225 réponses à ce sujet

[4stringwizard]

Elyiia wrote...

Honestly? Have you seen how many "I hate Liara" threads appear on a daily basis? If Liara was anymore involved with the plot they would double.

In all seriousness,

Most of those aren't "hate" threads. Grow up. Fans have a lot of reasons to be frustrated over the way Liara's character was handled. Her romance arc was given more attention than anyone else, and her character was practically forced on Shepard.  And she did squat as an actual Shadow Broker. That's not hate, that's a legitimate criticism.

So I say again, she should have spent less time creeping on Shepard and more time actually being useful. Then she probably would have gotten less "hate."

Modifié par 4stringwizard, 09 mai 2012 - 06:14 .

[Elyiia]

4stringwizard wrote...

Elyiia wrote...

Honestly? Have you seen how many "I hate Liara" threads appear on a daily basis? If Liara was anymore involved with the plot they would double.

In all seriousness,

Most of those aren't "hate" threads. Grow up. Fans have a lot of reasons to be frustrated over the way Liara's character was handled. Her romance arc was given more attention than anyone else, and her character was practically forced on Shepard.  And she did squat as an actual Shadow Broker. That's not hate, that's a legitimate criticism.

So I say again, she should have spent less time creeping on Shepard and more time actually being useful. Then she probably would have gotten less "hate."

They are hate threads, have you actually read the posts? A normal person would deal with it and move on. Criticism is fine, but those threads go far beyond criticism. Her romance arc was given more attention sure, but it's more a case of the rest of them were done so poorly that the difference is so obvious. The character was forced on Shepard because she's the only one from ME1 and ME2 that survived and could introduce the Crucible in a slightly less ridiculous fashion. That's a developer's issue.

We don't even know what Liara did, other than the few emails we can read. We know she's gathering resources (both physical and information) for the crucible and we know she's helping to evacuate Thessia. She's clearly doing stuff off-screen that we don't see because it honestly adds nothing to the story itself.

[JBPBRC]

Elyiia wrote...

The character was forced on Shepard because she's the only one from ME1 and ME2 that survived and could introduce the Crucible in a slightly less ridiculous fashion. That's a developer's issue.

Hooooooooooooo boy. I had trouble swallowing down that bit of information of how it was just at Mars even with Liara being a Prothean expert AND the Shadow Broker. It was just so ridiculous. There should've been at least more foreshadowing to it from LotSB, with the previous Shadow Broker having investigated it or something.

The only real way the Crucible wouldn't be nearly as ridiculuous would be if they had started foreshadowing it in the first Mass Effect, not drop it in during the third.

[Rodia Driftwood]

Hell no. Liara became a ruthless character since ME2. She's a badass!.

[Elyiia]

JBPBRC wrote...

Elyiia wrote...

The character was forced on Shepard because she's the only one from ME1 and ME2 that survived and could introduce the Crucible in a slightly less ridiculous fashion. That's a developer's issue.

Hooooooooooooo boy. I had trouble swallowing down that bit of information of how it was just at Mars even with Liara being a Prothean expert AND the Shadow Broker. It was just so ridiculous. There should've been at least more foreshadowing to it from LotSB, with the previous Shadow Broker having investigated it or something.

The only real way the Crucible wouldn't be nearly as ridiculuous would be if they had started foreshadowing it in the first Mass Effect, not drop it in during the third.

Note the word slightly . It's beyond belief that the only piece of information that manages to survive every cycle are the plans for the Crucible.

[JBPBRC]

Elyiia wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...

Elyiia wrote...

The character was forced on Shepard because she's the only one from ME1 and ME2 that survived and could introduce the Crucible in a slightly less ridiculous fashion. That's a developer's issue.

Hooooooooooooo boy. I had trouble swallowing down that bit of information of how it was just at Mars even with Liara being a Prothean expert AND the Shadow Broker. It was just so ridiculous. There should've been at least more foreshadowing to it from LotSB, with the previous Shadow Broker having investigated it or something.

The only real way the Crucible wouldn't be nearly as ridiculuous would be if they had started foreshadowing it in the first Mass Effect, not drop it in during the third.

Note the word slightly . It's beyond belief that the only piece of information that manages to survive every cycle are the plans for the Crucible.

I did note the world slightly. It just isn't enough.

If ever there was a sign that they had written themselves into a corner it was HERP DERP WE FOUND A SUPERWEAPON THAT'S BILLIONS OF YEARS OLD.

