82 réponses à ce sujet

[Gecon]

I think that DA is much like I expected - story rocks, quests rock, rulesystem - ok, better than I expected, but could use a tweak here or there.

[Gracchio]

Metalnun wrote...

Yeah, definetely one of the best RPG ever created. Intriguing chars, interesting plot (despite not particularly original), very tactical combat, high replayability.
In my RPG top list along with Torment, BG 2, KotOR, Fallout 3, Morrowind and the second Eye of the Beholder

Not to mention the partial nudity everywhere

[LunSei Sleidee]

Gabochido wrote...


And know that we will continue to try to support and improve the franchise and these forums are a great way to get ideas on what our fans want and what we need to work on.

.....You mean, a supereasy game with a lot of ****** an nudity and a cheap fps-style of non-tactical gameplay and spawning mmorpg-like enemies and useless sidequests????? :/ *sigh*


Anyway, yeah, to keep on topic. I wasn't especting much from Dragon Age, because those video trailers were..... just bad. But once I got to play it, I was actually blown away. This game is magnificent and it gets better and better as I keep playing. There's absolutely no word to express how amazed and, well, kind of moved, I am to find out that even in these modern days of cheap, commercial and soulless videogames, there still is someone who is making a good old Baldur's Gate type of game, with such a wonderfully written story.

[RetrOldSchool]

LunSei Sleidee wrote...

Gabochido wrote...


And know that we will continue to try to support and improve the franchise and these forums are a great way to get ideas on what our fans want and what we need to work on.

.....You mean, a supereasy game with a lot of ****** an nudity and a cheap fps-style of non-tactical gameplay and spawning mmorpg-like enemies and useless sidequests????? :/ *sigh*

Yay! Titz and gunzzzz! Now if we only can fit in Master Chief + some WoW emotes in that concept we might get a winner!

On the real though, Bioware will hopefully ignore the part of the community who come up with that kind of "improvements", since that part is the gamers who don't really like the DA format and gameplay. I think they'll stick with the formula and use the conctructive critique they get from the  DA-fanbase' (the gamers who really enjoy the game).

For me it's definitely up there with the best of em, even though I got it for 360. I thought I would miss the tactical view, but I'd say I only miss it in the hardest battles when I want to be able to order positions to my party, thats a bit irritating that I have to manually control and move every party member myself... But that could be fixed with a "move" command similar to how AOE spells are controlled on the console version. Sorry, got side tracked...

Anyway, I love the game and I rank it among the best ever. I'm having a hard time comparing it to BG & BG2, simply because it's so many years since I played the BG series. And I'm still not sure if I will rank it higher than ME (considering ME is a part of a trilogy and therefore more than a game and has a more original story and universe).

One thing I have to admitt with DA is that I can't stop thinking about it when I'm not playing it . I've had that with a bunch of really great games (FFVII, FFXII, Xenogears, Phantasy Star IV, ME, Fallout3) but never as bad as this!

I keep considering where to go next once I'm finished with my current quest, who to talk to in my next camp visit, what character and class to start playing next etc etc. And NO game ever has made me create a forum account and spill my guts on a regular basis on a game forum... So I guess I'll have to give it to DA:O

[Zenon]

I must say (again), that Bioware made all those RPG titles I enjoyed most in my life. I'm 39 and my first steps in the RPG world started with Pen&Paper and Bard's Tale 1 (on the C64!). Follow up was "Wasteland" (also C64!), Pool of Radiance (C64), Ultima IV (Amiga, somehow the other ones didn't thrill me as much anymore), kinda missed out a bit on BG, because I got my PC fairly late and my first Bioware RPG was actually NWN. I have a value pack of BG series, but with DA:O I can't bring myself to play those.



I actually wonder if I missed FF becoming a real RPG? They may be good games, but concerning RPG I'm more an old school guy with very detailed character development and storytelling, dialogue, etc. make up a good portion of the game. I have to add probably, that I never had a console and don't know some mentioned games like Mario (isn't that jump&run?). Just being curious.



I'm also curious about how the pen&paper RPG will be designed. In fact I see quite a difference in design approach between computer RPG and pen&paper and am sceptical of this to work out well and at the same time bring enough innovation to compete with the established systems with a healthy balance between rule details and playability. If I had enough time for pen&paper, I'd probably stick with RoleMaster or D&D, sorry guys.



Idea: Something that might work even better as additional fun for players could be a nice trading card game. There is quite some outstanding artwork in the game, which could be easily reproduced on such cards.

[Sam -stone- serious]

Eurypterid wrote...

Sam -stone- serious wrote...

For me out of the Bioware games DAO only rates second starting from last (last being Jade Empire). The game lacks a lot of what makes an RPG game and having played nearly ALL western and eastern RPGs for the past 19 years (started playing RPGs at 10 and now i am almost 30) i cant shake the feeling that DAO is a new franchise to capture the new and young players mostly. Us old dogs with bags of experience can see it as clear as day. 

I'm an older dog than you (45), and I'm curious what you think it lacks. I'm not saying it's the best ever, but I find it has almost everything I look for in an RPG, so I'd be interested to hear what you think is missing.

I have said this is numerous other threads but i will do so here again.

What i find the game lacks.

- Freedom of movement, you go from one point of interest to the next with the game holding your hand
- classes have nothing to show for themselves except in combat (for example in DnD games Druids could talk to animals, in other games summoners could comune with demons and such etc.)
- The world does not change while the gameplay is going on and you dont experience anything until the end with a few written words.
- Restrictions, restrictions and more restrictions to everything, invisible walls etc.
- Combat focused RPGs such as this needs more character customization that the simplified mess we got
- The guilds and factions in the game have nothing to show for themselves in gameplay terms
- The lore of the game is only for show off, you are never going to be finding anything of what you are reading except the points of interest
- progression is unbalanced
- badly judged combat encounters
- gameplay is never captivating enough and most of the time feels like a chore more than anything (this is a personal opinion)
- incoherences everywhere, combat, story, sidequest intervention, you name it.

