225 réponses à ce sujet

[spiriticon]

Liara's entire Shadow ship was wiped out by Cerberus. All she had on board the Normandy was a few crappy monitors and a computer.

She's Shadow Broker Lite.

[kyg_20X6]

Someone mentioned her 'army'. Her 'army' of agents are scattered to the winds, working in isolation. They're not her bannermen she can recall to defend her ship (floating on little jetpacks outside the hull, in line formation, lol). Should she recall the stalwart Barla Von? lol. If an enemy warship, say... a Cerberus cruiser, rocks up - she's ****ed. It's meant to be a secret base, not a fortress. Even then, she managed to take out the cruiser and escape with what she could. AND still meet up with the Alliance. AND still figure out the Crucible. AND still join Shepard aboard the Normandy. AND still contribute to the war effort.

BUT LIARA Y U NO KNOW EVERYTHING!?!

[MadRabbit999]

Sorry are we talking about this one?



I have absolutely no idea who's Samantha in ME O.o

[bahamutomega]

kyg_20X6 wrote...

Someone mentioned her 'army'. Her 'army' of agents are scattered to the winds, working in isolation. They're not her bannermen she can recall to defend her ship (floating on little jetpacks outside the hull, in line formation, lol). Should she recall the stalwart Barla Von? lol. If an enemy warship, say... a Cerberus cruiser, rocks up - she's ****ed. It's meant to be a secret base, not a fortress. Even then, she managed to take out the cruiser and escape with what she could. AND still meet up with the Alliance. AND still figure out the Crucible. AND still join Shepard aboard the Normandy. AND still contribute to the war effort.

BUT LIARA Y U NO KNOW EVERYTHING!?!

no, not her army of agents.  i seem to remember fighting through an army of foot soldiers and heavy weapon specialists to get to the first shadow broker...  well, technically, the second shadow broker.  while i did chew up several hundred troops to get to him, was that it?  in the last 6 months, no one thought to replace those lost troops?  TIM was so scared of the Shadow Broker that he sent a cruiser to go shut her down.

and i'm not arguing that her army should have joined the fighting - i'm arguing that it took Shepard - the biggest badass in the galaxy - to get the shadow broker the last time.  a bunch of Cerberus hacks were able to kick her out that easily?  where was the army sent to chase Shepard and Liara down last time?  hell, even if you don't have an army, she had the resources - hire one of the merc bands as throw-away soldiers.

don't render yourself useless.  USE the resources you are trying to save.

[Dendio1]

Dendio1 wrote...

Liara is the reason shepard didnt rot away after Me2. Liara is the reason shepard was able to comprehend the prothean beacon in ME1. Liara is the reason we find the crucible in ME3.

LIARA HATERS: complain she does too much, then complain she doesnt do enough

[Whereto]

Should of been shadow broker missions, where you did some odd infiltrator jobs for liara to gain new info. Sure she has an army of agents, but Shepard is worth a small army anyway(as Cerberus has said, even though they proceed to build an army)

[malakim2099]

bahamutomega wrote...

kyg_20X6 wrote...

Someone mentioned her 'army'. Her 'army' of agents are scattered to the winds, working in isolation. They're not her bannermen she can recall to defend her ship (floating on little jetpacks outside the hull, in line formation, lol). Should she recall the stalwart Barla Von? lol. If an enemy warship, say... a Cerberus cruiser, rocks up - she's ****ed. It's meant to be a secret base, not a fortress. Even then, she managed to take out the cruiser and escape with what she could. AND still meet up with the Alliance. AND still figure out the Crucible. AND still join Shepard aboard the Normandy. AND still contribute to the war effort.

BUT LIARA Y U NO KNOW EVERYTHING!?!

no, not her army of agents.  i seem to remember fighting through an army of foot soldiers and heavy weapon specialists to get to the first shadow broker...  well, technically, the second shadow broker.  while i did chew up several hundred troops to get to him, was that it?  in the last 6 months, no one thought to replace those lost troops?  TIM was so scared of the Shadow Broker that he sent a cruiser to go shut her down.

and i'm not arguing that her army should have joined the fighting - i'm arguing that it took Shepard - the biggest badass in the galaxy - to get the shadow broker the last time.  a bunch of Cerberus hacks were able to kick her out that easily?  where was the army sent to chase Shepard and Liara down last time?  hell, even if you don't have an army, she had the resources - hire one of the merc bands as throw-away soldiers.

don't render yourself useless.  USE the resources you are trying to save.

