171 réponses à ce sujet

[wsandista]

simfamSP wrote...

Less items with more detail would be better. In DA:O (and ME for that matter) there was an overuse of recycled armours with a new name and paint job. If DA3 manages to get the amount of detail a piece of armour deserves then that would be even better.

Take the Witcher 2 for example. Now, there is no way BioWare are going to use the RED engine. Nor are they going to come up with something that great because EA wants them to release the game on all three consoles. It took a long time for the console port of the Witcher 2 to be made. BioWare aren't going to have enough time to make them all.

So, back to the armour.

See the richness and the amount of detail put in? The special forces badges; the knives; the quiver and bow? Iorveth probably uses it once in the entire game; but that doesn't matter. What matters is the details. I'd give 4 or 5 sets of armour like that, then 10 or 15 sets of armour like this:


repainted and renamed.


Note: I know it's not fair comparing ME1 to the Witcher 2. I wasn't comparing details with this screenshot. The ME1 screenshot serves to see how silly it is to have a ton of recyled armour, that doesn't even look the part! THIS is more "lazy" than the above.

Unique armors like that would be amazing, but keep a few basic armors around to use as basic equipment like breastplate, studded leather, fullplate, etc.

[Vormaerin]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

And that's a reasonable question.

But we do have that much control, so why are they forced to dress inappropriately for their own actions?

Except, of course, that she is trained in it if you train her in it.

Well, I have to admit I don't follow the pregame hype for stuff that isn't coming out for a long time yet.   Is that what they are doing? Making all the companions into insertable personalities over whatever stat block you favor?  If they are doing that, obviously you can't really have a distinctive look because the designers don't know what the character is like.

If the characters have classes and skill sets, but you can fill the various roles in different ways, that would work.  You could have Leilana "tanking" by evasion type stuff, while Avelline would be heavily armored, and Merrill would be wrapped in defensive spells.   In that case, you could have roles while still being compatible with distinctive gear.

[deuce985]

simfamSP wrote...

deuce985 wrote...

My biggest worry is Bioware's new proposal severely cuts down on customization. It's obvious this will happen. That hurts itemization because you have less items to choose from. So that hurts build variety. Unless you have some sort of system where you can customize the stats on the gear...

Say they give one armor piece 4 different looks. That's 4x as much work compared to the old system they used in DA:O.

It's either less items or we'll see more recycled armor graphics. Neither is good, IMO. If I had to choose...I'd go with customization over giving our companions unique looks.

Less items with more detail would be better. In DA:O (and ME for that matter) there was an overuse of recycled armours with a new name and paint job. If DA3 manages to get the amount of detail a piece of armour deserves then that would be even better.

Take the Witcher 2 for example. Now, there is no way BioWare are going to use the RED engine. Nor are they going to come up with something that great because EA wants them to release the game on all three consoles. It took a long time for the console port of the Witcher 2 to be made. BioWare aren't going to have enough time to make them all.

So, back to the armour.

See the richness and the amount of detail put in? The special forces badges; the knives; the quiver and bow? Iorveth probably uses it once in the entire game; but that doesn't matter. What matters is the details. I'd give 4 or 5 sets of armour like that, then 10 or 15 sets of armour like this:


repainted and renamed.


Note: I know it's not fair comparing ME1 to the Witcher 2. I wasn't comparing details with this screenshot. The ME1 screenshot serves to see how silly it is to have a ton of recyled armour, that doesn't even look the part! THIS is more "lazy" than the above.

You don't have to show me that. In fact, I want unique looks for my companions.

I just don't want to see unique looks if the compromise loses too much customization. I accept we'll lose some customization, that's only logical. I trust Bioware though.

If they do decide to use far less items with more unique looks, I'm hoping we at least have some way to customize the stats. Otherwise, that could end being a severe balance problem where itemization doesn't support certain builds.

Modifié par deuce985, 10 mai 2012 - 02:43 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Vormaerin wrote...

Well, I have to admit I don't follow the pregame hype for stuff that isn't coming out for a long time yet.   Is that what they are doing? Making all the companions into insertable personalities over whatever stat block you favor?