These are but a few of the nigles i have with the game. Of course its nice that its a new IP and not one of the older ones so i guess the focus of the game was meant to be something else so in the end i guess my preference is more in the older games of Bioware such as Baldurs Gate Saga and Neverwinter Nights. Still in a game that is considered to be a spiritual successor to Baldurs Gate it fell too far off the tree to be considered as such.

[Drag0n-RD]

A simple bump for a thread that doesn't deserve to fade out of the first page. I agree with it DA:O is superb.

[Zenon]

[quote]Sam -stone- serious wrote...

[quote]Eurypterid wrote...

[quote]Sam -stone- serious wrote...

For me out of the Bioware games DAO only rates second starting from last (last being Jade Empire). The game lacks a lot of what makes an RPG game and having played nearly ALL western and eastern RPGs for the past 19 years (started playing RPGs at 10 and now i am almost 30) i cant shake the feeling that DAO is a new franchise to capture the new and young players mostly. Us old dogs with bags of experience can see it as clear as day.  [/quote]

I'm an older dog than you (45), and I'm curious what you think it lacks. I'm not saying it's the best ever, but I find it has almost everything I look for in an RPG, so I'd be interested to hear what you think is missing.

[/quote]

I have said this is numerous other threads but i will do so here again.

What i find the game lacks.

- Freedom of movement, you go from one point of interest to the next with the game holding your hand[/quote]

Don't need that. NWN, which you considered good obviously, didn't have that either. Especially not NWN2. I prefer well made places with meaningful events to long walks through a large open world with occasional random encounters to occupy my time while walking from one place to the other. You are free to disagree, since this is my opinion of course.
[quote]
- classes have nothing to show for themselves except in combat (for example in DnD games Druids could talk to animals, in other games summoners could comune with demons and such etc.)[/quote]

I hardly played a Druid, save for NWN2 as companion. Never used some kind of animal talk. Don't have the feeling I missed something. Communing with demons was implemented in modules, where it served the story. But I never saw my sorcerer chit-chat with a summoned demon, because I only needed them to defeat my enemies. Pointless request. Besides in DA:O rangers can summon creatures. Obviously they communicate in a way to make the creature help fighting the enemies.

[quote]
- The world does not change while the gameplay is going on and you dont experience anything until the end with a few written words. [/quote]


There are changes in the game world during play. Depending on who you support during your quests you'll have different allies in the end. Also I think the player shouldn't be able to control everything.


[quote]
- Restrictions, restrictions and more restrictions to everything, invisible walls etc. [/quote]


Tell me one game without any restrictions. I admit in a few instances I felt like I should be able to walk somewhere preventet by the pathfinding or level design of the game. Other than that I guess it's your personal gripe.


[quote]
- Combat focused RPGs such as this needs more character customization that the simplified mess we got[/quote]


I think it is customizable enough. I also like the logic, that you need to learn weaker spells (e.g. grasp of winter) before being able to learn to create a blizzard. In D&D you can learn fireball without having a clue about burning hands. Also there are some interesting spells, that may have been neat, but as far as I can see wouldn't add substantial more interesting content or gameplay to DA:O. It's quite likely though, that more diverse and refined skills and classes will appear as the series continues.


[quote]
- The guilds and factions in the game have nothing to show for themselves in gameplay terms[/quote]


Perhaps something like a membership in some organization is missing. Although there is one obiously, where you can join. Being already "member" of the Grey Wardens your destiny is already chosen. You can still make decisions in favour or against some faction, but apart from being rewarded the consequences are little. On the other hand the Grey Wardens are quite independent, so why should they have any problem with the chantry or any other organization? They kind of stand above common laws and local politics in gameplay terms.


[quote]
- The lore of the game is only for show off, you are never going to be finding anything of what you are reading except the points of interest[/quote]


I found a note telling me on how to reach a place by following certain landmarks with finding a special sword in the end. I found notes and hints about hidden places and mysterious persons, which often enough ended in some event related to my notes. You should go more into depth I guess.


[quote]
- progression is unbalanced
- badly judged combat encounters[/quote]


Balance is often experienced very subjectively by the players. Single player games don't need as much class balancing or progression balancing. In fact I'd find extremely smooth progress according to a mathematically proportional scale a lot more boring than this sense of accomplishment when e.g. I finally can learn to cast a huge fireball, open basically every lock, etc.


[quote]
- gameplay is never captivating enough and most of the time feels like a chore more than anything (this is a personal opinion)[/quote]


Subjective feeling. Almost every game has less captivating quests. Mostly these are the optional sidequests. DA:O does here a much better job than most games developed until today. I also had more fun and felt more ready to help my companions than in previous games.


[quote]
- incoherences everywhere, combat, story, sidequest intervention, you name it. [/quote]


While there are some minor errors, especially concerning some codex entries, I find the game well polished and complete already at V1.00! Seems you just feel not satisfied for some expectations not met and want to complain to feel better. Can't help you with that. Better luck next time.


[quote]
These are but a few of the nigles i have with the game. Of course its nice that its a new IP and not one of the older ones so i guess the focus of the game was meant to be something else so in the end i guess my preference is more in the older games of Bioware such as Baldurs Gate Saga and Neverwinter Nights. Still in a game that is considered to be a spiritual successor to Baldurs Gate it fell too far off the tree to be considered as such.
[/quote]

If you ask me, I'd rather play DA:O six times, than BG(1) twice. Probably a matter of personal preference. The pseudo 3D isometric view of BG was not my thing. Actually this and the slow movement kept me from ever finishing it in spite of the great story. Perhaps I'll start another attempt one day, if I ever get bored playing DA:O, ME, NWN (1&2), JE, KotOR, Vampire Bloodlines, etc.

