266 réponses à ce sujet

[IUDEX99]

You guys wanna pump up the number of pages of this thread?

Or why the heck are you qouting tons of text and just writing one sentence?

[sAxMoNkI]

antares_sublight wrote...

sAxMoNkI wrote...
So Italy isn't in the western world?

/sarcasm

Note the reapers descending on Italy. Because of Musolinni, BioWare gave them extra time.

Hahaha, nice

[frylock23]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

frylock23 wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

If Bioware supports democracy, then explain why there are no sympathetic democratically, elected officials.

How about the guy in Liara's email who says "screw re-election, I'm going to do politically unpopular things to save as many of these civilians as I can"? I'd call that guy pretty sympathetic and heroic. Of course, it's pretty easy to do when you're pretty sure that there probably won't be re-elections afterward ...

Because he couldn't do these good things within a democratic system, yes? Another example of a good man, like Anderson, retreating from the politics of representative democracy because it is an inadequte system, in Bioware's eyes.

Actually he could have, it just wouldn't have gotten him re-elected. There's a difference between not getting elected and breaking the laws of the system.

Of course, now you're making yourself ridiculous because you're starting to sound like you're advocating for pure democracy which in the end is nothing less then mob rule or tyranny of the majority which in the end does not at all protect minority rights.

[Whereto]

It takes all kinds

[Catamantaloedis]

sAxMoNkI wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

sAxMoNkI wrote...

The krogans are a culture intrinsically linked to respecting strength and dominance as those are the traits that Tuchanka bred into them. Therefore they were never going to be democratic.

This is also why you can't expect every race to be a democracy, frankly it's inefficient from a "get things done quickly" perspective. The reason these races have the political systems they do is down to the hundreds of thousands of years of preceding development that lead them to that point.

Anyway i'm digressing. If Bioware had portrayed all of the alien races as democratic republics then you would argue that Bioware supports Liberal, Socialist Mob rule. Either way this is just sensationalism.

The leaders of races cannot show weakness to the other races and thus must appear at least to represent the whole of their people. Just because you are not shown the lower levels of government of each race does not mean they do not exist or that Bioware is peddling a fascist agenda.

I didn't say that Bioware should have made every species, democratic. I'm saying that the democratic governments, and politicians in these governments are portrayed in an overtly negative way. More so than any of the other forms of government.

You can't seriously be telling me you think the Krogan were portrayed in a good light? What of the batarians? Their hegemony was REPEATEDLY criticised in game.

The Krogan, by the end of the game, provided that the genophage was cured, and they have the correct leaders, and their society is reformed in a better manner, are portrayed in an overwhelmingly positive light, even though these leaders express expansionist tendencies even before the genophage was cured. 
And we know very little about the Hegemony, and it's people. Impossible to really comment on them.

[Grimwick]

I lol'd OP, cheers!

[xsdob]

frylock23 wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

frylock23 wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

If Bioware supports democracy, then explain why there are no sympathetic democratically, elected officials.

How about the guy in Liara's email who says "screw re-election, I'm going to do politically unpopular things to save as many of these civilians as I can"? I'd call that guy pretty sympathetic and heroic. Of course, it's pretty easy to do when you're pretty sure that there probably won't be re-elections afterward ...

Because he couldn't do these good things within a democratic system, yes? Another example of a good man, like Anderson, retreating from the politics of representative democracy because it is an inadequte system, in Bioware's eyes.

Actually he could have, it just wouldn't have gotten him re-elected. There's a difference between not getting elected and breaking the laws of the system.

Of course, now you're making yourself ridiculous because you're starting to sound like you're advocating for pure democracy which in the end is nothing less then mob rule or tyranny of the majority which in the end does not at all protect minority rights.

Socrates and aristotle agrees with you on that one.

[SovereignWillReturn]

+1 For Op for giving me a good chuckle.

[Catamantaloedis]

frylock23 wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

frylock23 wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

If Bioware supports democracy, then explain why there are no sympathetic democratically, elected officials.

How about the guy in Liara's email who says "screw re-election, I'm going to do politically unpopular things to save as many of these civilians as I can"? I'd call that guy pretty sympathetic and heroic. Of course, it's pretty easy to do when you're pretty sure that there probably won't be re-elections afterward ...

Because he couldn't do these good things within a democratic system, yes? Another example of a good man, like Anderson, retreating from the politics of representative democracy because it is an inadequte system, in Bioware's eyes.

Actually he could have, it just wouldn't have gotten him re-elected. There's a difference between not getting elected and breaking the laws of the system.

Of course, now you're making yourself ridiculous because you're starting to sound like you're advocating for pure democracy which in the end is nothing less then mob rule or tyranny of the majority which in the end does not at all protect minority rights.

The simple fact that the democratic system, as portrayed in the game, forces a man to essentially give up his post in order to do a moral good, is proof itself. Again, if he was in the Hierarchy, he would've just done the good deed. 

[xsdob]

Catamantaloedis wrote...


