56 réponses à ce sujet

[Whale]

Asdara wrote...

You'd think that Bioware/EA would have some clue as to female motivations for playing their product as avidly as we do might have something to do with the potential for character interaction and specifically romances.

Look, you might be right statistically, but let's please not try to support the stereotype that women play ME just for the :wub:relationships:wub:. Some people get really involved in the romantic subplots. Some people enjoy the character interactions in general. Some people like charging brutes. Operational word being people. For every turian-lovin' lady I promise I can find you a Tali fanboy of equally obsessive dedication.

[Sugarjaye]

Whale wrote...

Asdara wrote...

You'd think that Bioware/EA would have some clue as to female motivations for playing their product as avidly as we do might have something to do with the potential for character interaction and specifically romances.

Look, you might be right statistically, but let's please not try to support the stereotype that women play ME just for the :wub:relationships:wub:. Some people get really involved in the romantic subplots. Some people enjoy the character interactions in general. Some people like charging brutes. Operational word being people. For every turian-lovin' lady I promise I can find you a Tali fanboy of equally obsessive dedication.

Very true....

[Asdara]

Whale wrote...

Asdara wrote...

You'd think that Bioware/EA would have some clue as to female motivations for playing their product as avidly as we do might have something to do with the potential for character interaction and specifically romances.

Look, you might be right statistically, but let's please not try to support the stereotype that women play ME just for the :wub:relationships:wub:. Some people get really involved in the romantic subplots. Some people enjoy the character interactions in general. Some people like charging brutes. Operational word being people. For every turian-lovin' lady I promise I can find you a Tali fanboy of equally obsessive dedication.

Totally agree, stereotypes are bad.  I'm a lady, I play for the story, the characters, the romance, the ability to slay dragons in the most bad-ass way I can by jumping up on their head and stabbing their face (oh wait, that's the other game), saving the galaxy and laying the smackdown on the reapers - and all the rest.  

Thing is, I'm sure there is data collection about players - linked no doubt to our handy profiles - of what we do and I am of the opinion that data would point to the desire for more romantic options - at least even romantic options.  

I think, in contrast, the configuration we have now with the Femshep romances available assumes male players playing Femshelps and wanting to indulge in some girl-girl more than girl-boy pairing - which is a really offensive assumption to all parties involved in my opinon.  I do not think that EA/Bioware (based on the fuller body of evidence) is so very enlightened that they just wanted to supply a variety of lesbian relationships for the percentage of their players who are female homosexuals.  

And I am sick to death of being marginalized as a female player and then told I'm really being quite catered to if I only understood what was happening.  I can't decide what's more insulting - game developers who blatently ignore my existance or game developers who pretend to acknowledge me and using that pretended nod to deliver more (stereotypical, I might add) male player catering.  

No, I don't get up on this high horse very often, but I'm lacking in the sleep department during finals week so... I hope that was at least coherent... 

[almondroy]

I would think it'd be a very easy patch to toggle whatever flags make ME2 romance of Garrus a prerequisite for an ME3 relationship with Garrus to OFF so new players who haven't played ME2 and/or existing Fem!Shep players don't get friend-zoned. That would go a long way toward addressing this issue for Fem!Shep players.

[SilentK]

Asdara wrote...

Totally agree, stereotypes are bad.  I'm a lady, I play for the story, the characters, the romance, the ability to slay dragons in the most bad-ass way I can by jumping up on their head and stabbing their face (oh wait, that's the other game), saving the galaxy and laying the smackdown on the reapers - and all the rest.  

Thing is, I'm sure there is data collection about players - linked no doubt to our handy profiles - of what we do and I am of the opinion that data would point to the desire for more romantic options - at least even romantic options.  

I think, in contrast, the configuration we have now with the Femshep romances available assumes male players playing Femshelps and wanting to indulge in some girl-girl more than girl-boy pairing - which is a really offensive assumption to all parties involved in my opinon.  I do not think that EA/Bioware (based on the fuller body of evidence) is so very enlightened that they just wanted to supply a variety of lesbian relationships for the percentage of their players who are female homosexuals.  

