266 réponses à ce sujet

[sAxMoNkI]

Sgt Stryker wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

sAxMoNkI wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

The militaristic society of the Turians is illustrated as an ideal with its strict discipline, but broad individual freedoms

Might just be me but that does sound like an ideal society. Everyone has a role and something to contribute and as long as it doesn't negatively affect everyone around you, you can persue whatever interests you wish.

I'm aware it most likely wouldn't work in practise but I think the ideal is sound.

But the main thing which allows this society, which Bioware portrays is militarism, and the autocratic Hieracrhy's constant, excessive preparations for threats, barring the Reapers which no one could have predicted, don't exist. 

There is nothing wrong with being prepared for war.

Precisely, Javik said it best;

Javik: The Synril claimed to have found the path to eternal peace.
Garrus: What happened?
Javik: The Ditakur preferred war and wiped them out

[legion999]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

legion999 wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

If Bioware supports democracy, then explain why there are no sympathetic democratically, elected officials.

They're all dead.

Show me a politician who does anything except get in your way even since Mass Effect 1. 

Your party members even verbally express their hatred of politicians.

When you put your main military main, Anderson on the Council, he becomes frustrated with politics because its too dirty, even for him, a blood stained veteran, and quits opting for the perennial jerk, Udina.

Yes but we're also not shown a sympathetic Muslim person or cat lovers or other groups. Doses that mean Bioware dislikes those groups? No it just means they're not in the game. Also most human politicians are on Arcturus station.

[Catamantaloedis]

Vapaä wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

Every democratically elected or representative political figure is either portrayed as a self-serving, coward or power-hungry and corrupt(Udina).

You do realize that Udina (and every council member by the way) was NOT elected but appointed, right ?

But who appointed these people? Their elected governments, at least in the case of the humans and the Asari. I'm unsure if the Salarians are democratic, but Bioware disapproves of their race simply because they are unwilling to fight, even if they are not democratic.

[xsdob]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

xsdob wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

xsdob wrote...

Anyone up for spamming this thread into a lockdown?

Is the truth that frightening?

No, but your post doesn't do a good job at showing the truth.

Bioware paints the military leaders and militaristic government in a positive light. While there is not 1 sympathetic democratic figure. In fact, they are portrayed as greedy, incompetent, and generally stupid.
Ergo, Mass Effect clearly has a theme of militarism and dictatorship as a preferable form of government to liberal  democracy.

What about the elcor and volus diplomats? Hell din risked his life trying to do the right thing, even if it did bite him in the ass.

And we see plently of military men acting like monsters, such as balak.

But the most crucial fact you are forgetting is that in real life politicians are opputunistic and can pass legislations doing decades worth of damage just to score political points against their opponents.

[Catamantaloedis]

legion999 wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

legion999 wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

If Bioware supports democracy, then explain why there are no sympathetic democratically, elected officials.

They're all dead.

Show me a politician who does anything except get in your way even since Mass Effect 1. 

Your party members even verbally express their hatred of politicians.

When you put your main military main, Anderson on the Council, he becomes frustrated with politics because its too dirty, even for him, a blood stained veteran, and quits opting for the perennial jerk, Udina.

Yes but we're also not shown a sympathetic Muslim person or cat lovers or other groups. Doses that mean Bioware dislikes those groups? No it just means they're not in the game. Also most human politicians are on Arcturus station.

But you're not shown a bunch of downright stupid, incompetent, cowardly, and corrupt Muslims, cat lovers or other groups. That's the only type of politician presented in the Mass Effect universe.

Modifié par Catamantaloedis, 08 mai 2012 - 08:16 .

[xsdob]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

Vapaä wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

Every democratically elected or representative political figure is either portrayed as a self-serving, coward or power-hungry and corrupt(Udina).

You do realize that Udina (and every council member by the way) was NOT elected but appointed, right ?

But who appointed these people? Their elected governments, at least in the case of the humans and the Asari. I'm unsure if the Salarians are democratic, but Bioware disapproves of their race simply because they are unwilling to fight, even if they are not democratic.

So your point is that we don't see democratically elected officials so that means all of them are portrayed as evil?