Considering the apparent amount of resources TIM has at his disposal, he could have tossed enough at Liara to scrap her ship and make her run for it regardless. So yeah, not going to hold that against her.

(Besides, Traynor was annoying to my FemShep... no, thank you, I'm IN a relationship already. Leave my shower alone!)

[uzivatel]

Well, they had to make Traynor at least somewhat useful to justify her presence in the game as more than a lesbian fanservice.
I mean, we have a Shadow Broker and artificial super intelligence on the ship, but there is no way they could find, say, group of besieged Cerberus scientists. Nooo, we need a cute human to do that...

[Garlador]

Here's a thought...

A big argument against either Liara or Traynor is that if whoever has the info, the other becomes redundantly unnecessary. By giving Traynor something to do, Liara's role as the Shadow Broker is hilariously pointless, but if Liara knew everything, Traynor would have nothing to do.

Well... why the hell could they not have worked TOGETHER?! Why not have Traynor and Liara combine their skill-sets and mutually come to solutions together in a logical, rational, sensical way?

I mean, here, this is simple:
Liara: Traynor, my surveillance has picked up some suspicious comm activity. Could you analyze it for me?
Traynor: Sure thing.

Holy crap! It's like... magic! (space magic?) Two people on the same ship pulling their combined talents and resources to combat a greater adversary? It's almost like TEAMWORK!

Seriously, they could have had Liara at least obtain suspicious intel that she passes on to Traynor to get decrypted and then we get the missions as normal and both of them look good, instead of Liara looking like that kid back in grade school who didn't pay attention to the teacher, read his books, do his homework, and preferred to eat Elmer's glue.

Modifié par Garlador, 09 mai 2012 - 02:08 .

[Elyiia]

Garlador wrote...

Here's a thought...

A big argument against either Liara or Traynor is that if whoever has the info, the other becomes redundantly unnecessary. By giving Traynor something to do, Liara's role as the Shadow Broker is hilariously pointless, but if Liara knew everything, Traynor would have nothing to do.

Well... why the hell could they not have worked TOGETHER?! Why not have Traynor and Liara combine their skill-sets and mutually come to solutions together in a logical, rational, sensical way?

I mean, here, this is simple:
Liara: Traynor, my surveillance has picked up some suspicious comm activity. Could you analyze it for me?
Traynor: Sure thing.

Holy crap! It's like... magic! (space magic?) Two people on the same ship pulling their combined talents and resources to combat a greater adversary? It's almost like TEAMWORK!

Seriously, they could have had Liara at least obtain suspicious intel that she passes on to Traynor to get decrypted and then we get the missions as normal and both of them look good, instead of Liara looking like that kid back in grade school who didn't pay attention to the teacher, read his books, do his homework, and preferred to eat Elmer's glue.

For all we know, Liara is the source of all this data. It's not explained at all and makes Liara look bad at her job.

[Garlador]

Elyiia wrote...
For all we know, Liara is the source of all this data. It's not explained at all and makes Liara look bad at her job.

But that's my point. We are given absolutely zero evidence to believe Liara found any useful information. She never mentions it, never brings it up... nothing shown in the game points to Liara using her information in a helpful way, and they COULD have but either didn't or forgot.

Quite frankly, it's just bad writing. The writers decided to put their efforts for Liara into making her Commander Shepard's stress toy instead of making her someone whose title and role in the game made any sort of sense.

As you said yourself, it's not explained at all and it makes Liara look bad. And, despite a few legitimate anti-Liara folks here, I'm not one of them. Liara had the potential to do great things as the Shadow Broker, even work alongside Traynor to become better at it, and instead her potential is entirely squandered.

Unless her "potential" is offering Shepard her curvy blue bottom, in which case that potential was fully tapped. Multiple times. Not always of my Shepard's choice either.

[Stalker]

Samantha being the SB is just as senseless as Liara. It doesn't suit their characters.

