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[OH-UP-THIS!]

Makrys wrote...

From Tuchanka with Love wrote...

By the way, the theory is hogwash. It's more contrived than the ending we got.

That was very informative what with all that evidence and information you backed up your statement with. Impressive.

Yeah, wow!! impressive indeed. I appreciate the.....................................especially.

have a nice evening.

[Ownaholic]

Makrys wrote...

Ownaholic wrote...

Makrys wrote...

Kailjaiden wrote...

Wonder if the developers have watched this...

It just came out. I highly doubt it. But I do NOT doubt that at least one of them might give it a view in the future, if it gets enough attention and is brought to their attention enough by the fans.

I've already tweeted it to Sir Hudson and Lady Merizan. So we'll see...

Hudson hasn't been on twitter in weeks. Understandably so... lol

I would shoot it at Weekes and Gamble specifically. They seem to be the most active with the community. Merizan is just a community manager. She doesn't call the shots like the other two (writer and producer)

Good point.
Tweeted again to Gamble, Weekes, and then just for the fun of it: Karpyshyn and Hulick.

[Auralius Carolus]

Alright, I'm gonna skip some of the minor issues and make some larger criticisms here, for the OP to consider in possible amendment:

#1. The notion that Shepard can beat Indoctrination "Once and for all" has no standing in the lore. A victory over attempted indoctrination is temporary; the nanite-based implants remain within the subject, who will continue to be affected by indoctrination. It is largely hinted at, that even if the indoctrinating Reaper is killed, the effect can continue.

#2. The presence of the the trees and shrubs CAN make sense, and some additional ones do appear after the beam. Aside from the new inserts, much like the child being seen both consciously and subconsciously, the trees and shrubs are signs of Shepard losing touch with what is real and what is not.

#3. Moving Walls can be seen in the Citadel, as visible with the path cleared for Shepard and the shifting rows running alongside the stream of biological fluid under the bridge. Albeit, the connection to the Shadow Broker is strong, the "moving walls" can still be perceived.

#4. While 1M1 may or may not be intentional, the notion of the host's and the Reapers' wills converging is paramount to the notion of indoctrination.

#5. Your location appears to actually be on the Citadel Tower, although you are at its base, not on top, (the Crucible docks at the underside of the base). As neither Shepard nor Anderson recall a place like this, it is likely that you are supposed to be in the Keeper Tunnels, the depths of which are largely unexplored or inaccessable. Seeing as the Keepers were ment to summon the Reapers into each cycle, it is reasonable to assume that they have their own personal Citadel control console that is hidden from other beings.

#6. Humanity is not the only race found worthy to be copied by the Reapers. Each "Reaper", visible from the outside, is a role-specific armored vessel. The actual Reaper- the biometal construct- exists within the vessel and largely reflects the source species, physically.

#7. Shepard didn't wipe out the Batarians, he only killed off a single colony.

#8. "I know you've thought about destroying us..."- you claim that this cannot be argued against, but it can. The metaphysical origin of the Reaper is likely Thomas Hobbes, who created "The Leviathan". The Leviathan discusses how a society submits to a mastermind and willing transfers their rights and wills to the "Sovereign". The Sovereign becomes a single entity imbued with the unyielding support of its society. This is the literal biological origin of the Reapers and likely represents their existance as a whole- they are many, but in spirit, one. Therefore, the Catalyst is one with the Reapers, indoctrination or not. Its will and desire extend through them, making them both all powerful and without value; singular and nearly-infinite all at once.

#9. The likely "canon" origin of Shepard's Indoctrination is with Object Rho, which holds ties to TIM's indoctrination and in the following battle Harbinger declares that Shepard's mind would be his. That was in the last moments of the last DLC in the previous game. The first scene in ME3, as seen through Shepard, is of the Child playing outside. This narrative link is highly significant, IMO.

Just a few notes. Take with them what you will.

[Ownaholic]

Auralius Carolus wrote...