ENCHANTMENT!!!

[fchopin]

Very good game, not the best but in my top 5.

[Magic Zarim]

For me, DA:O made a stab at The Witcher but it didn't knock that off the throne for me. DA:O is definitely up there though.

Strong points of the Witcher for me were:

-Main story line was very intriguing with quite some unexpected plot twists.
-Free-roam in large 'zones'. It didn't feel confined.
-Extremely well done BGM and main theme music. This really helped define atmosphere.
-Night/Day cycles, another immersion booster.
-Weather system and accordingly responding NPCs (townsfolk seeking shelter)
-Lively environments, random NPCs doing their own things
-Beautiful combat, decently paced, not necessarily fast past; never felt like a chore.

I finished the game in one marathon (in between working, eating and sleeping), was captivating till the end.

As for DA:O's strong points:

-Great story with plot twists.
-Focus on party interactions (the banter is just godly)
-Great detail to significant NPC personalities
-Character versatility, lots of choices offering a great replay value
-Interesting world setting.

Yeah, I know.. the DA:O list is shorter, but that's because The Witcher offers things that stand out / are done well that are simply not in DA:O.

I think Bioware could improve future iterations of DA signifficantly by adding these 'missing' things:

-The confined maps detract from the overall feel of epicness. The epicness comes from consuming the story and isn't supported by visuals / the map. The Witcher also has confined maps but they are much much larger, giving a sense of free-roam.

-Environment. In DA:O, Denerim feels stale to me. Yes, there are merchants standing about, but what's missing are ambient NPCs, NPCs like animals, pets, townsfolk interacting with each other. It's these things that add greatly to offering a "busy, lively" environment. I think Lothering did a better job at presenting a lively environment (refugees, caretakers) than Denerim ever did. This surely could receive more attention imo.

Another environmental thing is the weather and the day/night cycles; these add greatly to atmosphere and immersion as well. Granted, such systems don't offer much in the current inception where we have the small confined maps right now. These things would work a lot better in much larger maps when the player can / has to spend much more time in a given map.

Musical score: This is really a matter of taste. While DA:O's sound tracks were nice I didn't find them particularly outstanding.. dare I say, a bit generic. They didn't seem to support the environments in which they are played that well, apart from Orzamar which I think was the best soundtrack in the game given the environment in which it plays. DA:O is a dark fantasy setting. The musical score didn't really support that imo.

The greatest focus in DA:O in my opinion was on the main story and its significant characters (party members, named NPCs) and interactions between them and much less so on having the environments breathe 'epicness'. But then again, that's mostly because of the small maps and lesser attention to ambience (mundane NPCs, environmental effects like day/night/weather)

In conclusion, DA:O was worth every penny to me. I enjoyed it for what it's worth, a most excellent story and high quality main (N)PC interaction. It just misses out on a few things that for me, make The Witcher still keep the crown as best RPG for me.

Modifié par Magic Zarim, 09 décembre 2009 - 12:43 .

[Sam -stone- serious]

[quote]Zenon wrote...

I hardly played a Druid, save for NWN2 as companion. Never used some kind of animal talk. Don't have the feeling I missed something. Communing with demons was implemented in modules, where it served the story. But I never saw my sorcerer chit-chat with a summoned demon, because I only needed them to defeat my enemies. Pointless request. Besides in DA:O rangers can summon creatures. Obviously they communicate in a way to make the creature help fighting the enemies. [/quote]

This is not really an excuse. The game should have a more open ended environment and better interactivity that unrealistic things. Hehe i am a big bad mage but i cant burn a woden chest to open it, i need a rogue for that...fail. Even games that i do not expect to have a lot of interactivity (generaly J-RPGs) often surprise me and leave me enough freedom within the game boundaries. DAO on the other hand leaves non even within its boundaries.

[quote]
There are changes in the game world during play. Depending on who you support during your quests you'll have different allies in the end. Also I think the player shouldn't be able to control everything. [/quote]

It really does not. If i take baldurs gate as an example i will tell you only one of miriad such situations. There is a remote village that has people missing. My options to this are as numerous as i would like including to slaughter the lot of them just because the mayor didnt talk to me properly. Nothing is predetermined. At the end of this sidequest i will be having repercusions that will hunt me for the rest of the game and the world responding to my benevolence/ tyrany/ intelligence/ savior/ protector you name it.

And thats only one of the less interesting side quests.

[quote]
Tell me one game without any restrictions. I admit in a few instances I felt like I should be able to walk somewhere preventet by the pathfinding or level design of the game. Other than that I guess it's your personal gripe. [/quote]

I expect within the game world to be able to move and enter everywhere i like as well as interact with everything that can be interacted and then some. A  good case of point even if a small one is the locked boxes. Why in the nine hells am i not able to crush them, bash them, burn them, magicaly open them?  Why cant i mind control an NPC  through some means to fight for me? Why cant i kill someone, loot him and blame it on someone else if i get caught? Why cant i enter into almost every house and move freely in its map? Restrictions, restrictions and more restrictions.