[Elyiia]

JBPBRC wrote...

Elyiia wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...

Elyiia wrote...

The character was forced on Shepard because she's the only one from ME1 and ME2 that survived and could introduce the Crucible in a slightly less ridiculous fashion. That's a developer's issue.

Hooooooooooooo boy. I had trouble swallowing down that bit of information of how it was just at Mars even with Liara being a Prothean expert AND the Shadow Broker. It was just so ridiculous. There should've been at least more foreshadowing to it from LotSB, with the previous Shadow Broker having investigated it or something.

The only real way the Crucible wouldn't be nearly as ridiculuous would be if they had started foreshadowing it in the first Mass Effect, not drop it in during the third.

Note the word slightly . It's beyond belief that the only piece of information that manages to survive every cycle are the plans for the Crucible.

I did note the world slightly. It just isn't enough.

If ever there was a sign that they had written themselves into a corner it was HERP DERP WE FOUND A SUPERWEAPON THAT'S BILLIONS OF YEARS OLD.

The funny thing is they could have written a very different plot based on the fact we have anti-matter weaponry in ME1. Add some explanation as to why it couldn't be used before but now because we're fighting for existance it can be. Now fighters can hit as hard as dreadnoughts.

Well, that one is my favourite there's about 6 distinct ways we could have used conventional warfare against the Reapers and not had to resort to this ancient space probe.

[HellbirdIV]

Traynor was pretty boring I felt and a bit of a Mary Sue... I guess they were just trying to make her less useless than Kelly, but still her constant budging into the main story felt rather redundant - at the expense of Liara actually getting to do anything with her Shadow Broker resources.

Bad writing, hoooooo!

[Ingvarr Stormbird]

Actually I won't mind somebody else taking Shadow Broker's job.
I think Liara really forces it on herself with all this "I am brooding tough secretive guy now" act. Didn't do anything good for her character neither did feel natural since ME2, more like "can't decide who I am".

[QuantumSheep13]

Funny how all the Liara nuts come out in force the moment someone so much as dares to criticise the character, legitimate criticisms or not.

Modifié par QuantumSheep13, 09 mai 2012 - 07:00 .

[Deathstroke123]

The way I see it, Samantha is the info person to go to concerning direct missions. Liara, shown with her little chats with Glyph and her computer, seems more concerned with information about the overall galaxy, which is why she talks about planet evacuations, news from her squads, etc.

[JBPBRC]

HellbirdIV wrote...

Traynor was pretty boring I felt and a bit of a Mary Sue... I guess they were just trying to make her less useless than Kelly, but still her constant budging into the main story felt rather redundant - at the expense of Liara actually getting to do anything with her Shadow Broker resources.

Bad writing, hoooooo!

Since I haven't actually responded to the topic of Traynor vs Liara might as well respond with this.

Worthless character.

She uses a toothbrush that costs 6000 credits. Udina is raging about the Alliance's economy, Reapers are destroying Earth, and she's trying to find a 6000-credit toothbrush. I can upgrade a low-tier weapon for less credits.

UNLESS THE TOOTHBRUSH CAN KILL THE REAPERS.

ZOMG REVELATION!!!11!

[bahamutomega]

Elyiia wrote...
We don't even know what Liara did, other than the few emails we can read. We know she's gathering resources (both physical and information) for the crucible and we know she's helping to evacuate Thessia. She's clearly doing stuff off-screen that we don't see because it honestly adds nothing to the story itself.

you just named the problem most people have right there - she really adds little to the story, yet she's being forced on us.  Liara was supposed to have a much more important role - she was supposed to be able to give us a crap-ton of information about the galaxy to help get ready for the Reapers.  instead, she's forced out of her ship by a bunch of Cerberus henchmen (despite having an army herself, supposedly) and then, despite occupying a large section of the occupiable space on the ship, provides very little useful information - basically a terminal at the side of her room that gives us upgrades.  she's a mediocre squadmate (given her pitiful health total).

Traynor was given a minor role that grew larger over time.  i thought she was far less annoying than Chambers was in ME2.  she grew as a character.

i would honestly have no problem with BioWare having Liara throw herself at me if she actually lived up to the legacy of Shadow Broker.  but i found her annoying in my first playthrough and it's been more annoying ever since.  i'm really annoyed with myself that i didn't see it before now (dawning realization - put something in print and have me read it and i smack myself on the head.  yes, i do it a lot - sleep deprivation).  Traynor was excellent at her role.

the hate thing is out of hand.  Liara was an afterthought in ME2 and annoying in most of ME3.  no reason to hate her.  be annoyed with the way BioWare tanked her character.  not her fault.