Alright, I'm gonna skip some of the minor issues and make some larger criticisms here, for the OP to consider in possible amendment:

#1. The notion that Shepard can beat Indoctrination "Once and for all" has no standing in the lore. A victory over attempted indoctrination is temporary; the nanite-based implants remain within the subject, who will continue to be affected by indoctrination. It is largely hinted at, that even if the indoctrinating Reaper is killed, the effect can continue.

#2. The presence of the the trees and shrubs CAN make sense, and some additional ones do appear after the beam. Aside from the new inserts, much like the child being seen both consciously and subconsciously, the trees and shrubs are signs of Shepard losing touch with what is real and what is not.

#3. Moving Walls can be seen in the Citadel, as visible with the path cleared for Shepard and the shifting rows running alongside the stream of biological fluid under the bridge. Albeit, the connection to the Shadow Broker is strong, the "moving walls" can still be perceived.

#4. While 1M1 may or may not be intentional, the notion of the host's and the Reapers' wills converging is paramount to the notion of indoctrination.

#5. Your location appears to actually be on the Citadel Tower, although you are at its base, not on top, (the Crucible docks at the underside of the base). As neither Shepard nor Anderson recall a place like this, it is likely that you are supposed to be in the Keeper Tunnels, the depths of which are largely unexplored or inaccessable. Seeing as the Keepers were ment to summon the Reapers into each cycle, it is reasonable to assume that they have their own personal Citadel control console that is hidden from other beings.

#6. Humanity is not the only race found worthy to be copied by the Reapers. Each "Reaper", visible from the outside, is a role-specific armored vessel. The actual Reaper- the biometal construct- exists within the vessel and largely reflects the source species, physically.

#7. Shepard didn't wipe out the Batarians, he only killed off a single colony.

#8. "I know you've thought about destroying us..."- you claim that this cannot be argued against, but it can. The metaphysical origin of the Reaper is likely Thomas Hobbes, who created "The Leviathan". The Leviathan discusses how a society submits to a mastermind and willing transfers their rights and wills to the "Sovereign". The Sovereign becomes a single entity imbued with the unyielding support of its society. This is the literal biological origin of the Reapers and likely represents their existance as a whole- they are many, but in spirit, one. Therefore, the Catalyst is one with the Reapers, indoctrination or not. Its will and desire extend through them, making them both all powerful and without value; singular and nearly-infinite all at once.

#9. The likely "canon" origin of Shepard's Indoctrination is with Object Rho, which holds ties to TIM's indoctrination and in the following battle Harbinger declares that Shepard's mind would be his. That was in the last moments of the last DLC in the previous game. The first scene in ME3, as seen through Shepard, is of the Child playing outside. This narrative link is highly significant, IMO.

Just a few notes. Take with them what you will.

Good stuff Auralius. In the name of good debate I'll attempt to address these issues as gentlemanly as possible. xD

1) I suppose you're right; but my reaction to that is "so what" (I mean that in the most innocent, non-****y-way possible). It doesn't exactly change anything about the theory, other than the fact that Shepard is just fighting off indoctrination, one way or another.  In fact, that would mean we could even see another indoc attempt in future DLC, which would be cool.

2) Others have shown me some instances where there are trees that magically appear, but my response to them is that the developers may have just assumed the trees were there already since there were others present when charging down the hill. Maybe they got confused because they were being pushed for time. Maybe they wanted to add to the surrealism. Maybe they just made a mistake. Or maybe you guys are right; after hearing about that newer evidence in regard to the trees magically appearing, I'd likely go back and tick it up to a reluctant plausible.

3) I thought about this myself. BUT, "moving walls" means "moving walls". It produces an extremely specific type of mental image: a wall that moves. Not shield platings, doors, or even floors, but WALLS. And none of ANY of the rooms' perimeter walls move, ever.