That's how DAO worked, and I really enjoyed it.

That's how DA2 worked, but it was less well done because of the fixed appearances.

If they are doing that, obviously you can't really have a distinctive look because the designers don't know what the character is like.

If they let us control the character at all (particularly if they let us assign skills and combat tactics), then they do never know.

And yet, despite keeping that control largely unchanged between DAO and DA2, they decided that iconic looks made sense in one of them.

If the characters have classes and skill sets, but you can fill the various roles in different ways, that would work.  You could have Leilana "tanking" by evasion type stuff, while Avelline would be heavily armored, and Merrill would be wrapped in defensive spells.   In that case, you could have roles while still being compatible with distinctive gear.

Sure, but that's not how DA3 will work (according to their most recent proposal).  If we can put heavy armour on any character who meets the stat requirements, then we should see heavy armour.  And that is apparently what we weill see.  The heavy armour will look very different from character to character, but it will still be heavy armour.

[Rorschachinstein]

Bekkael wrote...

Eh, I don't really understand why companions need "iconic appearance" in the first place. I was never once confused in DA:O (or any other game) as to which character was which, based on what clothing or armor they were in at the time. It allows more freedom when you can give any clothing or armor the PC isn't using to other characters of the same class, at the very least.

If most players love the unique companion clothing/armor, that's fine with me, but it does get awfully boring to look at, so I like what they have proposed for the next DA game. I prefer full customization of companions being left up to the player, but I'll take what I can get.

Are you kidding me bro? I killed maybe 4 rouges that looked just like Leliana and 2 mages that looked just like Wynne. I shet you no bro. When Zevran ambushes you, there will be an archer that looks just like Leliana on one of the cliffs.

[seraphymon]

deuce985 wrote...
I do play on PC and no, this isn't as viable as you claim. At least for me. Like I said, I mostly played the game in real-time and guessing who is who makes it harder to just press F1-F4...or clicking on them.

It's happening so fast I might need a critical heal/pot I don't have room for error. Especially when I'm playing on Nightmare. Pressing the wrong F key for the companion can lead to death. I like Bioware's proposal for DA3 and I like being able to tell who my companions are easier and having armors fit their personality. It makes absolutely no sense to have Isabella running around in full plate armor.

Not everybody pauses the game to make it feel like you're going through a slideshow to get precise inputs.

That sounds like a "you" problem if you think clicking on potraits which clearly identity who is who without having to even see the battlefield too hard for you. As the same applies out in the battlefield wether they unique or not if your in such a frantic and dont wish to pause, mistakes will happen the same. The fact that you do not wish to pause is how you choose to play and does not justify the reasons for unique looks to me anyways.

thats also the problem of the fast pace combat at times especially on nightmare and when you dont choose to pause. pressing the wrong button is not a justifyable execuse.

[deuce985]

seraphymon wrote...

deuce985 wrote...
I do play on PC and no, this isn't as viable as you claim. At least for me. Like I said, I mostly played the game in real-time and guessing who is who makes it harder to just press F1-F4...or clicking on them.

It's happening so fast I might need a critical heal/pot I don't have room for error. Especially when I'm playing on Nightmare. Pressing the wrong F key for the companion can lead to death. I like Bioware's proposal for DA3 and I like being able to tell who my companions are easier and having armors fit their personality. It makes absolutely no sense to have Isabella running around in full plate armor.

Not everybody pauses the game to make it feel like you're going through a slideshow to get precise inputs.

That sounds like a "you" problem if you think clicking on potraits which clearly identity who is who without having to even see the battlefield too hard for you. As the same applies out in the battlefield wether they unique or not if your in such a frantic and dont wish to pause, mistakes will happen the same. The fact that you do not wish to pause is how you choose to play and does not justify the reasons for unique looks to me anyways.

thats also the problem of the fast pace combat at times especially on nightmare and when you dont choose to pause. pressing the wrong button is not a justifyable execuse.

Why should I have to justify my playstyle to anyone? Everybody plays the game differently. I'm simply giving my perspective on why things are different for me. Just because you don't see it like that, doesn't make it any less justifable. You have personal tastes and so does everyone else. That's why Bioware finds middle ground, finds a compromise and applies it.