[rpgfan321]

Uh...ok?

[cbqueue]

Dendio1 wrote...


If you get it then you understand why they couldn't have Liara do even more to drive the plot forwards. People complain as is that she is overbearing on the story compared to the other squadmates.

Then again people will complain over anything. Liara was my love interest and so I wouldn't care if they made her the go to source for everything. Traynor and her chess can go kick rocks.


Edit: actually i agree with your post

cheers!:happy:

[Trikormadenadon]

Samantha Traynor didn't do anything Liara could not do. She has the job of intercepting and organizing comm chatter. That's it. Of course she is going to notice things Liara won't. Traynor monitors military comm traffic for the Alliance. Liara monitors ALL comm traffic FOR THE ENTIRE GALAXY! You think some things won't be missed? Liara is just as mortal as any of the other characters and thus prone to the same oversights.

Samantha is a great character in and of herself, but to suggest she may be a better Shadow Broker just based on what she does in ME3 is asinine.

[Elyiia]

bahamutomega wrote...

Elyiia wrote...
We don't even know what Liara did, other than the few emails we can read. We know she's gathering resources (both physical and information) for the crucible and we know she's helping to evacuate Thessia. She's clearly doing stuff off-screen that we don't see because it honestly adds nothing to the story itself.

you just named the problem most people have right there - she really adds little to the story, yet she's being forced on us.  Liara was supposed to have a much more important role - she was supposed to be able to give us a crap-ton of information about the galaxy to help get ready for the Reapers.  instead, she's forced out of her ship by a bunch of Cerberus henchmen (despite having an army herself, supposedly) and then, despite occupying a large section of the occupiable space on the ship, provides very little useful information - basically a terminal at the side of her room that gives us upgrades.  she's a mediocre squadmate (given her pitiful health total).

Traynor was given a minor role that grew larger over time.  i thought she was far less annoying than Chambers was in ME2.  she grew as a character.

i would honestly have no problem with BioWare having Liara throw herself at me if she actually lived up to the legacy of Shadow Broker.  but i found her annoying in my first playthrough and it's been more annoying ever since.  i'm really annoyed with myself that i didn't see it before now (dawning realization - put something in print and have me read it and i smack myself on the head.  yes, i do it a lot - sleep deprivation).  Traynor was excellent at her role.

the hate thing is out of hand.  Liara was an afterthought in ME2 and annoying in most of ME3.  no reason to hate her.  be annoyed with the way BioWare tanked her character.  not her fault.

But again, if Liara had added to the plot in that fashion Traynor would have been useless. Liara is doing Broker stuff that we can't see so that Traynor has something to do. This does not mean Traynor would make a better SB as the OP believes.

[Vapaa]

Mmmmmh....no

Intercepting a bunch a of critical communications makes you a GREAT comm officier, not a good information broker, if anything, Traynor would be an invaluable Shadow broker informer

Modifié par Vapaä, 09 mai 2012 - 07:09 .

[bahamutomega]

Elyiia wrote...

bahamutomega wrote...
(cut for space)

But again, if Liara had added to the plot in that fashion Traynor would have been useless. Liara is doing Broker stuff that we can't see so that Traynor has something to do. This does not mean Traynor would make a better SB as the OP believes.

mind you, i am (or was) a Liara fan.

Liara promised us information in LotSB.  what information does she provide us as the Shadow Broker?  none.  the Crucible was not a Shadow Broker contact - the Crucible was discovered because she was A) asked by Hackett to go to the archive on Mars and was an expert on Protheans before ever meeting Shepard.  given the glaring information leaks the Cerberus seems to exploit every other day, i really don't think Shepard would trust ANYONE with information about Liara being the Shadow Broker.  in that same thread of thought, sending Liara to the archive probably gave Cerberus a HUGE clue that something important had been or was waiting to be discovered.

maybe Traynor would be a better analyst for the Shadow Broker.  but in terms of in-game information, Liara was a pretty weak Shadow Broker; none of her information ever directly affected Shepard.  the one truly useful bit of information about the beacon on Thessia was conveniently swept under the rug - remember Liara's comment in LotSB about having access to the Asari council?  where was that information?  she was spoon fed the information about the AY monastary from Asari Command.

let's not discount Traynor's efforts entirely - she put together the clues about Grissom Academy and the fake turian signal (yeah, yeah, she had EDI's help, but at least she got along with EDI).  she put together the clues about Gellix (the ex-Cerberus scientists).  she was able to track Kai Leng from Thessia to Horizon.  given what Traynor was able to do with the limited resources she had access to, that's pretty impressive.  could Liara have done it?  maybe - we'll never know.

by contribution, Traynor was a much less intrusive and much more useful presence on the Normandy.