[quote]
I think it is customizable enough. I also like the logic, that you need to learn weaker spells (e.g. grasp of winter) before being able to learn to create a blizzard. In D&D you can learn fireball without having a clue about burning hands. Also there are some interesting spells, that may have been neat, but as far as I can see wouldn't add substantial more interesting content or gameplay to DA:O. It's quite likely though, that more diverse and refined skills and classes will appear as the series continues.[/quote]

Its dumped down by a lot. You say that you learn to cast a fireball in DnD without learning burning hands first. Well i got news for you. You DO know how to cast burning hands because its a level 1 type spell and fireball is a level 3 type spell. You know how to cast all level 1 spells and in time do learn all 3rd level spells as well. Its perfectly logical. Even Diablo 2 had more customazation and better skill progression.

[quote]
Perhaps something like a membership in some organization is missing. Although there is one obiously, where you can join. Being already "member" of the Grey Wardens your destiny is already chosen. You can still make decisions in favour or against some faction, but apart from being rewarded the consequences are little. On the other hand the Grey Wardens are quite independent, so why should they have any problem with the chantry or any other organization? They kind of stand above common laws and local politics in gameplay terms. [/quote]

Being a member of a big faction should not restrict you from doing your own thing. In the Witcher you play a predetermined character as well but you are free to do however you wish within its game world and it has enough intrigue to sate your appetite. Besides shoudnt it be MY choice if i want to have a problem with the chantry or the Arls or whatever?

[quote]
I found a note telling me on how to reach a place by following certain landmarks with finding a special sword in the end. I found notes and hints about hidden places and mysterious persons, which often enough ended in some event related to my notes. You should go more into depth I guess. [/quote]

Far too few and not really interesting at all because it is predetermined that you WILL  be looking through it and will have no impact whatsoever in the rest of the game.

[quote]
Balance is often experienced very subjectively by the players. Single player games don't need as much class balancing or progression balancing. In fact I'd find extremely smooth progress according to a mathematically proportional scale a lot more boring than this sense of accomplishment when e.g. I finally can learn to cast a huge fireball, open basically every lock, etc. [/quote]

I am not talking about class balance at all, thats the last thing that concerns me. I am talking about progress stoping encounters, spike difficulty that its either way too easy or way too hard and often at the same time, choices that SHOULD  have a far bigger impact than none at all (one good such example is the choice of the dwarf king which it really changes nothing at all).


[quote]
Subjective feeling. Almost every game has less captivating quests. Mostly these are the optional sidequests. DA:O does here a much better job than most games developed until today. I also had more fun and felt more ready to help my companions than in previous games. [/quote]

This is why Baldurs Gate was such a hit. Including everything else you were never the focus of the story, each side quest was a potential "greater than yourself" situation, the main quest was epic and dangerous enough but it was personal, your companions all had their own agendas and all and everyone could spoil it for you not only from your choices but from the games world situations as well. Nothing was set in stone like it is in DAO.


[quote]
While there are some minor errors, especially concerning some codex entries, I find the game well polished and complete already at V1.00! Seems you just feel not satisfied for some expectations not met and want to complain to feel better. Can't help you with that. Better luck next time. [/quote]

Its not the first RPG i play you know. Older RPGs from the same developer even have done things much better and much more logicaly. I just never felt satisfied playing this game as i did with the older Bioware games (save for Jade Empire)


[quote]
If you ask me, I'd rather play DA:O six times, than BG(1) twice. Probably a matter of personal preference. The pseudo 3D isometric view of BG was not my thing. Actually this and the slow movement kept me from ever finishing it in spite of the great story. Perhaps I'll start another attempt one day, if I ever get bored playing DA:O, ME, NWN (1&2), JE, KotOR, Vampire Bloodlines, etc. [/quote]

And this is why i said its more of a preference in the end but the subjective "problems"  are there and i have already said. To some such limitations and restrictions wont be a problem but to me i feel like i am being lead too much and that for me is always a problem. Its the same reason as to why i found Final Fantasy 10 so bad.

[quote]
ENCHANTMENT!!!
[/quote]

W00F!! :happy:

[Adria Teksuni]

It seems to me you have just a few basic problems, rather than a whole list. (Note: Not using Diablo games as examples as I'm in the "they're not really RPGs" camp) Also, not trying to bash your opinion or even remotely close to it! Just giving my half a bit's worth.



1 - Highly instanced world, where each instance is relatively small compared to other games you've played.

For example: In, say, BG you have these HUGE areas to explore and have random encounters in. You can also go into just about every house in every town, village, and city. In KoTOR, say, Dantooine has three pretty big areas you are free to run around in.

I generally prefer the smaller instanced maps, as I get verra tired verra quickly of running, running, running, running, and oh, what's that? Oh yes, more running. It's one of the reasons I find open worlds so annoying.

Additionally, a lot of those huge maps only have a couple of encounters of substance that move forward plot or subplot storylines. The rest can be categorized as random encounters. The encounters we have, while perhaps in smaller areas, are generally more substantive than the ones you come across in open worlds. I prefer that, but I understand that you don't. A lot of people don't. I like quality over quantity, but I do realize that some people think highly instanced worlds are very restrictive.



2 - Overall game content lacks immersiveness, coherency, and a "big picture" feeling.

I agree with what Zenon wrote, while some of the content is a bit squirrely, the sheer amount of it prohibits perfection. I think that DA:O does a pretty good job of including major quests that are "bigger than yourself". After all, you decide the fate of a nation, a race, and a major province, just as a couple of examples. Will touch on consequences in a moment.

Also, it seems you have an issue with that massive amount of data available to you in the Codex, saying you are never going to find most of it. Well...not yet. DA:O is a buildable game, and there is a lot you can find going by the Codex. The Circle Tower is a great example of that. I believe it is unrealistic to expect to find tangibilities of every single or even most of the references in the Codex.