The Krogan, by the end of the game, provided that the genophage was cured, and they have the correct leaders, and their society is reformed in a better manner, are portrayed in an overwhelmingly positive light, even though these leaders express expansionist tendencies even before the genophage was cured. 
And we know very little about the Hegemony, and it's people. Impossible to really comment on them.

We know enough to know that the hegemony ruled with an iron fist and was similar to iran or north korea. And I know becasue I did as much research as I could on them because I absolutley love the batarians, they're probably the most interesting race in the whole game becasue they're most like us, they have all the flaws we humans have and serve as a 'what if the humans had tried to go it alone' type story.

[Catamantaloedis]

xsdob wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...


The Krogan, by the end of the game, provided that the genophage was cured, and they have the correct leaders, and their society is reformed in a better manner, are portrayed in an overwhelmingly positive light, even though these leaders express expansionist tendencies even before the genophage was cured. 
And we know very little about the Hegemony, and it's people. Impossible to really comment on them.

We know enough to know that the hegemony ruled with an iron fist and was similar to iran or north korea. And I know becasue I did as much research as I could on them because I absolutley love the batarians, they're probably the most interesting race in the whole game becasue they're most like us, they have all the flaws we humans have and serve as a 'what if the humans had tried to go it alone' type story.

But we don't know the inner workings of their society. Being ruled with an iron fist, doesn't mean that the people aren't prosperous.

The turians themselves have an autocratic government, and they are clearly content and prosperous.

[sAxMoNkI]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

sAxMoNkI wrote...

You can't seriously be telling me you think the Krogan were portrayed in a good light? What of the batarians? Their hegemony was REPEATEDLY criticised in game.

The Krogan, by the end of the game, provided that the genophage was cured, and they have the correct leaders, and their society is reformed in a better manner, are portrayed in an overwhelmingly positive light, even though these leaders express expansionist tendencies even before the genophage was cured. 
And we know very little about the Hegemony, and it's people. Impossible to really comment on them.

Actually we know a fair amount about the Hegemony.
- They actively engage in hostilites with the Systems Alliance and try to disrupt and antagonise them wherever possible
- They have frosty relations with council species
- Slavery is entirely acceptable
- They run under a caste system
- Numerous in-game references to people trying to escape the hegemony and slavers
- Brutal prisons (Arrival DLC shed more light on this for example)
- Implied that they are in economic crisis (Paper tiger etc). Personally I seem them as similar to North Korea.

Also Re: the Krogan, you have put a lot of prerequisites in the beginning of that sentence. More importantly even WITH all those stabilising elements its implied that they most likely try to expand once more. I concede that Wrex does say he will try diplomatic methods but if they fail you think his people won't try and overthrow him?

Modifié par sAxMoNkI, 08 mai 2012 - 09:44 .

[Catamantaloedis]

sAxMoNkI wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

sAxMoNkI wrote...

You can't seriously be telling me you think the Krogan were portrayed in a good light? What of the batarians? Their hegemony was REPEATEDLY criticised in game.

The Krogan, by the end of the game, provided that the genophage was cured, and they have the correct leaders, and their society is reformed in a better manner, are portrayed in an overwhelmingly positive light, even though these leaders express expansionist tendencies even before the genophage was cured. 
And we know very little about the Hegemony, and it's people. Impossible to really comment on them.

Actually we know a fair amount about the Hegemony.
- They actively engage in hostilites with the Systems Alliance and try to disrupt and antagonise them wherever possible
- They have frosty relations with council species
- Slavery is entirely acceptable
- They run under a caste system
- Numerous in-game references to people trying to escape the hegemony and slavers
- Brutal prisons (Arrival DLC shed more light on this for example)
- Implied that they are in economic crisis (Paper tiger etc). Personally I seem them as similar to North Korea.

Also Re: the Krogan, you have put a lot of prerequisites in the beginning of that sentence. More importantly even WITH all those stabilising elements its implied that they most likely try to expand once more. I concede that Wrex does say he will try diplomatic methods but if they fail you think his people won't try and overthrow him?

If his people did try to overthrow him, it will be because of the clanlike nature of their civilization, not because it is autocratic.

And this is not the point.

Can you really deny that politicians and democracy are not presented in a favorable light in this series?

[GLR-0053]

What was the original argument of this thread?

Oh right how BioWare supports Fascism, Militarism and Dictatorship. Yet you could only highlight Mass Effect 3 instead of there other works...lame.

[Catamantaloedis]

Catamantaloedis wrote...
Maybe I've got it wrong.

Maybe it's not Bioware, but EA.

[HunLevente]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

xsdob wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

xsdob wrote...

Anyone up for spamming this thread into a lockdown?

Is the truth that frightening?

No, but your post doesn't do a good job at showing the truth.

Bioware paints the military leaders and militaristic government in a positive light. While there is not 1 sympathetic democratic figure. In fact, they are portrayed as greedy, incompetent, and generally stupid.
Ergo, Mass Effect clearly has a theme of militarism and dictatorship as a preferable form of government to liberal  democracy.