4) Certainly a convincing and convenient link, but I think this was not intentional as stated in the video. We already saw these in ME1, and during that time, there was a very, very different ending being considered. However, it's too subjective and someone could come right back and say "Convergence was also happening back in ME1's ending, so it makes sense there too, and they just reused the theory here". So, that's why I ended up giving it a plausible. I couldn't DEFINITIVELY disprove it, and ended up actually finding even more evidence for it before I finished. I still don't like it though *old man grumble*.

5) This is definitely something I never considered. But you're absolutely right, the crucible lands on the bottom of the citadel tower. It makes sense for these to be the keeper tunnels, never-before-seen. But, if this was a sealed-off area that was only to be opened now, how did the Keepers get there to begin with? Same with the "no control panels" aspect. What are they all working on? But as for the placement itself, you could be very right.

6) I meant in this cycle, and in the most recent cycles, as evidenced in Mass Effect 2. They specifically have a hard-on for the humans due to their genetic adaptability; something the Reapers need to continue the cycles.

7) I said "effectively" wiped out. Not the same thing as "completely". At least not in my own personal brain-dictionary. I figured that was an appropriate term to use, because the Batarians were ALREADY almost extinct. That was basically their last major colony. So, he "effectively" wipes them out.

8) I'm actually very familiar with Hobbes and The Leviathan (go philosophy 101 a few years ago!), but I think that's a bit of a stretch. Obviously the relevance is clearly intended between The Leviathan and the ME series, but in this particular instance, I don't see how it applies. Even if it's true, it still means the starchild is a reaper, or of reaper origin. Yet he claims to be the catalyst, and never explicity states that he IS one with the reapers. Rather, he implies that he is above the Reapers.
But if this is true, AND if what I said is true, in either case, the starchild is subjected to the Reaper influence, which was never made clear to the player or Shepard, and therefore we can assume that the starchild has an agenda, and ultimately, is just the Reapers trying to indoctrinate Shepard to do as they wish. Just more evidence when you look at it that way.

9) I had thought about including the Object Rho concepts, but figured I'd just leave them out for everybody to figure out on their own. The fact of "when" indoctrination starts isn't really relevant to the theory, IMO. However, you brought up an excellent point I'd never considered about the ending of the DLC coinciding with the intro to ME3. That would certainly be Harbinger doing as he claimed: Beginning the manipulation.


PHEW. Glad that's over! You're good at this, I'll give you that. xD

Modifié par Ownaholic, 09 mai 2012 - 07:47 .

[Auralius Carolus]

Ownaholic wrote...

PHEW. Glad that's over! You're good at this, I'll give you that. xD

Assisted Socratic Method: we run each other through the ringer until we're left with bits of gold at the bottom of the tray.

I enjoy working on the IT way too much.

For instance, were you aware that there were more connections to the events in the dreams than the Rachni Queen and personal interpretation? Virtually every aspect of them, (with exception to basic stuff, like the trees),- including their very nature as vivid reoccuring nightmares- are symptomatic of extremely high levels of EMF exposure, the exact same energy frequency tied to Indoctrination? This includes the doppleganger of Shepard, which also has a narrative significance, (which you did note).

Where as the ending used to trouble me, now it's intriguing.

Anyway, thanks for taking the time to keep up on your threads and make the movie.

[Ownaholic]

Auralius Carolus wrote...

Ownaholic wrote...

PHEW. Glad that's over! You're good at this, I'll give you that. xD

Assisted Socratic Method: we run each other through the ringer until we're left with bits of gold at the bottom of the tray.

I enjoy working on the IT way too much.

For instance, were you aware that there were more connections to the events in the dreams than the Rachni Queen and personal interpretation? Virtually every aspect of them, (with exception to basic stuff, like the trees),- including their very nature as vivid reoccuring nightmares- are symptomatic of extremely high levels of EMF exposure, the exact same energy frequency tied to Indoctrination? This includes the doppleganger of Shepard, which also has a narrative significance, (which you did note).

Where as the ending used to trouble me, now it's intriguing.

Anyway, thanks for taking the time to keep up on your threads and make the movie.