And I am sick to death of being marginalized as a female player and then told I'm really being quite catered to if I only understood what was happening.  I can't decide what's more insulting - game developers who blatently ignore my existance or game developers who pretend to acknowledge me and using that pretended nod to deliver more (stereotypical, I might add) male player catering.  

No, I don't get up on this high horse very often, but I'm lacking in the sleep department during finals week so... I hope that was at least coherent... 

Another female FemShep-player here. Hmm... I do think that they have put a lot of work into the Kaidan-romance, Garrus-romance and I personally really loved the romance with Traynor. She is a great person, funny and charming, would love to have more time with her. Kaidan feels a bit more lively on the Normandy than Ash unless I'm mistaken. He has more interaction with the crew. We FemShep players get Garrus even before Tuchanka, BroShep has to wait quite a bit for Tali. So for me the word marginalized is too harsh, we have many good things.

It feels almost digital as far as love for FemShep goes. Kaidan, Garrus, Traynor and Liara were pretty much 9-8/10 for me. But then we have Thane and Jacob on the other side of the scale. Liara and Kaidan is equally great for BroShep I would guess, Ash has a really good romance from what I've heard but the guys miss her friendly side on the ship. Then Miranda, Cortez and Tali with Jack getting the least content. FemShep has very few guys, and it's either a hit or miss as far as romance goes. BroShep has a scale from Liara to Jack, but at least he always get some kind of romance with his prevous LI:s. It's really confusing how they handeled the romances in this game.

So, I think the messed up quite badly, I fully agree on that. Liara in the first game and then two extra female light LI:s.

ME: Liara as feminin LI for both Shepards
ME2:Liara, Kelly as feminin LI:s for both Shepards
ME3: Liara, Kelly, Chobot as feminin LI:s for both Shepards + removal of two male LI:s

Hmm... guess I'm just leaning towards it being a really stupid mistake, that they didn't look at how it would add up. I am however very interested in seeing if they will do something to even out the odds a bit. More interaction with Thane? Possibility to win back Jacob? New scene in which you can romance Vega? Or someone new for a romantic fling a la Chobot? If nothing is done about this apparent lack of males I will be very sad. But I'm willing to give them a chance to sort it out with dlc just because how good I found Kaidan, Garrus, Liara and Traynor.

[jeweledleah]

BatmanPWNS wrote...

Except romance and not being able to get a punch from Vega (Double standard), FemShep gets the same stuff MaleShep (Sheploo is just the main default face for Shepard)

heh?  my femshep got punched when I didn't take the interupt. had a bloody lip and everything.

that said - story is exactly the same with a few extras (as far as i know, mostly in Tuchanka related dialogues, with Wrex and Eve)  Romances... weeeelll...  not as many choices as maleshep.. but romances in general, in ME3 were... well, there were issues. mostly that had to do with how romances were locked in and how potential romantic partners reacted.  it was all far too binary and if you switched partners, complete erasure of prior relationships was IMO sloppily done.

[swordmalice]

CptData wrote...

Well, at least romantic-wise, BW basically tells the player:

"You're playing fem!Shep? You're doing it wrong."

I don't play fem!Shep, but definitely support Vega as straight LI for fem!Sheps. Seriously - in worst case you only have Garrus left. If he survived ME2 (which seems to be the default decision if you start a new game in ME3) - and if you romanced him.
Kaidan? Can die on Virmire.
Jacob? Cheats on you.
Thane? Dies.

I'm a dude and I feel bad for the girls playing ME. Not every girl is into lesbian sex ...

This. I have no idea why BioWare did this to femShep. I also tend to play maleShep but I do have a femShep file, and I am all for equality here; I can't tell you how many of my female friends who play this game were upset at the way their chosen romances were handled (2 Thane, 1 Jacob if anyone's interested). For every step forward we take in gaming to treat the fairer sex with respect, we take two backwards and I definitely take BioWare to task on this one. As a result, I have no motivation whatsoever to play FemShep in 3 just because there will be no variation.

[Armdin]

FemShep's really did take a beating in ME3 in the romance department. It's such a shame because they went to so much effort to include FemShep prior to game release - giving her a whole new and muchly appreciated look, trailers, reversible box-art cover - only to shaft her in-game in such a crucial place.

