83 réponses à ce sujet

[Draythe]

Just some thoughts on where Dragon Age 2 went wrong and why. Opinions, not facts. Take them as you will.

http://www.gatheryou...-modernization/ 

[deathadder99]

Yup agree with everything there. Bioware is the only company who makes BG2 type games anyway, and I've played everything theyve made to death. When they stop making new stuff I'm gonna be a sad bunny.

[Realmzmaster]

First, I would not insult the COD crowd by calling them mindless. That crowd covers everyone from wage workers to doctors. Also some of those people who play COD also play cRPGs. The generalization is insulting and needs to stop. It is not the COD crowds fault if a developer wants to try to use a different genre to attract them. Blame the developer. Let's face facts the numbers that the COD crowd consistently put up is a like a siren's song to a developer. (substitute Skyrim) in place of COD and you get the same effect.

I have seen gamers play COD in both single and multi-player. It is far from the button mashing mindless activity many seem to think it is.

[Face of Evil]

I grow so weary of this elitist nonsense about "true RPGs". I'd wager that most of the people on this forum were suckling at their mothers' teats when I started playing RPGs, and I liked Dragon Age 2 fine.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 08 mai 2012 - 10:32 .

[deathadder99]

All of this is just IMO. It's not "elitist nonsense", it's BioWare ignoring the fans who have been loyal for 10 years+, in order to attract an entirely different demographic. There's a reason DA2 sold so terribly. I play CoD too, and I play RPGs, but I hate action RPGs. If I play an RPG (especially a bioware RPG) I want to be strategic, and I want an adventure with great story and characters. If I play CoD I want something that isn't too taxing on the brain but needs twitch reflexes and aiming skill. The games should be entirely separate.

Dragon age is not an action RPG. Dragon Age is the spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate, which is the best RPG series of all time (top 5 easily at least), and people bought it as such. Dragon Age 2 was nothing like Baldur's Gate, and was completely disappointing for the reason that it became almost an entirely different game - closer to Mass Effect than BG. Yes, mass effect is great, as is CoD, but it's not Dragon Age, and it's not what Dragon Age's selling point is, or what caused Origins to be so great. A lot of DA2 sales were based on Biowares reputation and how good DA:O was. People were so annoyed because of the fact that it was not what they were expecting, and the change in direction didn't attract enough new blood to be worth it. Yes, DA:O had flaws, but DA2 was IMO worse in every way.

[slashthedragon]

Face of Evil wrote...

I grow so weary of this elitist nonsense about "true RPGs". I'd wager that most of the people on this forum were suckling at their mothers' teats when I started playing RPGs, and I liked Dragon Age 2 fine.

(swerving OT just for a sec)
Just curious, what was your first RPG?  I get a bit nostalgic at times.  Mine were Dragon Warrior and Final Fantasy.  I'm not sure how "true" those are though, as I had to "roleplay" a male hero every single time...:/

[hoorayforicecream]

The OP's blog post seems like it can be boiled down to being sad that there are people who like what he doesn't like, and that their money spends just as well as his. I feel a bit sorry for him, but the long and the short of it is that development costs significantly increase with each console generation, meaning that the publishers need to sell more copies in order to recoup their investments and continue to produce future games. I happened to like DAO, and I liked DA2, and I suspect I will like DA3.

[whykikyouwhy]

With regard to this statement:

deathadder99 wrote...

All of this is just IMO. It's not "elitist nonsense", it's BioWare ignoring the fans who have been loyal for 10 years+, in order to attract an entirely different demographic.

What's wrong with trying to attract a different demographic? What's wrong with wanting to draw more people into RPGs, fantasy realms, or just gaming in general? 

I seem to recall (and I am an old hag, so this may have been "way back when") that there was a time when gamers in general were ostracized, mocked, ridiculed, shunned, etc for their fandom of other worlds and the throwing of some dice. For wanting to play in realms of magic and dragons. Gaming and geekdom, however you want to label it, is something that has a solid following and has gained some respect nowadays - shouldn't we be welcoming folks into those worlds? Shouldn't we be excited when people who have never played an RPG, or even considered putting that sword-festooned disc in their PC or console, suddenly feel that thrill from creating a character and moving him/her through the adventure as it unfolds?

Maybe that was Bioware's thought, maybe that's always been their goal (just guessing, since I don't know any Bioware devs personally). Perhaps they did not throw open those doors in a manner that you find acceptable, but I could easily see why they would want more people to enjoy their games - not just for any profit, but for the sheer geeky thrill of being excited about something. It's not the abandonment of their fans, or of what their fans may think an RPG should be - those RPG elements are still there. The stories are still solid, the characters still strong. It seems to boil down to just opening up their worlds to let more folks play in them. And I, for one, am happy to share that playing field. 

[GodWood]

Face of Evil wrote...
I grow so weary of this elitist nonsense about "true RPGs". I'd wager that most of the people on this forum were suckling at their mothers' teats when I started playing RPGs, and I liked Dragon Age 2 fine.