Consequences for quest decisions. Not sure what they have planned for future DLC/Expansions, but I have to agree with you on that one. I'm too spoiled. I want real, substantive follow ups for a lot of the quests you do. More than just a blurb in an epilogue. I don't to hear about the werewolves I saved from the curse, I want to go see where they're hanging out, how they're doing. Yeah, that's a LOT more content, but I already said I was spoiled.

Organizations. I am a Gray Warden. It would make no sense for me to join a group like the Crows, Blackstone, etc. I am already a member of a "guild" so to speak. My duties as a Gray Warden would supercede any a particular group would want to ascribe to me. Everything I do in the game is for one, sole purpose; end the Blight. Different game, different PC, perhaps I would feel differently. In PS:T, you got to join a Faction, but joining a Faction helped me find out who I really was, which was my main overall goal. Sorry, on this bit, I just outright disagree with you.



3 - Game system restrictions. You seem kind of contradictory in this. You want more specialization bonuses (druids talking to animals, mages talking to demons) but less (anyone can open locks, etc.) While I do agree that the Bash option, or a higher level mage spell (Knock, anyone) should be able to open locks, I think there should be a penalty to the Bash option as there was in KoTOR, and to the spell i.e. it's a higher level spell so not available immediately. I also think that anyone should be able to "disable" a trap. Warriors and mages, however, would get no experience as their method of disabling would be to trigger the trap from a safe distance. Even my weakling of a mage can throw a rock into a bear trap. Rogues should get both exp and the opportunity to recover trap components, imho.

As far as the other specializations, just because they're not implemented in a way you expect to see them doesn't mean they're not there. Only Rangers can summon animals. Only Mages can get items in the Fade. There are things only each subclass can do that no other can. Just because my Ranger doesn't have a full blown diagnostic Q&A with the halla doesn't mean they can't.



Basically, what it all comes down to for me is this; game mechanics aside, there is only so much room in any game. DA:O had a LOT to accomplish as it was the introduction to an entirely new world and system. BG was already established (WELL established) and didn't need so much, and it also was a completely different set of developer rules back then.

I don't really think it's fair to compare a hundreds of hours long game with one that never had the chance to be one. They simply don't happen any longer. I will be surprised if you will ever find a game up to your standards released again, or at least until the hundreds of hours worth of gaming single player CRPG makes a triumphant return.

With the demands for multi-platform releases, state of the art graphics and animations, massive amounts of dialogue, and accessable to the casual gamer, the market is no longer supportive of those of us who want a return to the "good old days" of seemingly endless enjoyment. Harsh reality, but reality nonetheless.

[mommacrystal80]

Quite simply put I love the game, it's definitely among my favorites.

[Sam -stone- serious]

Adria, Mass Effect and Witcher were up to my standards. Both modern games. One from the same company that made DAO so you see that i am easily pleased enough as long as the game makes the attempt of being a gamers game. Both Mass effect and Witcher had some serious flaws but they were not enough to stop the feeling of disbelief from their gameworld. Their gameworlds "logic" was enough to not leave you questioning too much. DAO has a LOT of questions (and i dont mean that in a story kind of way) and non logical situation within the games boundaries that ruin the feeling of EPIC and disbelief. Too bad because the game has potential. Better luck next time.

[Adria Teksuni]

I find that interesting, because to me, Mass Effect was much more limiting in terms of game mechanics and character development than DA:O, and while it was fun to drive around in the Mako, it got very frustrating at times just trying to get from Point A to Point B only to find a medal. Witcher, however, doth indeed truly rocketh.

And DA:O does have a lot of potential, which is why I'm willing to put my particular nitpicks with the game on hold and see what else they do with the world.

Modifié par Adria Teksuni, 09 décembre 2009 - 01:51 .

[sarc.tr]

Planescape: Torment holds that title for me, though DA:O is definitely up there, GOTY imo

[imukka]

Nice joke tc

not even in top 10

the game simply lacks too much to be one

[Zenon]

I cut (mostly my own) quotes to make size better readable.

[quote]Sam -stone- serious wrote...

This is not really an excuse. The game should have a more open ended environment and better interactivity that unrealistic things. Hehe i am a big bad mage but i cant burn a woden chest to open it, i need a rogue for that...fail. Even games that i do not expect to have a lot of interactivity (generaly J-RPGs) often surprise me and leave me enough freedom within the game boundaries. DAO on the other hand leaves non even within its boundaries. [/quote]

Apart from some extra interaction, which I'd regard highly optional such as druids talking with animals unless it adds to the storyline I can agree that in some places I felt a bit too limited in my interaction with the gameworld. But in most cases it didn't bother me.

[quote]
[quote]
There are changes in the game world during play. Depending on who you support during your quests you'll have different allies in the end. Also I think the player shouldn't be able to control everything. [/quote]

It really does not. If i take baldurs gate as an example i will tell you only one of miriad such situations. There is a remote village that has people missing. My options to this are as numerous as i would like including to slaughter the lot of them just because the mayor didnt talk to me properly. Nothing is predetermined. At the end of this sidequest i will be having repercusions that will hunt me for the rest of the game and the world responding to my benevolence/ tyrany/ intelligence/ savior/ protector you name it.

And thats only one of the less interesting side quests.
[/quote]

In a few occasions Bioware could have added more options for the player. Can't go into detail in the non-spoiler section though. In one quest in DA:O you could side with one candidate and get attacked by supporters of the other. I know there are things, which you can't do as freely as in other games, like doing the same as Jowan for instance. But then again IMHO the choices most often fit to the story-line of the hero's destiny in most cases.