Both are forced into their role already: Liara to be the important plot-character for absolutely everything and Traynor to be useful on her Terminal while the SB is on the ship. 
It's a loose-loose actually.

Modifié par Mr Massakka, 09 mai 2012 - 02:28 .

[QuantumSheep13]

Liara: Shepard, I just came up to...

Shepard: GO AWAY! GO AWAY! FOR THE LAST TIME, LIARA, I DO NOT WANT TO SLEEP WITH YOU! JUST GO!

Liara: But, Shepard, I feel that...

Shepard: LEAVE ME ALONE, LIARA! JUST GO AWAY! GO AWAY!

Liara: I feel we have a connection...

Shepard: FOR THE LAST TIME, JUST LEAVE ME ALONE! NO MEANS NO!

On topic, Traynor and Liara were both characters with squandered potential who both seem to get quite a bit of attention from the writers but are not better for it. Both, to me, were a waste of space. Same goes with Vega.

[Tom Lehrer]

It seems this has gotten ignored so Im quoting myself.

Tom Lehrer wrote...

She does not need to be some all knowing god to be made out as a decent Shadow Broker. They could have easily changed on of her bed room visits to an informitive talk were she says Udina has been actting strange and is having agents keep tabs on him. The same can be said for Horrizion "The people who have gone to Sanctuary are never heard from agein".

A few extra lines like that and Liara would of come off as a much better Broker.

Modifié par Tom Lehrer, 09 mai 2012 - 02:41 .

[Garlador]

Tom Lehrer wrote...

It seems ths gotten ignored so Im quoting myself.

Tom Lehrer wrote...

She does not need to be some all knowing god to be made out as a decent Shadow Broker. They could have easily changed on of her bed room visits to an informitive talk were she says Udina has been actting strange and is having agents keep tabs on him. The same can be said for Horrizion "The people who have gone to Sanctuary are never heard from agein".

A few extra lines like that and Liara would of come off as a much better Broker.

 I was indirectly referring to this post earlier.
Yeah, just have a few simple lines foreshadowing what's going to happen. How many people talked about Sanctuary and how often did it sound very suspicious? All the bloody time! C'mon, Liara... how hard would it have been to realize every single person that went there vanished without a trace. Hell, you'd think the friends and families of these people alone would be generating enough discussions to warrant a throw-away line. "You know, Bob, my entire famiily and friends went to Sanctuary and I never heard from them again."

All Liara needed was a few lines to at least give the impression she knew something was WRONG; she didn't have to be an all-knowing god and solve all the problems, but she at the very least should have been going "this doesn't feel right..." which, in turn, would have build up suspense for the inevitable payoffs.

[Hicks233]

QuantumSheep13 wrote...

Liara: Shepard, I just came up to...

Shepard: GO AWAY! GO AWAY! FOR THE LAST TIME, LIARA, I DO NOT WANT TO SLEEP WITH YOU! JUST GO!

Liara: But, Shepard, I feel that...

Shepard: LEAVE ME ALONE, LIARA! JUST GO AWAY! GO AWAY!

Liara: I feel we have a connection...

Shepard: FOR THE LAST TIME, JUST LEAVE ME ALONE! NO MEANS NO!
.

Pretty much this.

It might be interesting to play through the trilogy ignoring Liara as much as possible. Wonder if it will be reflected...

If her plot armour were to be removed with the extended cut I'd be ever so happy.

Could fill the XO's office with pyjacks tapping on keyboards, given enough time they're bound to type something of use by accident.

[Unschuld]

 

[dreamgazer]

Garlador wrote...

Here's a thought...

A big argument against either Liara or Traynor is that if whoever has the info, the other becomes redundantly unnecessary. By giving Traynor something to do, Liara's role as the Shadow Broker is hilariously pointless, but if Liara knew everything, Traynor would have nothing to do.

Well... why the hell could they not have worked TOGETHER?! Why not have Traynor and Liara combine their skill-sets and mutually come to solutions together in a logical, rational, sensical way?

I mean, here, this is simple:
Liara: Traynor, my surveillance has picked up some suspicious comm activity. Could you analyze it for me?
Traynor: Sure thing.