That isn't the only reason I want them to have distinct looks...as I've mentioned before. This is just one of several reasons. My main reasoning is I like armor on companions that fit their personality. It fits the role-playing aspect better, IMO. Making it easier on me for the combat is just a plus.

As mentioned earlier, if Bioware actually let you arrange the portraits how you want, this by itself would cause much less error on who I'm selecting. I'd always know where my portraits are set on the F keys when I'm constantly changing companions out. Even with that feature, I'd want them to still apply unique looks...

Modifié par deuce985, 10 mai 2012 - 05:52 .

[seraphymon]

deuce985 wrote...
Why should I have to justify my playstyle to anyone? Everybody plays the game differently. I'm simply giving my perspective on why things are different for me. Just because you don't see it like that, doesn't make it any less justifable. You have personal tastes and so does everyone else. That's why Bioware finds middle ground, finds a compromise and applies it.

That isn't the only reason I want them to have distinct looks...as I've mentioned before. This is just one of several reasons. My main reasoning is I like armor on companions that fit their personality. It fits the role-playing aspect better, IMO. Making it easier on me for the combat is just a plus.

As mentioned earlier, if Bioware actually let you arrange the portraits how you want, this by itself would cause much less error on who I'm selecting. I'd always know where my portraits are set on the F keys when I'm constantly changing companions out. Even with that feature, I'd want them to still apply unique looks...

I didnt ask, no expect to justify your playstyle. That was not the point. What im saying is that  your playstyle around combat is not a justifyable execuse for unique  iconic looks. If there was no potraits or you only had the option of clicking on the guys on the battlefield, than i may accept that, but as it stands it we have options as far as PC goes.

you actually can arrange the potraits, its not simple, but you do have some control. While you are always on top, you can control where the other falls. If your by yourself first and then choose to add companions, who you select first will be seccond, third and so on. If you however have a party already and try to remove add or change you wont be able to control it.

As for the other reasons, well that is always subjective, no real right or wrong and everyone has their own opinion and stand on their side of it.  Me i dont mind iconic looks as long as they dont hamper or limit if we so choose to play how we or each single person wants and if that means putting morrigan in templar armor so be it. As it affects no one elses game. 
This new method mentioned by Bioware for DA3 may sound great and all, but theres so many worries, like by doing this may severly limit the number of avialable armor having to create unique looks for each armor several times, and also say you like the way it looks on you, but if you put it on someone else it may look horrible, like open or closed helmets.

[ChaosAgentLoki]

Personally, no, I don't think it is. I like my companions having diverse appearances. Along with a strong personality (something that Bioware seemingly struggles to accomplish in Dragon Age, not in Mass Effect...), it makes them great to have in my party. I did not like in DA2 the fact that there was no gathering of armor specific to the party members. Instead it was pieces that added rune slots to their armor...not cool.

DA:O's companion designs sucked, flat out. With all the armor being able to make them look the exact same, it was irritating. I know that I'm in the minority here (at least amongst the fans), but I would hate to return to that. Sure, having armor change as you equip it is awesome, but it can be taken too far. I don't like having all my characters looking the exact same when equipped the same gear.

Bioware's compromise is exciting because it fits what I'm looking for. The ability to gain new equipment that my companions can equip, but still keeping different looks for them. I'll take morphing armor over size shifting armor any day for my RPGs. However, that's just me.

So, my answer is that I do not think DA2 was too diverse. Where's the fun in having companions if you can't have awesome differences in appearance as well as a great personality. It's something that Japanese made RPGs have done for years and can still do very well (in my opinion). However, being unable to change their armor is not cool and so Bioware's compromise is exciting and great. That's just my view though.

Modifié par ChaosAgentLoki, 10 mai 2012 - 06:18 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

The proposed DA3 system is certainly miles better than what we saw in DA2

As long as they keep stat-limited armour. If they switch to class-limited armour, then it's only marginally better than DA2, and will require modding to make it playable.

[AkiKishi]

ChaosAgentLoki wrote...