[justafan]

Well, they do portray Han'Gerrel, one of the most militant of military men in the series, as a total jerk and idiot (who can under some circumstances get his species genocided), so I don't think your argument holds.

Modifié par justafan, 08 mai 2012 - 08:17 .

[legion999]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

Vapaä wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

Every democratically elected or representative political figure is either portrayed as a self-serving, coward or power-hungry and corrupt(Udina).

You do realize that Udina (and every council member by the way) was NOT elected but appointed, right ?

But who appointed these people? Their elected governments, at least in the case of the humans and the Asari. I'm unsure if the Salarians are democratic, but Bioware disapproves of their race simply because they are unwilling to fight, even if they are not democratic.

Jesus christ IT'S A GALACTIC WAR WERE LOSING EQUALS DEATH. MILITARY LEADERS WILL BE SHOWN IN A BETTER LIGHT BECAUSE THEY'RE THE MORE CENTRAL TO THE STORY NOT POLITICIANS. AND THE ONE CASE OF MILTARY DICTATORSHIP BIG BROTHER STYLED GOVERNMENT IS DESTROYED.

caps lock rage off.

Modifié par legion999, 08 mai 2012 - 08:18 .

[Catamantaloedis]

xsdob wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

Vapaä wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

Every democratically elected or representative political figure is either portrayed as a self-serving, coward or power-hungry and corrupt(Udina).

You do realize that Udina (and every council member by the way) was NOT elected but appointed, right ?

But who appointed these people? Their elected governments, at least in the case of the humans and the Asari. I'm unsure if the Salarians are democratic, but Bioware disapproves of their race simply because they are unwilling to fight, even if they are not democratic.

So your point is that we don't see democratically elected officials so that means all of them are portrayed as evil?

You're not presented one sympathetic governmental leader from a democratic race. Not one. They are literally all portrayed negatively.

[Taboo]

Or Bioware is secretly a group of anarchists.

[Catamantaloedis]

justafan wrote...

Well, they do portray Han'Gerrel, one of the most militant of military men in the series, as a total jerk and idiot (who can under some circumstances get his species genocided), so I don't think your argument holds.

The Quarians are additionally a de facto democracy, according to Tali.

Modifié par Catamantaloedis, 08 mai 2012 - 08:19 .

[legion999]

justafan wrote...

Well, they do portray Han'Gerrel, one of the most militant of military men in the series, as a total jerk and idiot (who can under some circumstances get his species genocided), so I don't think your argument holds.

And the facist dictatorship Hegemony is destroyed.

[Taboo]

I don't think the OP has ever studied politics.

He just watches Fox News.

[Catamantaloedis]

legion999 wrote...

justafan wrote...

Well, they do portray Han'Gerrel, one of the most militant of military men in the series, as a total jerk and idiot (who can under some circumstances get his species genocided), so I don't think your argument holds.

And the facist dictatorship Hegemony is destroyed.

The Turians, Bioware's favored race are also being defeated as well. Why? Because everyone else refuses to help them because they are cowards.

[justafan]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

justafan wrote...

Well, they do portray Han'Gerrel, one of the most militant of military men in the series, as a total jerk and idiot (who can under some circumstances get his species genocided), so I don't think your argument holds.

The Quarians are additionally a de facto democracy, according to Tali.

de facto, maybe, but they are also still technically under martial law, with the Admiralty Board having tremendous power when it comes to issues of defense and fleet affairs.

Edit:  also, Bioware portrays the Geth, the ultimate pure democracy, as practically space-saints come ME3.

Modifié par justafan, 08 mai 2012 - 08:25 .

[Catamantaloedis]

Taboo-XX wrote...

I don't think the OP has ever studied politics.

He just watches Fox News.

That post is very indicative of your great knowledge of politics. You've proved it well with all of your brilliant points.

Regardless, this has nothing to do with politics at all. It has to do with themes of the series. If Mass Effect portrayed all garbage collectors as incompetent fools, then you would think that the writers are suggesting that in real life garbage collectors are incompetent fools. 

In this universe, nearly, if not all, democratic politicians are portayed as incompetent  fools or worse.