[quote][quote]
Tell me one game without any restrictions. I admit in a few instances I felt like I should be able to walk somewhere preventet by the pathfinding or level design of the game. Other than that I guess it's your personal gripe. [/quote]

I expect within the game world to be able to move and enter everywhere i like as well as interact with everything that can be interacted and then some. A  good case of point even if a small one is the locked boxes. Why in the nine hells am i not able to crush them, bash them, burn them, magicaly open them?  Why cant i mind control an NPC  through some means to fight for me? Why cant i kill someone, loot him and blame it on someone else if i get caught? Why cant i enter into almost every house and move freely in its map? Restrictions, restrictions and more restrictions.
[/quote]
The lack of options concerning locked chests (and sometimes doors) except having an able rogue was a bit annoying for me as well. At least an incentive to take a rogue with me or revisit the place again later with a rogue to open closed chests for treasure after monsters are dead. Burning a chest with a fireball seems ridiculous, since it most likely also burns the insides leaving you with empty hands. I miss the option of bashing a chest with a weapon like in NWN2 risking to destroy part of the contents but being able to walk away with the rest.

I would like to add that an open lock spell is available through a community mod, if you have a PC at least.
[quote]
Its dumped down by a lot. You say that you learn to cast a fireball in DnD without learning burning hands first. Well i got news for you. You DO know how to cast burning hands because its a level 1 type spell and fireball is a level 3 type spell. You know how to cast all level 1 spells and in time do learn all 3rd level spells as well. Its perfectly logical. Even Diablo 2 had more customazation and better skill progression. [/quote]
I don't play wizards, who theoretically learn every available spell eventually, but sorcerers learning only a limited amount of spells. I often skip burning hands or "forget" it later for making space for more wanted spells once my sorcerer learned fireball. It was just an example. In D&D you can randomly learn spells only depending on your magic level. In DA:O you can't.

Diablo is very light RPG compared to DA:O. Actually it's more a hack&slay game, than a true RPG. Anyway, perhaps the talent trees in Diablo II were more elaborate than in DA:O, but then again it's a very different concept. I hope for a more detailed and perhaps complex system for the sequels and the announced pen&paper RPG, which I'll probably pass on anyway out of lack of time.
[quote]
Being a member of a big faction should not restrict you from doing your own thing. In the Witcher you play a predetermined character as well but you are free to do however you wish within its game world and it has enough intrigue to sate your appetite. Besides shoudnt it be MY choice if i want to have a problem with the chantry or the Arls or whatever?
[/quote]
I begin to burn to get "The Witcher Enhanced Edition" this week... (haha) In DA:O the political situation is pretty much set without the player being able to influence much with the exception of Orzammar. It may have added to the game, if the player could choose to side with more than one Arl and probably losing the support of another. In some points the game is more linear than it needed to be. Yet I don't find much to complain here.
[quote][quote]
I found a note telling me on how to reach a place by following certain landmarks with finding a special sword in the end. I found notes and hints about hidden places and mysterious persons, which often enough ended in some event related to my notes. You should go more into depth I guess. [/quote]
Far too few and not really interesting at all because it is predetermined that you WILL  be looking through it and will have no impact whatsoever in the rest of the game.
[/quote]
Not too few for my taste. I also didn't feel like predetermined to read all notes. E.G. I skipped some letters found, which were just to be collected for another interested party. In fact Bioware could have just added a quest-item instead of adding codex entries.

I didn't read all of my codex entries very throughly. Perhaps in my next playthrough. While there is more potential in using notes or adding content based on stories these are highly optional. My guess is, that some of these can be addressed in further DLC. With between 80-100 hours playtime I had well enough content already for a single player game.
[quote][quote]
Balance is often experienced very subjectively by the players. Single player games don't need as much class balancing or progression balancing. In fact I'd find extremely smooth progress according to a mathematically proportional scale a lot more boring than this sense of accomplishment when e.g. I finally can learn to cast a huge fireball, open basically every lock, etc. [/quote]
I am not talking about class balance at all, thats the last thing that concerns me. I am talking about progress stoping encounters, spike difficulty that its either way too easy or way too hard and often at the same time, choices that SHOULD  have a far bigger impact than none at all (one good such example is the choice of the dwarf king which it really changes nothing at all).
[/quote]
The only encounter, that gave me a really hard challenge was down in the ruins as I started the Brecilian Forest right after Lothering. But the player can choose to discontinue this part and go elsewhere, e.g. Redcliffe, Tower of Magi and return later with stronger characters and better equipment. Some fights are meant to be very hard. Probably if you finished Brecilian Forest before Redcliffe the latter appears to be too easy in comparison.

Unless you play a dwarf the impact of decisions in Orzammar you couldn't care less about as a Grey Warden as long as you get your needed support. The long term impact is represented in the epilogue and will possibly have some effect in a sequel.
[quote][quote]
Subjective feeling. Almost every game has less captivating quests. Mostly these are the optional sidequests. DA:O does here a much better job than most games developed until today. I also had more fun and felt more ready to help my companions than in previous games. [/quote]
This is why Baldurs Gate was such a hit. Including everything else you were never the focus of the story, each side quest was a potential "greater than yourself" situation, the main quest was epic and dangerous enough but it was personal, your companions all had their own agendas and all and everyone could spoil it for you not only from your choices but from the games world situations as well. Nothing was set in stone like it is in DAO. [/quote]
The story is entirely different. In DA:O the role of your character obviously is more heroic and powerful compared to BG. The companions make a difference in some key situations of the game as well in DA:O. Can't go into detail, but even if it seems not to have immediate effect on the game world until the end of the main quest again, I just mention Morrigan.
[quote]
Its not the first RPG i play you know. Older RPGs from the same developer even have done things much better and much more logicaly. I just never felt satisfied playing this game as i did with the older Bioware games (save for Jade Empire)[/quote]
I guess it's much about personal preference, since I liked Jade Empire a lot. There are some points where other games of Bioware are more outstanding than DA:O, but as a total package I consider DA:O as one of the best games Bioware created until today.