I hadn't noticed that actually. Definitely something of note, that's for sure. Damn radiation. It's Chernobyl all over again.

I'm still nervous about how the EC is going to turn out, because of Bioware's reluctance to admit their mistakes. But I still have hope (Obviously, haha).

But thank YOU for watching, and for putting so much of your own time into adding to the theory and topic! =D 
Like I said in my "Behind the Scenes" video that I linked to in the credits, "I do more fanservice than Bioware".

[Lakeshow1986]

Very good video, I would like your thougjts on the idea that the catalyst presents shepard to a new "solution", the illusion of choice. Shepard has resisted indoc, this is the reapers final attempt to inndoctrinate shepard, he is afterall the first organic to make it this far. This cannot be literally because of the 1m1, someone wouldve had to write that unless it was in shepards mind.

The current solution to work on Shepards willpower will no longer work, a new solution is to offer the illusion of choice to finally bring shepard to accept the reapers.

[Torrible]

Awesome. Seen a little and I'll get to the rest eventually but nice work!

[Ownaholic]

Torrible wrote...

Awesome. Seen a little and I'll get to the rest eventually but nice work!

Lies and slander. You must watch the rest now. *ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL*. NOW! xD

But seriously, thanks for the kind words. =D

[Ultra Prism]

The best part of document ... DREAM FOLIAGE!!! wow thats some cracking done ... strongest evidence so far

[MegumiAzusa]

Only watched 20 mins so far but there are some points that are flawed:

The fade to white: this is a common transition in Mass Effect and Dragon Age games. Even with the stylized darkened edges.


The flashing light in the background: the beam emits flashes some times, even when running towards the beam. Just look on the ground and wait if you really can't see it.


The trees: yes there are trees left and right, but if you wake up and turn left you see two trees that were not there before.


The piles of bodies: sorry to disappoint but there are piles already there:

Just look at the left and right side, the blobs with the repeating texture, they are in the same position as after the beam, you looked to far to the right in your video and blocked the pile with your character.

[Grimgaww]

Ultra Prism wrote...

The best part of document ... DREAM FOLIAGE!!! wow thats some cracking done ... strongest evidence so far

That's just what ME series needs, a dream ending.

So bad and sad.

[MegumiAzusa]

Auralius Carolus wrote...

#3. Moving Walls can be seen in the Citadel, as visible with the path cleared for Shepard and the shifting rows running alongside the stream of biological fluid under the bridge. Albeit, the connection to the Shadow Broker is strong, the "moving walls" can still be perceived.

In my opinion the moving walls aren't the panels that connect both sides of the chasm. If you look at the walls straight ahead you will see them as a flat wall, but when in the middle of the chasm they, like the panels, start to move. Some parts are pulled in, others pushed out.

[Hakuyu]

Just finished watching. Excellent work in putting this together.

[From Tuchanka with Love]

Also, your point on "souls" is irrelevant. Have you ever observed a soul? I don't believe in souls and neither would my Shepard.

[UrgentArchengel]

Honestly, I did not know about the dream foliage. Also, with out going religious here, What is a soul. Technically if something is alive, has feelings, thoughts, hopes, it has a soul.

[Erield]

Finished watching the second half of the video now (I'll watch the first half tomorrow haha.)

About the strategy guide referring to a final battle: The Final Hours app tells us that the final battle idea was scrapped, because...I forget the exact words. But basically Hudson said, 'A final boss battle just to have a final boss battle would be too video-gamey.' Which people have mocked him mercilessly for on the forums.

I started typing up more to this post, but it was more alternative explanations for what is presented as evidence for IT, and so I have deleted it all! I will restate that for the most part, most of what I have seen in the video so far is very well-done. Even for skeptics of IT, it's not necessarily a "waste of time" to watch it if you find the idea itself intriguing (as I do.) While the video clearly has a bias in favor of IT, there is also a clear line of logical thought presented behind each claim of evidence in support of IT.

[Sodapop VII]

Can we get a positive ID on the 'dream foliage' being used before but then re-colored for the mystery planet? It is plausible they would just use the same name file if reusing it.