Modifié par Catamantaloedis, 08 mai 2012 - 08:24 .

[Taboo]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

I don't think the OP has ever studied politics.

He just watches Fox News.

That post is very indicative of your great knowledge of politics. You've proved it well with all of your brilliant points.

Regardless, this has nothing to do with politics at all. It has to do with themes of the series. If Mass Effect portrayed all garbage collectors as incompetent fools, then you would think that the writers are suggesting that in real life garbage collectors are incompetent fools. 

In this universe, nearly, if not all, democratic politicians are portayed as incompetent  fools or worse.

Democracy has faults.

Socialism has faults.

Fascism has faults.

Learn this and come back. I can wait ALL DAY.

[legion999]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

legion999 wrote...

justafan wrote...

Well, they do portray Han'Gerrel, one of the most militant of military men in the series, as a total jerk and idiot (who can under some circumstances get his species genocided), so I don't think your argument holds.

And the facist dictatorship Hegemony is destroyed.

The Turians, Bioware's favored race are also being defeated as well. Why? Because everyone else refuses to help them because they are cowards.

No because they've got their own worlds to defend.

[Catamantaloedis]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

I don't think the OP has ever studied politics.

He just watches Fox News.

That post is very indicative of your great knowledge of politics. You've proved it well with all of your brilliant points.

Regardless, this has nothing to do with politics at all. It has to do with themes of the series. If Mass Effect portrayed all garbage collectors as incompetent fools, then you would think that the writers are suggesting that in real life garbage collectors are incompetent fools. 

In this universe, nearly, if not all, democratic politicians are portayed as incompetent  fools or worse.

Democracy has faults.

Socialism has faults.

Fascism has faults.

Learn this and come back. I can wait ALL DAY.

Again, this has nothing to do with the faults of specific forms of government and ideology. If you can't see, or even consider, that Bioware, intentionally or not, has established and anti-democratic theme, what with all of your crew stating their hatred for politicians, the reluctance to face or downright denial of the Reaper threat, the politician who attempts to seize power for himself, and one of the main supporting charcters himself, Anderson, leaving the politcal arena because it's too dirty for him, then you should take an English literature class. They'll tell you how to find clues for themes.

[Makrys]

All I have to say is... the 'abandon thread' gifs have had me rolling in my chair... sooooo 

Modifié par Makrys, 08 mai 2012 - 08:31 .

[Deuterium_Dawn]

Catamantaloedis wrote...
 the Salarians, who avoid war as best they can, damn near refuse to assist you.

...What? The Salarians are not pacifists, nor are they a democracy or democratic in any way. They're described as feudal, with negotiations among the matriarchal Dalatrasses determing who leads the Salarian people who are essentially brainwashed at birth. They don't have a strong conventional military, but they do have the best intelligence service in the galaxy, and a doctrine that heavily favors preemptive strikes. Given the tone of the rest of your post I have to assume you're trolling(especially the "attempting to silence me" bit). Good day.

sAxMoNkI wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

The
militaristic society of the Turians is illustrated as an ideal with its
strict discipline, but broad individual freedoms

Might
just be me but that does sound like an ideal society. Everyone has a
role and something to contribute and as long as it doesn't negatively
affect everyone around you, you can persue whatever interests you wish.

I'm aware it most likely wouldn't work in practise but I think the ideal is sound.

I'd rather choose what I contribute than have the government or anyone else choose for me. "When a good turian hears a bad order, he obeys." You can do whatever you please on your off time but you're expected to fall in line. I don't see that as an ideal.

Modifié par Deuterium_Dawn, 08 mai 2012 - 08:37 .

[Taboo]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

I don't think the OP has ever studied politics.

He just watches Fox News.

That post is very indicative of your great knowledge of politics. You've proved it well with all of your brilliant points.

Regardless, this has nothing to do with politics at all. It has to do with themes of the series. If Mass Effect portrayed all garbage collectors as incompetent fools, then you would think that the writers are suggesting that in real life garbage collectors are incompetent fools. 

In this universe, nearly, if not all, democratic politicians are portayed as incompetent  fools or worse.

Democracy has faults.