(edited to fix the quotes)

Modifié par Zenon, 09 décembre 2009 - 02:07 .

[Sam -stone- serious]

Adria Teksuni wrote...

I find that interesting, because to me, Mass Effect was much more limiting in terms of game mechanics and character development than DA:O, and while it was fun to drive around in the Mako, it got very frustrating at times just trying to get from Point A to Point B only to find a medal. Witcher, however, doth indeed truly rocketh.

And DA:O does have a lot of potential, which is why I'm willing to put my particular nitpicks with the game on hold and see what else they do with the world.

Mass effect had its (serious) problems but it was a gamers game and it had a lot of things going for it and most of all the feeling of disbelief. DAO  lacks that heavily along with everything else. DAO  just had to fulfil much and the focus was given elsewhere and it feels "naked" but even standard things that should have been there.

The template of the game is such as well that it cannon be worked through mods to strenthen the experience like it was the case with Oblivion (a really bad game out of the box, an awesome one with a couple of mods because its template and tools were complete). DAO has potential which i expect to see in the second outing and i will be keeping my eyes on it. For now however DAO simply just falls off the mark and its the first yellow card i will be giving Bioware because the theme of DAO is something that she knows well and for me she royally screwed it up. 

[Magic Zarim]

Zenon wrote...

I begin to burn to get "The Witcher Enhanced Edition" this week... (haha)

Highly recommended, a game that shouldn't be missing in your RPG collection  Good thing is a sequel is in the make as well, due for a 2010/2011 release.

[Adria Teksuni]

Sam -stone- serious wrote...
Mass effect had its (serious) problems but it was a gamers game and it had a lot of things going for it and most of all the feeling of disbelief. DAO  lacks that heavily along with everything else. DAO  just had to fulfil much and the focus was given elsewhere and it feels "naked" but even standard things that should have been there.

The template of the game is such as well that it cannon be worked through mods to strenthen the experience like it was the case with Oblivion (a really bad game out of the box, an awesome one with a couple of mods because its template and tools were complete). DAO has potential which i expect to see in the second outing and i will be keeping my eyes on it. For now however DAO simply just falls off the mark and its the first yellow card i will be giving Bioware because the theme of DAO is something that she knows well and for me she royally screwed it up. 

Agree to disagree, then?  I'm sorry that DA:O was such a disappointment for you, but verra glad that you're not giving up on the franchise. 

[Sam -stone- serious]

[quote]Zenon wrote...
Apart from some extra interaction, which I'd regard highly optional such as druids talking with animals unless it adds to the storyline I can agree that in some places I felt a bit too limited in my interaction with the gameworld. But in most cases it didn't bother me. [/quote]

Which in the end it really boils down to this. Do you find yourself bothered by DAOs "missing" parts? If yes then DAO will be a very mediocre game for you. If no then you will probably enjoy it. I am the kind of person that enjoys freedom within the games boundaries. If i want to see a spectacular movie-game i would go for the japanesse games as they happen to be much superior in this respect. Where to start and where to end? Final Fantasy? Metal Gear? Devil May Cry? Resident Evil? These guys are just better story tellers with better presentation and often greater production values and testers to make sure that everything is "bound" correctly.

[quote]
In a few occasions Bioware could have added more options for the player. Can't go into detail in the non-spoiler section though. In one quest in DA:O you could side with one candidate and get attacked by supporters of the other. I know there are things, which you can't do as freely as in other games, like doing the same as Jowan for instance. But then again IMHO the choices most often fit to the story-line of the hero's destiny in most cases. [/quote]

Thats the problem, the game is too black and white in its limited choices while Baldurs Gate, Fallout 1+2, Planescape,  Witcher, neverwinter nights and even Mass Effect were more shades of gray. This is the proper western RPG design. These choices also "hunt" you for the rest of the game in each of the aformentioned games. DAO  cant compete in this respect.

[quote]
The lack of options concerning locked chests (and sometimes doors) except having an able rogue was a bit annoying for me as well. At least an incentive to take a rogue with me or revisit the place again later with a rogue to open closed chests for treasure after monsters are dead. Burning a chest with a fireball seems ridiculous, since it most likely also burns the insides leaving you with empty hands. I miss the option of bashing a chest with a weapon like in NWN2 risking to destroy part of the contents but being able to walk away with the rest. [/quote]

And that is only a small part of it. Remember in BG2 that you could mind controll peasants for cannon fodder just because you could? Summoning grizzly bears in a tavern only to see them attack the locals (you could control them but every character has a mind of their own as well) because they were hungry? Yeah, this kind of  "freedom" within the games world was what set these older games apart and why DAO  cant even see their length of their boots.

[quote]
I would like to add that an open lock spell is available through a community mod, if you have a PC at least.
[/quote]

Thats only a small nigle, something fixable. The greater things however cannot be fixed.

[quote]
Diablo is very light RPG compared to DA:O. Actually it's more a hack&slay game, than a true RPG. Anyway, perhaps the talent trees in Diablo II were more elaborate than in DA:O, but then again it's a very different concept. I hope for a more detailed and perhaps complex system for the sequels and the announced pen&paper RPG, which I'll probably pass on anyway out of lack of time.
[/quote]

Indeed which is an even bigger "disgrace" for a "light" action- RPG to have greater mechanics than a "heavier" one.