[Iwillbeback]

Samantha helps here and there.
Liara is watching over an entire galaxy constantly making decisions, yeah no.

And kelly was not useless, she was an informant for TIM.

Modifié par Iwillbeback, 09 mai 2012 - 08:34 .

[Elyiia]

bahamutomega wrote...

Elyiia wrote...

bahamutomega wrote...
(cut for space)

But again, if Liara had added to the plot in that fashion Traynor would have been useless. Liara is doing Broker stuff that we can't see so that Traynor has something to do. This does not mean Traynor would make a better SB as the OP believes.

mind you, i am (or was) a Liara fan.

Liara promised us information in LotSB.  what information does she provide us as the Shadow Broker?  none.  the Crucible was not a Shadow Broker contact - the Crucible was discovered because she was A) asked by Hackett to go to the archive on Mars and was an expert on Protheans before ever meeting Shepard.  given the glaring information leaks the Cerberus seems to exploit every other day, i really don't think Shepard would trust ANYONE with information about Liara being the Shadow Broker.  in that same thread of thought, sending Liara to the archive probably gave Cerberus a HUGE clue that something important had been or was waiting to be discovered.

maybe Traynor would be a better analyst for the Shadow Broker.  but in terms of in-game information, Liara was a pretty weak Shadow Broker; none of her information ever directly affected Shepard.  the one truly useful bit of information about the beacon on Thessia was conveniently swept under the rug - remember Liara's comment in LotSB about having access to the Asari council?  where was that information?  she was spoon fed the information about the AY monastary from Asari Command.

let's not discount Traynor's efforts entirely - she put together the clues about Grissom Academy and the fake turian signal (yeah, yeah, she had EDI's help, but at least she got along with EDI).  she put together the clues about Gellix (the ex-Cerberus scientists).  she was able to track Kai Leng from Thessia to Horizon.  given what Traynor was able to do with the limited resources she had access to, that's pretty impressive.  could Liara have done it?  maybe - we'll never know.

by contribution, Traynor was a much less intrusive and much more useful presence on the Normandy.

I'm not trying to disregard Traynor, I'm just saying that her role was given to her to reduce Liara's involvement. And I notice no one has mentioned EDI helping Traynor. Grissom Acadamy was almost certainly with EDI's help.

The issue is in game we are shown Liara focused mainly upon aquisition of resources for the Crucible which doesn't really interact with Shepard's actions of putting a fleet together which is what Traynor was helping with. For all we know Liara did far more towards the war effort overall (the Crucible + the fleet) than Traynor did.

[Arcataye]

Well I do agree that Bioware could've done so much more with Liara being the Shadow Broker but they never did.
If she wasn't the Shadow Broker, she would have less monitors in her cabin, Glyph wouldn't be on the ship and she wouldn't tell us to talk to the volus on the Citadel. That's about all what we personally see in the game.

But all of that wouldn't change even if some other character was the SB.

Shadow Broker's actions were in the background, like sending shiploads of resources to the Crucible. We never actually see it happening, but it's quite a huge thing to do considering how important the Crucible was for the whole war.

Modifié par Arcataye, 09 mai 2012 - 08:57 .

[Wintermaulz]

SergeantSnookie wrote...

You guys...

 

<--------------

[DnVill]

Arcataye wrote...

Well I do agree that Bioware could've done so much more with Liara being the Shadow Broker but they never did.
If she wasn't the Shadow Broker, she would have less monitors in her cabin, Glyph wouldn't be on the ship and she wouldn't tell us to talk to the volus on the Citadel. That's about all what we personally see in the game.

But all of that wouldn't change even if some other character was the SB.

Shadow Broker's actions were in the background, like sending shiploads of resources to the Crucible. We never actually see it happening, but it's quite a huge thing to do considering how important the Crucible was for the whole war.

i agree. Liara also lost a lot of agents during the initial Reaper push.