Personally, no, I don't think it is. I like my companions having diverse appearances. Along with a strong personality (something that Bioware seemingly struggles to accomplish in Dragon Age, not in Mass Effect...), it makes them great to have in my party. I did not like in DA2 the fact that there was no gathering of armor specific to the party members. Instead it was pieces that added rune slots to their armor...not cool.

DA:O's companion designs sucked, flat out. With all the armor being able to make them look the exact same, it was irritating. I know that I'm in the minority here (at least amongst the fans), but I would hate to return to that. Sure, having armor change as you equip it is awesome, but it can be taken too far. I don't like having all my characters looking the exact same when equipped the same gear.

Bioware's compromise is exciting because it fits what I'm looking for. The ability to gain new equipment that my companions can equip, but still keeping different looks for them. I'll take morphing armor over size shifting armor any day for my RPGs. However, that's just me.

So, my answer is that I do not think DA2 was too diverse. Where's the fun in having companions if you can't have awesome differences in appearance as well as a great personality. It's something that Japanese made RPGs have done for years and can still do very well (in my opinion). However, being unable to change their armor is not cool and so Bioware's compromise is exciting and great. That's just my view though.

DAO was shooting for realistic and armour is not a fashion statement, it's a survival tool. This is where fantasy and realism part ways.



vs



It's perfectly valid to say realism goes out of the window once you introduce elements that medivel armour was never meant to deal with. While I don't get this problem of telling people appart... that's just crazy they are not that small, or similiar. Having an iconic apprearence helps with character. Auron dressed as the guy in white armour, would just not be Auron.

[Knight of Dane]

Ukki wrote...

"Unique look" is just another word for lazyness. Thats all.

Tell that to the designers and modellers.. 

[brushyourteeth]

simfamSP wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

Ukki wrote...

"Unique look" is just another word for lazyness. Thats all.

Tell that to the designers and modellers.. 

I think people just like to throw out the word lazy at anything BioWare these days

I think at this point "lazy" would be going back to inventing 2-3 armor designs per class for everybody and just repainting them and adding new names and stats.

Seems to me it took a lot more effort to give each companion a signature look and then assign a few different armor designs to non-companion npc's and then let the player play with those armor types and then some. Which was totally worth it..... for the chest hair.

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 10 mai 2012 - 11:47 .

[leighzard]

Rorschachinstein wrote...

Bekkael wrote...

Eh, I don't really understand why companions need "iconic appearance" in the first place. I was never once confused in DA:O (or any other game) as to which character was which, based on what clothing or armor they were in at the time. It allows more freedom when you can give any clothing or armor the PC isn't using to other characters of the same class, at the very least.

If most players love the unique companion clothing/armor, that's fine with me, but it does get awfully boring to look at, so I like what they have proposed for the next DA game. I prefer full customization of companions being left up to the player, but I'll take what I can get.

Are you kidding me bro? I killed maybe 4 rouges that looked just like Leliana and 2 mages that looked just like Wynne. I shet you no bro. When Zevran ambushes you, there will be an archer that looks just like Leliana on one of the cliffs.

Yeah, but did you ever order Leliana to start stabbing the other archers on the cliffs because you thought she was up there?  I've never had a lot of trouble keeping track of where my characters are.  Leliana either isn't in my party at that point, or I know she's next to me in the valley, not magically transported up on the cliffs. 

But then again, I've never tried a complete runthrough on nightmare, which might make them harder to track.

It's definitely cool if my companions look unique, but I'd rather be able to spec them to how I intend to use them.

[ChaosAgentLoki]

BobSmith101 wrote...

ChaosAgentLoki wrote...

Personally, no, I don't think it is. I like my companions having diverse appearances. Along with a strong personality (something that Bioware seemingly struggles to accomplish in Dragon Age, not in Mass Effect...), it makes them great to have in my party. I did not like in DA2 the fact that there was no gathering of armor specific to the party members. Instead it was pieces that added rune slots to their armor...not cool.

DA:O's companion designs sucked, flat out. With all the armor being able to make them look the exact same, it was irritating. I know that I'm in the minority here (at least amongst the fans), but I would hate to return to that. Sure, having armor change as you equip it is awesome, but it can be taken too far. I don't like having all my characters looking the exact same when equipped the same gear.