Holy crap! It's like... magic! (space magic?) Two people on the same ship pulling their combined talents and resources to combat a greater adversary? It's almost like TEAMWORK!

Seriously, they could have had Liara at least obtain suspicious intel that she passes on to Traynor to get decrypted and then we get the missions as normal and both of them look good, instead of Liara looking like that kid back in grade school who didn't pay attention to the teacher, read his books, do his homework, and preferred to eat Elmer's glue.

Despite the negative way you're expressing it and your insistence on not wanting to fill in those gaps for yourself (there's sufficient evidence to suggest Liara has plenty to do with data/development discoveries), I do agree with what you're saying.  They could have done it just once, in fact, and set a precedent that we'd refer to with the rest of the game: "Oh, Traynor's extrapolated outside data again? Liara's intel likely had something to do with it."

You also, somewhat unintentionally, bring up an interesting idea that double-backs to the thread's topic.  It's established in ME1 that the Shadow Broker might actually be several people.  Liara could absorb Traynor into her network, not just as an agent, and the two of them could be a pretty solid "collective" Shadow Broker team.

The fact that they both want Shepard would also present some ... uh, interesting side-conversation opportunities. (laughs)

[Grimwick]

Elyiia wrote...

4stringwizard wrote...

Elyiia wrote...

Honestly? Have you seen how many "I hate Liara" threads appear on a daily basis? If Liara was anymore involved with the plot they would double.

In all seriousness,

Most of those aren't "hate" threads. Grow up. Fans have a lot of reasons to be frustrated over the way Liara's character was handled. Her romance arc was given more attention than anyone else, and her character was practically forced on Shepard.  And she did squat as an actual Shadow Broker. That's not hate, that's a legitimate criticism.

So I say again, she should have spent less time creeping on Shepard and more time actually being useful. Then she probably would have gotten less "hate."

They are hate threads, have you actually read the posts? A normal person would deal with it and move on. Criticism is fine, but those threads go far beyond criticism. Her romance arc was given more attention sure, but it's more a case of the rest of them were done so poorly that the difference is so obvious. The character was forced on Shepard because she's the only one from ME1 and ME2 that survived and could introduce the Crucible in a slightly less ridiculous fashion. That's a developer's issue.

We don't even know what Liara did, other than the few emails we can read. We know she's gathering resources (both physical and information) for the crucible and we know she's helping to evacuate Thessia. She's clearly doing stuff off-screen that we don't see because it honestly adds nothing to the story itself.

^ This 100%

[TNT1991]

Garlador wrote...

Tom Lehrer wrote...

It seems ths gotten ignored so Im quoting myself.

Tom Lehrer wrote...

She does not need to be some all knowing god to be made out as a decent Shadow Broker. They could have easily changed on of her bed room visits to an informitive talk were she says Udina has been actting strange and is having agents keep tabs on him. The same can be said for Horrizion "The people who have gone to Sanctuary are never heard from agein".

A few extra lines like that and Liara would of come off as a much better Broker.

 


 I was indirectly referring to this post earlier.
Yeah, just have a few simple lines foreshadowing what's going to happen. How many people talked about Sanctuary and how often did it sound very suspicious? All the bloody time! C'mon, Liara... how hard would it have been to realize every single person that went there vanished without a trace. Hell, you'd think the friends and families of these people alone would be generating enough discussions to warrant a throw-away line. "You know, Bob, my entire famiily and friends went to Sanctuary and I never heard from them again."

All Liara needed was a few lines to at least give the impression she knew something was WRONG; she didn't have to be an all-knowing god and solve all the problems, but she at the very least should have been going "this doesn't feel right..." which, in turn, would have build up suspense for the inevitable payoffs.

 

Pretty much. Yeah.

[4stringwizard]

Hicks233 wrote...

QuantumSheep13 wrote...

Liara: Shepard, I just came up to...

Shepard: GO AWAY! GO AWAY! FOR THE LAST TIME, LIARA, I DO NOT WANT TO SLEEP WITH YOU! JUST GO!

Liara: But, Shepard, I feel that...

Shepard: LEAVE ME ALONE, LIARA! JUST GO AWAY! GO AWAY!