Clearly you've gotten too senile to tell a good game from a bad one.

[Scarlet Rabbi]

Call Of Duty IS a mindless, button-mashing activity. Just because something may sound insulting doesn't make it untrue. Sometimes wage-workers, doctors, lawyers etc like to engage in mindless, button-mashing activity, (in which case they could play COD or DA2 on casual or normal) and that's perfectly fine; whatever floats one's boat...sail on! But don't dress a mutt up in rottweiler skin and call it a pure-bred, call a spade a spade. COD requires one to have as much tactical thinking/planning as it takes to spread mustard on a sandwich, and no matter how many millions of copies it sells it will never change that fact. And that's OK. I personally despise the entire series as an abomination defecating money-grubbing commercialism on potential art, and others, many others, love COD because it's let's them unwind and take a break from the stress of life and just blow s*** up, and think of people like me as a whiny, elitist douche who has his head up his own behind, and neither one of our opinions are less valid than the other. But, as I stated before, let's call things what they are. COD and everything like it are mindless, button-mashing activites; right down to the very definition of each word used to describe it.

[areuexperienced]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

With regard to this statement:

deathadder99 wrote...

All of this is just IMO. It's not "elitist nonsense", it's BioWare ignoring the fans who have been loyal for 10 years+, in order to attract an entirely different demographic.

What's wrong with trying to attract a different demographic? What's wrong with wanting to draw more people into RPGs, fantasy realms, or just gaming in general? 

I seem to recall (and I am an old hag, so this may have been "way back when") that there was a time when gamers in general were ostracized, mocked, ridiculed, shunned, etc for their fandom of other worlds and the throwing of some dice. For wanting to play in realms of magic and dragons. Gaming and geekdom, however you want to label it, is something that has a solid following and has gained some respect nowadays - shouldn't we be welcoming folks into those worlds? Shouldn't we be excited when people who have never played an RPG, or even considered putting that sword-festooned disc in their PC or console, suddenly feel that thrill from creating a character and moving him/her through the adventure as it unfolds?

Maybe that was Bioware's thought, maybe that's always been their goal (just guessing, since I don't know any Bioware devs personally). Perhaps they did not throw open those doors in a manner that you find acceptable, but I could easily see why they would want more people to enjoy their games - not just for any profit, but for the sheer geeky thrill of being excited about something. It's not the abandonment of their fans, or of what their fans may think an RPG should be - those RPG elements are still there. The stories are still solid, the characters still strong. It seems to boil down to just opening up their worlds to let more folks play in them. And I, for one, am happy to share that playing field. 

Thank you. My first RPG was KOTOR back when I was in primary school and I enjoyed the story to no end but the combat was frankly boring, tedious and felt like a chore, in my opinion,  I remember having to punch in cheat codes just so that I could properly enjoy the game.  
I've loved BioWare's games since then but my experience with DA:O was mostly the same as with KOTOR, bar the cheat-codes. DA2 I felt carried over the great things about BioWare games in general - the story and the characters, whilst making the combat experience a lot more enjoyable. And yes, combat IS important, it's basically half the time you spend in the game and as much as I enjoy a good story, I've quit DA:O more than once due to being bored to tears of the monotony that the combat there is.


In the end, I play these games for the same reasons you do - for a great, character-driven story. I however like my combat to actually feel like combat. Would I be playing these games if they were all done in the manner of KOTOR or DA:O's combat - probably yes, I'm in it for the story, after all. Am I enjoying them more in the way they're done in ME or DA2 - yes, very much so, and I don't see how that's bad.


On another note, those of you who seem to view shooters as mindless button-mashing clearly haven't done any competitive FPS. I also don't see why shooters should just be viewed as the realm of keyboard-bashing half-wits and RPGs as being played only by intellectuals or something. Different people like different things, can't we all just get along?

[Tommyspa]

Ah, condescension, always the prerogative of those who are no longer being pandered to endlessly.

[Face of Evil]

slashthedragon wrote...

Just curious, what was your first RPG?  I get a bit nostalgic at times.  Mine were Dragon Warrior and Final Fantasy.  I'm not sure how "true" those are though, as I had to "roleplay" a male hero every single time...:/

Those were among the first Nintendo RPGs I played. Good times. But I was playing Dungeons and Dragons in the days of THACO and have stuck with the genre since then.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 09 mai 2012 - 12:47 .

[slashthedragon]

Face of Evil wrote...

slashthedragon wrote...

Just curious, what was your first RPG?  I get a bit nostalgic at times.  Mine were Dragon Warrior and Final Fantasy.  I'm not sure how "true" those are though, as I had to "roleplay" a male hero every single time...:/

Those were among the first Nintendo RPGs I played. Good times. But I was playing Dungeons and Dragons in the days of THACO and have stuck with the genre since then.