Bioware's compromise is exciting because it fits what I'm looking for. The ability to gain new equipment that my companions can equip, but still keeping different looks for them. I'll take morphing armor over size shifting armor any day for my RPGs. However, that's just me.

So, my answer is that I do not think DA2 was too diverse. Where's the fun in having companions if you can't have awesome differences in appearance as well as a great personality. It's something that Japanese made RPGs have done for years and can still do very well (in my opinion). However, being unable to change their armor is not cool and so Bioware's compromise is exciting and great. That's just my view though.

DAO was shooting for realistic and armour is not a fashion statement, it's a survival tool. This is where fantasy and realism part ways.



vs



It's perfectly valid to say realism goes out of the window once you introduce elements that medivel armour was never meant to deal with. While I don't get this problem of telling people appart... that's just crazy they are not that small, or similiar. Having an iconic apprearence helps with character. Auron dressed as the guy in white armour, would just not be Auron.

And realism is an issue I have with too many modern RPGs. While watching a video for FFXIV 2.0 and comparing their art with that I've seen from the Dragon Age team. They are leagues apart with Square leading the pack (in my opinion). Realism is nice and all to an extent, but not everything needs to focus on that. I miss RPGs where there were fantastical realms, environments that would leave the player in awe and armor that stood out because it genuinely looked cool.

People here seem to like having realistic armor. Fair enough. However, my opinion stating what I felt about Dragon Age Origins when it came to armor will remain consistent. When the coolest armor sets are the Blood Dragon and Cailan's (again in my opinion), there's something wrong. When all the light armor looks like crap, there's something wrong. When all the characters start looking the exact same, there's something wrong. I like diversity and wildness in my armor. It's an issue I have (to a certain extent) with Skyrim, Dark Souls and Kingdom's of Amalur (though KoA is moving in the right direction with robes and heavy armor that look astounding). That's just me though. I never expected anyone to agree with my view. I just gave it to answer the question posed by the OP. 

Modifié par ChaosAgentLoki, 10 mai 2012 - 05:30 .

[deuce985]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

The proposed DA3 system is certainly miles better than what we saw in DA2

As long as they keep stat-limited armour. If they switch to class-limited armour, then it's only marginally better than DA2, and will require modding to make it playable.

I'm just speculating here but if they do this, it will create much more workload on them. Unless Bioware plans to get more people on their budget for specific things like this...something is going to get sacrificed.

Stat restrictions make sense and is far better. class restrictions isn't a good way to go. But will Bioware have the resources to make armor stat limited instead of class restricitons? I could see Bioware making the companions fit certain roles and therefore, restricting their armor to one classification. Especially if they reflect this in their skill trees like they did in DA2. Like giving them unique skill trees.

Not only does armor have  4 different looks but they also have to jump over to all classifications of armor. Instead of say--Aveline having just Plate armor restrictions, she can wear lighter armor too. That would make the workload even worse and probably triple it since she will have iconic looks in everything.

I could see Bioware making it class restricted for those reasons. That or we'll see some serious recycling in armor graphics like DA:O...

It will be interesting to see what Bioware comes up with. I'm hoping they can keep those iconic looks but not sacrifice too much on the customization. I'm willing to accept some, that's only logical. It's where the compromise happens that matters.

Modifié par deuce985, 10 mai 2012 - 07:45 .

[AkiKishi]

deuce985 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

The proposed DA3 system is certainly miles better than what we saw in DA2

As long as they keep stat-limited armour. If they switch to class-limited armour, then it's only marginally better than DA2, and will require modding to make it playable.

I'm just speculating here but if they do this, it will create much more workload on them. Unless Bioware plans to get more people on their budget for specific things like this...something is going to get sacrificed.

Stat restrictions make sense and is far better. class restrictions isn't a good way to go. But will Bioware have the resources to make armor stat limited instead of class restricitons?

Not only does armor have  4 different looks but they also have to jump over to all classifications of armor. Instead of say--Aveline having just Plate armor restrictions, she can wear lighter armor too. That would make the workload even worse and probably triple it since she will have iconic looks in everything.