[quote]
I begin to burn to get "The Witcher Enhanced Edition" this week... (haha) In DA:O the political situation is pretty much set without the player being able to influence much with the exception of Orzammar. It may have added to the game, if the player could choose to side with more than one Arl and probably losing the support of another. In some points the game is more linear than it needed to be. Yet I don't find much to complain here.
[/quote]

What the hell are you still doing in the forums then?  Go get the game already. However this is a situation that i explained at the start. Do you mind with these mistakes? Yes? Then steer clear. No? Continue with your play please.

[quote]
Not too few for my taste. I also didn't feel like predetermined to read all notes. E.G. I skipped some letters found, which were just to be collected for another interested party. In fact Bioware could have just added a quest-item instead of adding codex entries. [/quote]

Well they were far too few for me (i can count them in the fingers of one hand). 

[quote]
I didn't read all of my codex entries very throughly. Perhaps in my next playthrough. While there is more potential in using notes or adding content based on stories these are highly optional. My guess is, that some of these can be addressed in further DLC. With between 80-100 hours playtime I had well enough content already for a single player game. [/quote]

Am i the only one that felt those 80 hours (it took me 77 hours first time) were hollow?  Half of the time i was involved in conversations and situations i thought mattered and the other half was divided by loading times and unbalanced combat mechanics and encounters.

[quote]
The only encounter, that gave me a really hard challenge was down in the ruins as I started the Brecilian Forest right after Lothering. But the player can choose to discontinue this part and go elsewhere, e.g. Redcliffe, Tower of Magi and return later with stronger characters and better equipment. Some fights are meant to be very hard. Probably if you finished Brecilian Forest before Redcliffe the latter appears to be too easy in comparison. [/quote]

This was really not my issue as i enjoy harder encounters depending on skill (level). What was problematic was that encounters were just about everywhere badly judged as well as the way i was caught in them. I would like to elaborate more on this but i would have to spoil the game to do it.

[quote]
Unless you play a dwarf the impact of decisions in Orzammar you couldn't care less about as a Grey Warden as long as you get your needed support. The long term impact is represented in the epilogue and will possibly have some effect in a sequel.
[/quote]

But thats not for the developers to decide now is it? Sure i am a grey warden and all i care about is to amass an army to fight against the blight but shouldnt i be the one who decides whether i care about something or not?

[quote]
Subjective feeling. Almost every game has less captivating quests. Mostly these are the optional sidequests. DA:O does here a much better job than most games developed until today. I also had more fun and felt more ready to help my companions than in previous games. [/quote]

I disagree that DAO  has captivating sidequests. All i did was go to point A, pick a few lines if there was a conversation and then get back to the quest giver be that the chantry or the mages collective or whatever. In other bioware games however (and not only) sidequests were as good and as epic and even deadlier than the main quest because you were never the focus. You are indeed quite important but there are many things greater than yourself and that has opened enough questlines to feel that there is more at work here than your personal enemy or yourself. Watchers keep anyone?

[quote]
The story is entirely different. In DA:O the role of your character obviously is more heroic and powerful compared to BG. The companions make a difference in some key situations of the game as well in DA:O. Can't go into detail, but even if it seems not to have immediate effect on the game world until the end of the main quest again, I just mention Morrigan. [/quote]

I can say with easy that few characters are as important as your own in BG2 but its presented and executed in such a way that it makes you feel that that you have a LONG  way to go in order to be this magnificent guy. I cant go into detail but anyone who has played BG2 will know. Companions could attack you at any moment, fight it out among themselves when their interests or rage got the better of them, leave just because and all those had an impact to your story and even the world itself depending on the situation and what has happened. In DAO  everything is about your end choices, what you will see grafically only and in the text that appears in the end. Never however in gameplay terms.

[quote]
I guess it's much about personal preference, since I liked Jade Empire a lot. There are some points where other games of Bioware are more outstanding than DA:O, but as a total package I consider DA:O as one of the best games Bioware created until today.
[/quote]

There is only one reason i did not like Jade empire. Its setting and language was not "authentic" and it fell way short of the genuine eastern offerings that tried to mimic. The language alone was a deal breaker for me but the combat and same world design as DAO (5x5 space to move in a grand and epic scale environment) just sealed the deal. Its the reason why i dont give a yellow card to Bioware because they entered into places they did not work on before. DAO however gets the yellow card from me.

[Gecon]

DA:O definitely beats the Witcher for me.

- No insanely stupid "hunt for sex" gamecards and likewise "adventures". Such things are not in the Witcher books either, by the way.
- No endless annoying collection of potion ingredients to have the best potions ready.
- OMG how much better combat, words fail me. Instead of having to hit one and the same stupid braindead boring frequency of attacks again and again and again and ... actually real choices of what to do.
- Full group play with pause and play.
- Real Mages under my control.
- Freely chooseable main character.

The only thing where Witcher beats DA:O is with the potion system. Once you had collected the "&(&"&!%&"!!! ingredients, you could do wonders with them.

[Zenon]

Concerning Jade Empire I played the German version. I think there was no multilanguage version available, and imports tend to be too expensive. Language of JE was ok with me in German though.



Even with from my personal perspective few spots in DA:O, that leave to the desire, I'm content and enjoy this game a lot. I hope also, that Bioware picks up some suggestions from the community to create with the planned sequel an even better game. I'm looking forward to ME2. In fact if I divide my fun by playtime, then I had even more fun per minute in ME than in DA:O. But I still like both in their own rights.



I just checked, if I can get "The Witcher Enhanced Edition" with English language in Germany. Seems they included 10 languages including English and German, so I'll check the next store or go to amazon for it.



Any other suggestions for more good games (PC)? How do/did you like Fallout 3 for example?

[Eurypterid]

Sam: thanks for the response. Well thought out, and I find it interesting to see what others think the game lacks. I can't say I agree with you on all points, though, but that comes down to personal preferences I guess.