That being said, Garrus' romance was really top. If you discount Liara's romance (purely because MaleShep and FemShep can both romance her) then Garrus is indeed the best looked after relationship of them all, including MaleSheps. Tali's was amazing but she just appears too late in ME3. Garrus, if you set yourself to it, we can grab right from the start of recruitment. So while it doesn't make the whole FemSheps-crappy-relationship options entirely forgivable, it's manageable.

Unless you don't like Garrus

[Sugarjaye]

I think that something they could do to help would be to at least make James a romance opttion. I was so suprised and upset when i found out that after all that fun delicious flirting it just went no where.

[Asdara]

I will be honest - I never liked Jacob. The primary reason was that any time any of my femSheps went to talk to him he acted like she was trying to climb his leg. That bothered me. It was okay (to a point...) when I was angling for a romance with him, but there just wasn't a "friend" option with him - I felt - I could either chase him in romance (and he really does make me feel like I'm hunting the poor guy down) or ignore him completely after the "welcome to the ship/glad things are good with your dad" dialog.

I was expecting Thane to die, and even though I support those who are seeking improvement of his romance on many levels, I was pleasantly surprised to even see him feature as much as he did.  I liked that I could feel like he would want me to move on to someone else after he was gone and get a clean slate but that I could also remain faithful to a memory - not sure if that pans in the pre-conflict moments though, because I haven't done that permutation (had to check out Kaiden first playthrough and imported non-romanced Thane Shep on my second)

Garrus - I romanced once and lost the game. Issues with ME3 ending have been a downer on re-doing my Garrus love game in ME2 to import, but hopefully that will get resolved soon and then maybe I can get in on that goodness.

I'm not someone who likes romancing the ladies as a lady. I'm totally cool with the option and big love to everyone who is getting what they want from that, because we all need love - it's just not something that works with my inner story that I spin myself in my play.

So that's left me with... Kaiden x 2 games. He's good. He could be better though - especially with only ME2 import (don't know if ME1 carry over gives more?) I loved what I got, but I felt like for being the "long term" relationship option (ME2 on PS3 allows you to comic choice a romance with him in "ME1") he didn't have as deep a connection with femShep as I would have expected. Maybe one more dinner... or something. It felt like new love, not reconnection. I guess that's what I'm trying to say. I do absolutely adore him for the wrist-kiss at the cafe though, that was a spot-on melting moment.

I feel like James could be interesting - it would be a "new love" feel again, and I could see why the devs maybe didn't want to offer that this late in the developing story... then again, some people might have been all about the mission until the bitter end and open to a new thing - and there are new things available in other forms (Traynor springs to mind).

As far as other differences for the femShep I've been thinking and no other really come to mind. I do think that the voice acting for her is more emotive than for the manShep. I thought that repeatedly through watching my fiance play. Not saying better per se, just more emotion is carried in the timbre of the voice acting on normal line delivery in comparison, where that seems to feature for manShep only in critical dialog delivery/CS. So we got that going for us I suppose.

Modifié par Asdara, 11 mai 2012 - 02:59 .

[Sugarjaye]

I still keep coming back to the hunky missed opportunity that is James.

[TonyTitan]

FemShep threw the 'rank' card around on James to much, IMO, to even 'think' she wanted any sort of romance with him. And after he fumbled his words all around on the Citadel while he got he N7 tattoo...I REALLY lost any type of 'desire' for him to have a 'romance' with. He came off very 'teenagerish' in that scene. (No offense to teenagers....I'm 46 so it just reminded me of days gone wayyyy by.) lol

[Sugarjaye]

I just thought he was the right mix of sweet and sexy all rolled into one nice package....

[swordmalice]

Sugarjaye wrote...

I just thought he was the right mix of sweet and sexy all rolled into one nice package....

Man, I really hope BioWare does something in the romance department for James. Seeing all this support for him really drives the point home that this is something a lot of the female players want and despite being male I totally support it. James is a cool guy, no reason why he can't be all over FemShep. It's bad enough what they did to Jacob and Thane, you ladies deserve something more.