Socialism has faults.

Fascism has faults.

Learn this and come back. I can wait ALL DAY.

Again, this has nothing to do with the faults of specific forms of government and ideology. If you can't see, or even consider, that Bioware, intentionally or not, has established and anti-democratic theme, what with all of your crew stating their hatred for politicians, the reluctance to face or downright denial of the Reaper threat, the politician who attempts to seize power for himself, and one of the main supporting charcters himself, Anderson, leaving the politcal arena because it's too dirty for him, then you should take an English literature class. They'll tell you how to find clues for themes.

Then it's probably bad that my political beliefs fall somewhere left of center.

Problem?

[sAxMoNkI]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

I don't think the OP has ever studied politics.

He just watches Fox News.

That post is very indicative of your great knowledge of politics. You've proved it well with all of your brilliant points.

Regardless, this has nothing to do with politics at all. It has to do with themes of the series. If Mass Effect portrayed all garbage collectors as incompetent fools, then you would think that the writers are suggesting that in real life garbage collectors are incompetent fools. 

In this universe, nearly, if not all, democratic politicians are portayed as incompetent  fools or worse.

Democracy has faults.

Socialism has faults.

Fascism has faults.

Learn this and come back. I can wait ALL DAY.

Again, this has nothing to do with the faults of specific forms of government and ideology. If you can't see, or even consider, that Bioware, intentionally or not, has established and anti-democratic theme, what with all of your crew stating their hatred for politicians, the reluctance to face or downright denial of the Reaper threat, the politician who attempts to seize power for himself, and one of the main supporting charcters himself, Anderson, leaving the politcal arena because it's too dirty for him, then you should take an English literature class. They'll tell you how to find clues for themes.

You realise if anything that Bioware is merely playing to the established stereotype that politicians=scumbags. Ask anyone on the street what they think about politicians. I can guess what they'll say....

[Catamantaloedis]

Deuterium_Dawn wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...
 the Salarians, who avoid war as best they can, damn near refuse to assist you.

...What? The Salarians are not pacifists, nor are they a democracy or democratic in any way. They're described as feudal, with negotiations among the matriarchal Dalatrasses determing who leads the Salarian people who are essentially brainwashed at birth. They don't have a strong conventional military, but they do have the best intelligence service in the galaxy, and a doctrine that heavily favors preemptive strikes. Given the tone of the rest of your post I have to assume you're trolling(especially the "attempting to silence me" bit). Good day.

They're not militaristic. They'd rather run from conflict, or have others fight before they have to get involved. Or use *Gasp* science to win conflicts for them. Bioware doesn't want any of that.

None of the racists are pacifists.

Modifié par Catamantaloedis, 08 mai 2012 - 08:35 .

[Catamantaloedis]

sAxMoNkI wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

I don't think the OP has ever studied politics.

He just watches Fox News.

That post is very indicative of your great knowledge of politics. You've proved it well with all of your brilliant points.

Regardless, this has nothing to do with politics at all. It has to do with themes of the series. If Mass Effect portrayed all garbage collectors as incompetent fools, then you would think that the writers are suggesting that in real life garbage collectors are incompetent fools. 

In this universe, nearly, if not all, democratic politicians are portayed as incompetent  fools or worse.

Democracy has faults.

Socialism has faults.

Fascism has faults.

Learn this and come back. I can wait ALL DAY.

Again, this has nothing to do with the faults of specific forms of government and ideology. If you can't see, or even consider, that Bioware, intentionally or not, has established and anti-democratic theme, what with all of your crew stating their hatred for politicians, the reluctance to face or downright denial of the Reaper threat, the politician who attempts to seize power for himself, and one of the main supporting charcters himself, Anderson, leaving the politcal arena because it's too dirty for him, then you should take an English literature class. They'll tell you how to find clues for themes.

You realise if anything that Bioware is merely playing to the established stereotype that politicians=scumbags. Ask anyone on the street what they think about politicians. I can guess what they'll say....

But if you asked them about their favorite politican who they voted for, they probably wouldn't say the same.

But there is no reason that a moral person who vote for any politician which Bioware presented in this series.