I could see Bioware making it class restricted for those reasons. That or we'll see some serious recycling in armor graphics like DA:O...

The most likely way to do it is like it's done in a MMO. Race 1 puts on armour and it has a different apprearence to when race 2 does the same, but the armour itself is identical.

Distinct look and versatility in one package. Otherwise it's the JRPG method where your basic appereance is fixed but you still get the stat benifits for equipment. Not having to draw and model them is a big time saver.

[Sylvius the Mad]

deuce985 wrote...

I'm just speculating here but if they do this, it will create much more workload on them. Unless Bioware plans to get more people on their budget for specific things like this...something is going to get sacrificed.

Stat restrictions make sense and is far better. class restrictions isn't a good way to go. But will Bioware have the resources to make armor stat limited instead of class restricitons? I could see Bioware making the companions fit certain roles and therefore, restricting their armor to one classification. Especially if they reflect this in their skill trees like they did in DA2. Like giving them unique skill trees.

A switch to class-limited armour would be a massive change in how Dragon Age works.  That is absolutely something I would complain about.

And the unique skill trees need to go away.  I hate those unique skill trees.  I used a mod in DA2 to give everyone all of the available skill trees for their class.  Isabela could use a bow and Merril could be a Force Mage and it was good.

Not only does armor have  4 different looks but they also have to jump over to all classifications of armor. Instead of say--Aveline having just Plate armor restrictions, she can wear lighter armor too. That would make the workload even worse and probably triple it since she will have iconic looks in everything.

I want them to realise that iconic looks are a bad idea.

I could see Bioware making it class restricted for those reasons. That or we'll see some serious recycling in armor graphics like DA:O...

I like DAO's armour graphics.

It will be interesting to see what Bioware comes up with. I'm hoping they can keep those iconic looks but not sacrifice too much on the customization.

I hope they restore as much customisation as possible.

DA2's iconic looks were a bad idea, poorly executed.

[Vormaerin]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...


That's how DAO worked, and I really enjoyed it.

That's how DA2 worked, but it was less well done because of the fixed appearances.

err, not really.   There were no tanking skills for rogues.   Yeah, you could pump their strength up instead of Dex, but they wouldn't be a warrior.     No matter how you built Leilana, she wouldn't match Alistair as a tank.   Same with Varric relative to Avelline.

Heck, you really couldn't make Fenris anywhere near as good a tank as Avelline.  You probably could get Sten or Oghren to be tanks, but I think you'd need a respec to do it.

[Vormaerin]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

And the unique skill trees need to go away.  I hate those unique skill trees.  I used a mod in DA2 to give everyone all of the available skill trees for their class.  Isabela could use a bow and Merril could be a Force Mage and it was good.

This we just aren't going to agree on.  I don't want everyone to do the exact same thing.  I don't think Isabella should fight the same as Varric.  I think how they fight is part of their personality and personality is what I want from Bioware NPCs.

If i just want interchangeable combat bots, there are plenty of other games that give that.   For me, the tactics are in figuring out how to use Isabella effectively, not polymorphing her into someone else via a mod.

Modifié par Vormaerin, 11 mai 2012 - 12:29 .

[Jozape]

Vormaerin wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

And the unique skill trees need to go away.  I hate those unique skill trees.  I used a mod in DA2 to give everyone all of the available skill trees for their class.  Isabela could use a bow and Merril could be a Force Mage and it was good.

This we just aren't going to agree on.  I don't want everyone to do the exact same thing.  I don't think Isabella should fight the same as Varric.

They wouldn't have to fight the same. You could still give them the same abilities as before, just there are more options for customizing Isabela and Varric rather than less. And it's not like you couldn't customize either of them before.

[Vormaerin]

Look what he said. He didn't want unique skill trees and modded the game so Varric and Isabella had the same options. There's no reason to allow Bethany to be a blood mage, for instance. It undermines the story and her character.   Isabella has been established as a duellist and melee fighter from the very beginning of her existance in the game.   Turning her into an archer might suit your playstyle, but it doesn't suit her character or in game background.

Modifié par Vormaerin, 11 mai 2012 - 04:49 .