With regards to the whole sterotyping issue, it really does need to be addressed on the game developer's side. When I found out what romances were available to FemShep I couldn't help wondering if the developers were thinking "Hmm, lotsa straight dudes play ME, way more than girls; I think we should give FemShep more lesbian options cause well, that's what these guys like, right?" Um, no. My one FemShep file, romanced Kaiden and then Garrus. In 3, she plans on sticking with her calibrating turian thankyouverymuch. I'm straight, male and have no desire to play out a lesbian romance with her; not because I find anything wrong with it, but because I prefer roleplaying a character similar to my perspectives as it gives me something I can relate to (in that both myself and my FemShep are straight). I'm sure I'm not the only male with this line of thinking, either.
Maybe it was a resource issue? Rushed development? Whatever is was, it sucked. Plain and simple. Let's hope something happens in the way of DLC.

Modifié par swordmalice, 11 mai 2012 - 04:25 .

[Wulfram]

If Vega became an actual LI, then they'd really need to do something about the automatic flirting going on. The only thing that makes it sort of tolerable because it's clearly not serious.

Adding the prospect of genuine romance would make it all very uncomfortable.

[Asdara]

Yes. There are definitely some "chain of command" issues with Vega that are more uncomfortable than those associated more loosely with Kaiden - mainly I think because Kaiden has been off the crew / you were dead / Cerberus affiliation / he has equal rank of independent status as a Spectre. James has none of those things. He's an in-same-military-structure subordinate, and that does make for some uncomfortable flirting. I actually felt that way a bit during ME2 towards Jacob (or more accurately, that HE felt that way when I tried to climb his leg all the time).

Something would need to be done about that I think, to make it a little less like sexual-harassment and more like actual budding romance based in personal equality, before a romance option could move forward. As it is - with the totally harmless flirtation - it's fine, but taking it up a notch would require some re-tweaking that might lose that element even for those who didn't want a romance with him.

On a semi-related note: is there capacity to determine how much a player is "into" his or her squad mates by tracking how often they are brought on missions? Like, if we take Garrus with us absolutely everywhere, could that tell the game that maybe we like-like him? Or James, or whoever? Make romances with the people we talk to most often/bring with us more often more romancy?

I think that would be a cool dynamic way to change up the romance/friendship spectrum, but I have no idea how feasible it actually is from a dev/programming point.

[Saodade]

Tashash wrote...

BatmanPWNS wrote...

Except romance and not being able to get a punch from Vega (Double standard), FemShep gets the same stuff MaleShep (Sheploo is just the main default face for Shepard)

Agreed.

Oh, you don't like Kaidan or let him to die on Virmire? Sucks to be you.

Oh, you romanced Jacob? Sorry, he gets infected with ****-ism and six months later is making babies with another woman. 

Oh, you romanced Thane? Well, you knew he was dying. Huh? What lung transplant? What new medigel formula? *sweeps under rug*

Oh, you didn't want to romance Garrus in ME2? Well aren't you picky?

Here, have Traynor, Allers and Liara. What you want a hetero romance? Prude.

Thanks BW, really.

+100

[shepskisaac]

It's just a jacket, but I totally understand why FemShep fans are unhappy  that there's no one for FemShep. It's freaking ahmaaaaaazing <333



Best casual outfit since Kasumi's evening suit

Modifié par IsaacShep, 11 mai 2012 - 06:19 .

[Vertigo_1]

I actually didn't like the suit so much, but yeah, DAT JACKET
My FemShep is jealous =(

[shepskisaac]

Vertigo_1 wrote...

I actually didn't like the suit so much

You didn't?  What about TIM's suit? Dem suits in ME games are so freaking amazing to me, I need to get them made for myself IRL

[Lenimph]

Asdara wrote...

You'd think that Bioware/EA would have some clue as to female motivations for playing their product as avidly as we do might have something to do with the potential for character interaction and specifically romances. I mean, seriously, I would be surprised if that wasn't completely provable by some sort of survey, say on here for example. Hence, it makes absolutely no damn sense to shaft us in the romance department of all bloody places. It's like they don't want us to buy their stuff.

I actually know someone who loved both Dragon Age games wouldn't get ME3 just because of how femsheps hetero romances were shafted.... XD

[Vertigo_1]

IsaacShep wrote...

Vertigo_1 wrote...