Liara: I feel we have a connection...

Shepard: FOR THE LAST TIME, JUST LEAVE ME ALONE! NO MEANS NO!
.

Pretty much this.

It might be interesting to play through the trilogy ignoring Liara as much as possible. Wonder if it will be reflected...

If her plot armour were to be removed with the extended cut I'd be ever so happy.

Could fill the XO's office with pyjacks tapping on keyboards, given enough time they're bound to type something of use by accident.

Meanwhile on Earth: 

Liara: Shepard, I was wondering if I could merge my mind with yours...

Shepard: THIS ISN'T THE TIME!

Liara: I was hoping-

Shepard: *pepper sprays Liara in the face*

[Dendio1]

4stringwizard wrote...

Hicks233 wrote...

QuantumSheep13 wrote...

Liara: Shepard, I just came up to...

Shepard: GO AWAY! GO AWAY! FOR THE LAST TIME, LIARA, I DO NOT WANT TO SLEEP WITH YOU! JUST GO!

Liara: But, Shepard, I feel that...

Shepard: LEAVE ME ALONE, LIARA! JUST GO AWAY! GO AWAY!

Liara: I feel we have a connection...

Shepard: FOR THE LAST TIME, JUST LEAVE ME ALONE! NO MEANS NO!
.

Pretty much this.

It might be interesting to play through the trilogy ignoring Liara as much as possible. Wonder if it will be reflected...

If her plot armour were to be removed with the extended cut I'd be ever so happy.

Could fill the XO's office with pyjacks tapping on keyboards, given enough time they're bound to type something of use by accident.

Meanwhile on Earth: 

Liara: Shepard, I was wondering if I could merge my mind with yours...

Shepard: THIS ISN'T THE TIME!

Liara: I was hoping-

Shepard: *pepper sprays Liara in the face*

Liara haters gonna hate .jpg needed here

[TNT1991]

Dendio1 wrote...

Liara haters gonna hate .jpg needed here

 

[rubynorman]

Dendio1 wrote...

Dendio1 wrote...

Liara is the reason shepard didnt rot away after Me2. Liara is the reason shepard was able to comprehend the prothean beacon in ME1. Liara is the reason we find the crucible in ME3.

LIARA HATERS: complain she does too much, then complain she doesnt do enough

+1
Now for the people who are discussing this seriously

I believe that the SB's works rely on agents, spies. It's about trading
informations, organizing, cataloging. While Traynor's works rely on
technology. Most of Traynor and EDI's discoveries happen because she
tracking/ receiving signals. Their works are different. If their works are different how can some say Traynor would make a better SB than Liara.

Rolling Flame wrote...

Just thought I'd add my two cents on the Liara/SB situation.

Personally,
it doesn't bother me, because I know Liara is focused on helping build
the Crucible, which is the most important operation of the war.
Naturally, the reason Traynor finds Grissom Academy/Sanctuary/Cerberus
Scientists is so she actually is relevant to the story, otherwise she'd
be a nothing character in a ManShep playthough, and the token lesbian in
a FemShep one.

One of the things that does bother me is when
people use Wrex to point out that Liara wasn't doing her job. They fail
to acknowledge that Mordin/Wiks leaked it directly to him. How would
Liara, or anyone else for that matter, known about it if that was the
case.

As for Cerberus, I don't think people are thinking things
through fully here. The old Broker knew a helluva lot about the
organisation because he had many agents infiltrating its ranks. Then,
Cerberus decides to actively use Reaper tech to not only enhance the
effectiveness of its soldiers, but to ensure their loyalty, through
indoctrination and conditioning. Naturally, any Broker agent in Cerberus
who chose to be integrated would become an fanatical Cerberus trooper,
while any that tried to resist would either be killed, or forced to run,
and could not be used by Liara in any furhter operations against
Cerberus, as they keep records on who abandons them.

Besides,
there are already enough people whinging about how much screen time
Liara got. Could you imagine how much worse it would be if she had
Traynor's role, as well?

Modifié par rubynorman, 09 mai 2012 - 06:08 .

[dublin omega 223]

I think the OP is right on the money, in ME3 Liara was a terrible SB, Traynor was miles better.