them work.

Put the react on state at the top of the AI list. Same with anything like healing at 50%. You want the AI to break off whatever it might be doing and do that instead. If you put it down the list, then the AI will do those things and by that time the CCC state will have gone.

DA/2's AI program is pretty much identical to FFXII's so I found it very easy to get into.

[AkiKishi]

bEVEsthda wrote...

I'd like to present the, apparently very individual and novel, opinion, that these tactic slots, this DIY- AI-programming represents a direction that the gameplay should never have taken.

It was the same going back to BG. The only real difference is that writing AI scripts was a lot more involved.
Micromanging is fine if you need to do it. In DA I need to do it about 10% of the time, removing AI scripting would make that 90% extremely tedious. I don't care how the party does things, I only care that they get done.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 21 juin 2012 - 11:24 .

[robertthebard]

BobSmith101 wrote...

bEVEsthda wrote...

I'd like to present the, apparently very individual and novel, opinion, that these tactic slots, this DIY- AI-programming represents a direction that the gameplay should never have taken.

It was the same going back to BG. The only real difference is that writing AI scripts was a lot more involved.
Micromanging is fine if you need to do it. In DA I need to do it about 10% of the time, removing AI scripting would make that 90% extremely tedious. I don't care how the party does things, I only care that they get done.

My first thought was "Gee, they've been doing things like this since Baldur's Gate, if to a lesser degree".  It is very definitely not a new trend, it is, however, getting more and more refined every time it comes up.  It works much better for me than {Pause} Issue commands to all party members{/pause} only to find out that half of them forgot what they were supposed to do, so {pause} reissue{/pause} until they get it right.