I actually didn't like the suit so much

You didn't?  What about TIM's suit? Dem suits in ME games are so freaking amazing to me, I need to get them made for myself IRL

Now THAT suit I liked, haha

Modifié par Vertigo_1, 11 mai 2012 - 06:30 .

[TonyTitan]

I really like your post Asdara....Your thoughts on these 'issues', kinda hit the perverbial nail on the head.    But if I may add some more discussion to your post....

Asdara wrote...

Yes. There are definitely some "chain of command" issues with Vega that are more uncomfortable than those associated more loosely with Kaiden - mainly I think because Kaiden has been off the crew / you were dead / Cerberus affiliation / he has equal rank of independent status as a Spectre. James has none of those things. He's an in-same-military-structure subordinate, and that does make for some uncomfortable flirting. I actually felt that way a bit during ME2 towards Jacob (or more accurately, that HE felt that way when I tried to climb his leg all the time).

Something would need to be done about that I think, to make it a little less like sexual-harassment and more like actual budding romance based in personal equality, before a romance option could move forward. As it is - with the totally harmless flirtation - it's fine, but taking it up a notch would require some re-tweaking that might lose that element even for those who didn't want a romance with him.

Agreed!  Rank even played an issue with Ashley in ME1...at first she was a tad bit uncomfortable with Shep. 'hitting up' on her.  Obviously the scene didn't come across to strongly to suggest that she would actually press charges against Shep...but she did make it 'softly' known that fraternizing among the ranks was not cool.  And after getting to know Ash more within ME1...and her thoughts towards aliens....I almost wish they would have kept her simply as a 'flirt' to Shep, and had let him find someone who was more tolerant and in the same mindset of his. (Meaning that Shep knew working with 'aliens' was perfectly acceptable....and his potential LI would have NO issue with that.  Ash NEVER fit that....not even in ME2)

James seems to be a bit like Ash.  And I only mean that in regards to his comfort among rank.  I think he only views Shep as a superior officer...Shep I love in how she's acceptable with being a 'friend' amongst her crew.  They're squadmates, but also friends...and to this extent, it is how I feel it is as far as it should go between James and Shep.  They make awesome friends.  Hell, the 2 of them just about beat the living snot out of each other....Friends can do that sort of thing...LI's couldn't.  In a situation like that...where they 'dance'.....the 'loser' is going to walk away with hurt feelings.  "Crap, I just got beaten by my bf/gf......sulk.....sulk.....sulk". 

Jacob on the other hand I just did not like at all.  Here's a Cerberus soldier who merely helps Shep escape from the facility in ME2....to one conversation later you're trusting him, or not.....then within 2-3 conversations later (once aboard the Normandy, you're starting to hit on him????  REALLY!??  Nah....Jacob I just never really cared for.  Did his loyalty mission and that was it with him.  ESPECIALLY once I heard him sounding like he was about to 'soil' himself when vocalizing, "Putting up a barrier!"......

Asdara wrote...

On a semi-related note: is there capacity to determine how much a player is "into" his or her squad mates by tracking how often they are brought on missions? Like, if we take Garrus with us absolutely everywhere, could that tell the game that maybe we like-like him? Or James, or whoever? Make romances with the people we talk to most often/bring with us more often more romancy?

I think that would be a cool dynamic way to change up the romance/friendship spectrum, but I have no idea how feasible it actually is from a dev/programming point.

That would be a cool dynamic...IF it could be created into the game play.  However, what about times where Shep might feel that a situation/mission would be to dangerous....and keep his/her LI OFF the mission because of that?  That's one of those things I've thought of at times while playing......But I'm with you....I think it would be pretty cool if some sort of system could be created that accounted for such things.  

[s17tabris]

IsaacShep wrote...

It's just a jacket, but I totally understand why FemShep fans are unhappy  that there's no one for FemShep. It's freaking ahmaaaaaazing <333

*snip*

Best casual outfit since Kasumi's evening suit
*snip*

Yep, I like both outfits.  I always had my manshep wear those.  Bioware probably didn't think that femshep was important enough to get a decent casual attire and just gave her a crappy reskinned Allers dress.