I am kind of glad we did not get that Illusive Man final battle... when was he ever the main antagonist of the series? And I thought the design from the art book looked kind of... rubbish.

[Dendio1]

Great vid. I swear all this ending debate had spawned so much quality footage, discussion and discovery.....its almost better than if bioware had given us a generic happy ending.

[UrgentArchengel]

Right now, I'd rather Bioware just spill the beans. Mostly because I hate beans, but I think I made my point. Lol.

[Drake-Shepard]

ooo a few new facts i wasn't aware of BUT you completely missed the point of the final choice.

It is not a test about weather the geth have souls

The geth do have a soul, that was the whole point of the rannoch mission dialogue.And everything you learn points to this and their peaceful nature (which also rules out technological singularity/chaos theory- which you explained well)

-Geth didn't attack quarians first
-Only attacked them in self defense
-allowed some quarians to remain
-they remember the sacrifices that the quarians that tried to save them made,
-wanted to live in peace on that space station originally

-and just to drum it in... EDI falls in love

You can't just say it was a trick or not true to fit your theory unless there was some sort of foreshadowing  that they don't have a soul...which there wasn't.

(except javik, who is just racist) infact if you want to back up your point you need to include javik;s dialogue about synthetics to give it some credibility. I would argue that this was simply added/spliced in (along with rannoch reaper dialogue) later to foreshadow the last minute 'chaos theory'. Which the IT theory debunks anyway because it assumes the starchild and rannoch reaper are lieing/manipulating you/setting up indoctrination all along.

EDI even talks about legion directly after the rannoch mission .. ''referred to itself as 'I' instead of 'we' '' ''In its last moments it was not an avatar of the geth consensus ....it was a person''




In that final choice the star child is simply painting a scenario in which Destroy looks like the most distasteful option, because it claims you will destroy geth and EDI, while the other options will save them. Starchild also says you will die. lol. Everything is just a dirty trick. No matter what the starchild claims you pick the destroy option no matter what the consequences.

remember indoctrination painted similar no win situations for TIM and Saren. Shepard's weakness is his acceptance of EDI and the Geth as alive so starchild is simply using that against you.

Your video was brilliant, but that part you went from fact to opinion got painful to watch. You were on the right track but used outside influence as evidence when there was evidence contradicting that already in the game. i would hate to see your otherwise well made video judged on that one point. Remember people who are against indoc theory will disprove one non-critical point and believe it debunks everything lol.

For the record i am 50/50

Modifié par Drake-Shepard, 09 mai 2012 - 11:33 .

[Lost Mercenary]

Just finished watching.

If anything this has certainly renewed my hope that the IT is true and that it'll be reflected in the Extended Cut. Mind you my hopes have a habit of being crushed in regards to Mass Effect 3

[ReXspec]

Great video, dude. Unbiased but with a personal touch of experience. I'm also inclined to agree with you on all counts--the IT is the only way they can salvage the ending without a serious overhaul on the ending.

[MegumiAzusa]

Seriously people, you just accept everything you are given? I would love it if IT were true as it's ingenious, it is just this video has quite a few flaws, in the first 20 minutes alone there are 4, or more. Ignoring or skewing facts doesn't help the cause :/

I'd rather have a shorter video without any flaws.

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Only watched 20 mins so far but there are some points that are flawed:

The fade to white: this is a common transition in Mass Effect and Dragon Age games. Even with the stylized darkened edges.


The flashing light in the background: the beam emits flashes some times, even when running towards the beam. Just look on the ground and wait if you really can't see it.


The trees: yes there are trees left and right, but if you wake up and turn left you see two trees that were not there before.


The piles of bodies: sorry to disappoint but there are piles already there:

Just look at the left and right side, the blobs with the repeating texture, they are in the same position as after the beam, you looked to far to the right in your video and blocked the pile with your character.

Modifié par MegumiAzusa, 09 mai 2012 - 12:24 .