Unfortunately D&D was not big where I live so I've never played :/
Is there a group on here that discusses older games?  There is just something about having grown up during the
beginning of video games and their evolution from the late 70s through the 80s that just can't compare with any "evolution" today.  Yes the next XBOX might be in 3D and have characters that look absolutely real, but it won't give me the same feeling as playing Pac-Man for the first time, or being in awe of the Dragon's Lair arcade game.

[Andraste_Reborn]

As others have already pointed out, it is entirely possible to like both Old Skool CRPGs of the Baldur's Gate school and also Dragon Age 2. I started playing RPGs with the Realms of Arkania series in the mid-nineties and I have finished and enjoyed DA2 six times.

I love my nineties RPGs at the time - still do - but BioWare want to try something different and reach out to a broader audience, and I support that. I've always played CRPGs for the characters and story, and I liked those just as much in DA2 as in the original Baldurs Gate. (In the case of the characters, rather a lot more.)

[Joy Divison]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

What's wrong with trying to attract a different demographic? What's wrong with wanting to draw more people into RPGs, fantasy realms, or just gaming in general?

Because it typically results in mediocre and insipid productions.

Would have have respected the Beatles if they made a disco record to attract new fans?

Modifié par Joy Divison, 09 mai 2012 - 02:48 .

[whykikyouwhy]

Joy Divison wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

What's wrong with trying to attract a different demographic? What's wrong with wanting to draw more people into RPGs, fantasy realms, or just gaming in general?

Because it typically results in mediocre and insipid productions.

Would have have respected the Beatles if they made a disco record to attract new fans?

Hm. Well, wrong decade for them. And actually, the Beatles experimented with numerous styles. Sgt Pepper was quite a departure for them. 

[Sajji]

Interesting topic

[Jitter]

slashthedragon wrote...

Face of Evil wrote...

I grow so weary of this elitist nonsense about "true RPGs". I'd wager that most of the people on this forum were suckling at their mothers' teats when I started playing RPGs, and I liked Dragon Age 2 fine.

(swerving OT just for a sec)
Just curious, what was your first RPG?  I get a bit nostalgic at times.  Mine were Dragon Warrior and Final Fantasy.  I'm not sure how "true" those are though, as I had to "roleplay" a male hero every single time...:/

1) Pen And paper D&D i still have Moster Manual I on my book shelf .
2) Adventure 
3) Dunno the name .... you were the X  in a dungeon that showed like below the monster the M
 | 
 |             M
 |X
 ______________


4)Questron 
5)Ultima I , i lived to Kill Lord British ...... fire ball throwing F&**&*
6)Bard's Tale 
7)The rest of the Ultima Series 
8)Baulders Gate 
9)--------> Well most of them ever made.... 

I used to spend hours filling up pads of graph paper , so i could find my way out of the dungeon i was in 
there were no floating maps... or maps ..period.  (And some thought the dark roads were too big ..sad)

And i can say , having been there for the advent of the Genre , from pen and paper to today. 
DA2 is an unmitigated piece of crap .  Should have marketed it as "Awesome age 2 the rise of Pew Pew" 

Disclaimer :

Contains some awkward adult themes, Safe for the directionally challenged, friendly for those with A.D.D , if you cant remember a zone don't worry we will show it again and again .  

Modifié par Jitter, 09 mai 2012 - 03:06 .

[slashthedragon]

Jitter wrote...

3) Dunno the name .... you were the X  in a dungeon that showed like below the monster the M
 | 
 |             M
 |X
 ______________

Was that on the Atari?  I remember something like that.

Also, did anyone ever play Final Fantasy Adventure?  It may have been on Gameboy and in b&w but damn did it make me cry.  I don't cry at modern games, and not just because I'm older.  It just doesn't come across the same...hard to explain unless you've been there...

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

It's no different to FPS games introducing story to try and tempt the RPG crowd.

[mesmerizedish]

I don't have the energy to comment on everything that article gets entirely wrong, so I'm just going to quote this comment it makes about Origins:

environments were plentiful, expansive and various

[Jitter]

slashthedragon wrote...

Jitter wrote...

3) Dunno the name .... you were the X  in a dungeon that showed like below the monster the M
 | 
 |             M
 |X
 ______________

Was that on the Atari?  I remember something like that.

Also, did anyone ever play Final Fantasy Adventure?  It may have been on Gameboy and in b&w but damn did it make me cry.  I don't cry at modern games, and not just because I'm older.  It just doesn't come across the same...hard to explain unless you've been there...

Dunno Ultima was on the C64 , im 39 now , i think i was 8 or 9 when i was playing that. 
there were something like 180 levels of dungeon .... on level 1 there was a secret door near the entrance , the Dungeon master was inside. ......  If that helps .... my dad was a prof at UWO , he would leave me on a mainframe trminal while he worked in the summer time. He took me to work .... I remember if you mapped out the levels i think level 69 .. spelled the work FU*&  


Hummmm now that i think about it ... i play RPG's and write software for a living ..... how did that happen....

Modifié par Jitter, 09 mai 2012 - 03:20 .