There is one: Counciler Esheel

And a question: Are you seriously say that BioWare are againt western democracies or Do you have a lot of time thinking on nonsense or are you just making jokes?

[Captain Noodle]

Congratulations, this is officially the worst thread on BSN right now.

[GLR-0053]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...
Maybe I've got it wrong.

Maybe it's not Bioware, but EA.

EA is a business they have Share holders who want a Return On Their Investment so promoting an political agenda is not even remotely one of their priorities. Its all about Maximizing Profits and Minimizing Cost.

[CmnDwnWrkn]

This thread is a joke, right? I mean, the argument is so poorly articulated...it must be.

[Catamantaloedis]

HunLevente wrote...

There is one: Counciler Esheel

And a question: Are you seriously say that BioWare are againt western democracies or Do you have a lot of time thinking on nonsense or are you just making jokes?

Is Esheel a Salarian? You must be joking. 

And to the first part of your question, the answer is yes.

[Catamantaloedis]

GLR-0053 wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...
Maybe I've got it wrong.

Maybe it's not Bioware, but EA.

EA is a business they have Share holders who want a Return On Their Investment so promoting an political agenda is not even remotely one of their priorities. Its all about Maximizing Profits and Minimizing Cost.

Because businesses have never used their influence to spread political messages.

[Catamantaloedis]

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

This thread is a joke, right? I mean, the argument is so poorly articulated...it must be.

So you have nothing to add of relevance, right?

Move along.

[Silhouett3]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

Silhouett3 wrote...

OP, what's your take on the individualist, territorial, solitary attitude of Krogans and the pure-software, data sharing Geth, are they an example of ideal militaristic fascist society too?

The Krogan are not territorial. They're expansionist. Always have been.
The Geth, are in a way, a form of direct democracy with their Consensus. But their government is important and they don't have politicians. They're robots.

Oh no Krogan are very territorial and  individualistic. Even with their own kind. I think the Codex entry about Krogan society explains it in detail.

They tend to favor their personal gain instead of the benefit of group. That's why their "clans" are constantly at war and Krogan society have no one specific leadership over all. Such a state if absolutely opposed, discouraged and punished by the militaristic fascist societies, isn't that right?

And Geth are, in principle, pure democratic society  where every view point is considered at every decision. They don't share to satisfy the demands of one goverment consisted from a smaller group of individuals, they share directly for the sake of their society.

[sAxMoNkI]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

sAxMoNkI wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

sAxMoNkI wrote...

You can't seriously be telling me you think the Krogan were portrayed in a good light? What of the batarians? Their hegemony was REPEATEDLY criticised in game.

The Krogan, by the end of the game, provided that the genophage was cured, and they have the correct leaders, and their society is reformed in a better manner, are portrayed in an overwhelmingly positive light, even though these leaders express expansionist tendencies even before the genophage was cured. 
And we know very little about the Hegemony, and it's people. Impossible to really comment on them.

Actually we know a fair amount about the Hegemony.
- They actively engage in hostilites with the Systems Alliance and try to disrupt and antagonise them wherever possible
- They have frosty relations with council species
- Slavery is entirely acceptable
- They run under a caste system
- Numerous in-game references to people trying to escape the hegemony and slavers
- Brutal prisons (Arrival DLC shed more light on this for example)
- Implied that they are in economic crisis (Paper tiger etc). Personally I seem them as similar to North Korea.

Also Re: the Krogan, you have put a lot of prerequisites in the beginning of that sentence. More importantly even WITH all those stabilising elements its implied that they most likely try to expand once more. I concede that Wrex does say he will try diplomatic methods but if they fail you think his people won't try and overthrow him?

If his people did try to overthrow him, it will be because of the clanlike nature of their civilization, not because it is autocratic.

And this is not the point.

Can you really deny that politicians and democracy are not presented in a favorable light in this series?

I can deny it in fact. One of the biggest choices in ME1 is to save the council or let them die. You can then push for a human centric council if you wish. Conversely you can save the council because you believe that each race needs a voice etc.

I find it funny that you argue Bioware is pushing an agenda in a game based on choice where many different political, ethical and philosophical viewpoints can be championed.

Shepard can play as a human centric, power hungry would be dictator
Shepard can also be a selfless, altruistic, democratic servant of the people.
The point is that if Bioware was pushing an agenda these would not be possibilities.

[GLR-0053]

Catamantaloedis wrote...

GLR-0053 wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...

Catamantaloedis wrote...
Maybe I've got it wrong.

Maybe it's not Bioware, but EA.

EA is a business they have Share holders who want a Return On Their Investment so promoting an political agenda is not even remotely one of their priorities. Its all about Maximizing Profits and Minimizing Cost.

Because businesses have never used their influence to spread political messages.

That is your assertion, and a business like EA has more to worry about than politics. They have to worry about the people who invested in their company.