On topic... Straight femshep really got shafted in the romance department.  I could understand what they did with Thane, but with Jacob...

I never romanced Jacob in any of my femshep playthroughs but what he did was just so... wrong(?).  When I recently replayed ME2, I had wanted to kill some squadmates in the suicide mission and Jacob was candidate #1.

Modifié par arr0whead, 11 mai 2012 - 11:37 .

[Sugarjaye]

TonyTitan wrote...

I really like your post Asdara....Your thoughts on these 'issues', kinda hit the perverbial nail on the head.    But if I may add some more discussion to your post....

Asdara wrote...

Yes. There are definitely some "chain of command" issues with Vega that are more uncomfortable than those associated more loosely with Kaiden - mainly I think because Kaiden has been off the crew / you were dead / Cerberus affiliation / he has equal rank of independent status as a Spectre. James has none of those things. He's an in-same-military-structure subordinate, and that does make for some uncomfortable flirting. I actually felt that way a bit during ME2 towards Jacob (or more accurately, that HE felt that way when I tried to climb his leg all the time).

Something would need to be done about that I think, to make it a little less like sexual-harassment and more like actual budding romance based in personal equality, before a romance option could move forward. As it is - with the totally harmless flirtation - it's fine, but taking it up a notch would require some re-tweaking that might lose that element even for those who didn't want a romance with him.

Agreed!  Rank even played an issue with Ashley in ME1...at first she was a tad bit uncomfortable with Shep. 'hitting up' on her.  Obviously the scene didn't come across to strongly to suggest that she would actually press charges against Shep...but she did make it 'softly' known that fraternizing among the ranks was not cool.  And after getting to know Ash more within ME1...and her thoughts towards aliens....I almost wish they would have kept her simply as a 'flirt' to Shep, and had let him find someone who was more tolerant and in the same mindset of his. (Meaning that Shep knew working with 'aliens' was perfectly acceptable....and his potential LI would have NO issue with that.  Ash NEVER fit that....not even in ME2)

James seems to be a bit like Ash.  And I only mean that in regards to his comfort among rank.  I think he only views Shep as a superior officer...Shep I love in how she's acceptable with being a 'friend' amongst her crew.  They're squadmates, but also friends...and to this extent, it is how I feel it is as far as it should go between James and Shep.  They make awesome friends.  Hell, the 2 of them just about beat the living snot out of each other....Friends can do that sort of thing...LI's couldn't.  In a situation like that...where they 'dance'.....the 'loser' is going to walk away with hurt feelings.  "Crap, I just got beaten by my bf/gf......sulk.....sulk.....sulk". 

Jacob on the other hand I just did not like at all.  Here's a Cerberus soldier who merely helps Shep escape from the facility in ME2....to one conversation later you're trusting him, or not.....then within 2-3 conversations later (once aboard the Normandy, you're starting to hit on him????  REALLY!??  Nah....Jacob I just never really cared for.  Did his loyalty mission and that was it with him.  ESPECIALLY once I heard him sounding like he was about to 'soil' himself when vocalizing, "Putting up a barrier!"......

Asdara wrote...

On a semi-related note: is there capacity to determine how much a player is "into" his or her squad mates by tracking how often they are brought on missions? Like, if we take Garrus with us absolutely everywhere, could that tell the game that maybe we like-like him? Or James, or whoever? Make romances with the people we talk to most often/bring with us more often more romancy?

I think that would be a cool dynamic way to change up the romance/friendship spectrum, but I have no idea how feasible it actually is from a dev/programming point.

That would be a cool dynamic...IF it could be created into the game play.  However, what about times where Shep might feel that a situation/mission would be to dangerous....and keep his/her LI OFF the mission because of that?  That's one of those things I've thought of at times while playing......But I'm with you....I think it would be pretty cool if some sort of system could be created that accounted for such things.  

I don't know that's not the feeling I got at all. I kind of feel like he was interested, but held back because of rank etc, so there was just flirting to test the waters so to, that and i think maybe Bioware were going in tat direction and then just stopped and went to work on something else. But I think that maybe early on in the game say when he comments about wanting to give you a nickname that you should be able to keep/turn on the flirting to start a romance, or turn it off and keep it professional, that way i think every one can be happy.