428 réponses à ce sujet

[Karrie788]

No, I hated sacrificing the geth and EDI.

But the alternatives horrified me even more. So, sorry geth, I've been rooting for you since ME1, but I kinda have to take those cuttlefish bastards to hell with me to save the galaxy.

[Icinix]

jreezy wrote...

Icinix wrote...

All three endings are genocide in some form..

Control is genocide?

Eventually. It would appear to be only a temporary call off of the invasion. Sooner or later the Reapers would have to come back and harvest.

[KotorEffect3]

Icinix wrote...

jreezy wrote...

Icinix wrote...

All three endings are genocide in some form..

Control is genocide?

Eventually. It would appear to be only a temporary call off of the invasion. Sooner or later the Reapers would have to come back and harvest.

Yeah I just don't trust the control ending and the synthesis ending is too creepy.

[The Night Mammoth]

vixvicco wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

vixvicco wrote...

I don't get how people get all emotional about the geth. Like really? Just because they can imitate being human, doesn't make them equal to a person. So people are actually conflicted about this choice because they are afraid to kill a machine? That like saying you don't want to shut down a computer because you're scared you'll hurt its feelings. 
Plus, the Reapers clearly weren't created by organics, whereas the geth where. If I had to consider it genocide, I would only consider it so in regards to the Reapers, who you want to kill anyway. They are partly organic as well, which is another point. I like Legion, but to save him over a living, breathing thing? Stupid.

Did you save the Geth? 

You mean with Tali vs Legion? Believe it or not, I tried to. I didn't have enough reputation points. I would have though.

Then you missed out on crucial plot points that prove your statement utterly wrong. 

Actually, did you ever talk to Legion, or EDI, in both ME2 and 3?

[arathor_87]

The other options ain't better, mind-rape the whole galaxy and force them to be a mix between organic and synthetic life.

Or control something who tried to harvest all advanced organic life in the galaxy, and it's not even 100% you can control them forever. We don't know how controlling the reapers will affect Shepard, maybe he will try to harvest the galaxy in the future?

But I'm 100% sure that destroying the reapers will kill them. Even if all geth dies, they can be rebuilt in the future. If all organic life dies, it can't be rebuilt. I know that organic life will survive if I choose control, but I won't be sure for how long. The reapers would still be alive.

Modifié par arathor_87, 09 mai 2012 - 12:08 .

[vixvicco]

Joccaren wrote...

vixvicco wrote...

I don't get how people get all emotional about the geth. Like really? Just because they can imitate being human, doesn't make them equal to a person. So people are actually conflicted about this choice because they are afraid to kill a machine? That like saying you don't want to shut down a computer because you're scared you'll hurt its feelings. 
Plus, the Reapers clearly weren't created by organics, whereas the geth where. If I had to consider it genocide, I would only consider it so in regards to the Reapers, who you want to kill anyway. They are partly organic as well, which is another point. I like Legion, but to save him over a living, breathing thing? Stupid.

What you and so many others do not get is that we are equal to SENTIENT machines, like the Geth.

We are both made of circuitry. We both 'exist' because of electrical impulses running along that circuitry. The difference is our circuitry is made of Carbon, Hydrogen, Nitrogen, Phosphorous, Oxygen and Sulfur.

You can build more machines, but can you make them sentient?

Its like saying wiping out humanity isn't a bad thing, because cockroaches would still exist, and someone else could breed cockroaches. Well, yeah, cockroaches will exist... but are they us? No. They're not sentient, they're not us, and I'm pretty sure you'd argue against anyone who tried to use that sort of logic - so why does that logic apply to the Geth.

"If the Quarians build them the same way they'll be the same" - no they won't. The Geth aren't simply hardware. The hardware is irrelevant. The software is what the Geth are. That Software was given Reaper code by Legion - converting it into a true sentients. Pre that, the Geth were sentient as a whole group, but not when individual. Now, each individual Geth is a sentient being akin to a human.

Shutting down a computer and killing the Geth are not the same - or even similar. Saying they are is like saying giving an ant some sleeping drugs is the same as wiping out humanity. Its not. Don't even try that.

As for the "Just because they can imitate being human" argument: They aren't imitating being human. What you call being human is actually known as sentients - something which the Geth have achieved by the end of ME3. Its like saying "Just 'cause Turians can imitate being human" or "Just because Salarians can imitate being human".



Now, I'm not unreasonable. Give me one logical, thought out reason why the Geth are so fundamentally different to us that they cannot be considered alive, and if it is inarguable, I'll accept it. You won't be able to come up with one though. You can only come up with the equivilent of Racism towards the Geth. "They're different so they're not equal to us". I don't think I need to bring up where that logic has been used before, nor the affects of that.

We will have to agree to disagree, but I admit you have some very very good points. I still don't believe the sentinent being aspect. I still consider that programming. What's the difference between EDI, the android body she posseses, the geth and/or even the Normandy itself? Code. Programming. Sure, they can rebel against that programming, but they will always need to search for pre-existing knowledge to do EVERYTHING. For example, I could get in a fight, not knowing how to fight (never having fought before or knowing how to punch), and I could still win. EDI/Geth have to look up the concept of love, voilence, anger or hate. EDI had to verify with Shepard why they were still fighting despite the fact their odds were not good. But every organic knew why. Hope. 

I'm not saying their simply hardware, I would never say that. They are more than that, for sure. I even said given the choice I would have saved them (Tali Vs Legion), but I didn't have enough Rep points. I'm just saying I find it difficult to find that choice conflicting. Its like the Bicentennial Man (if you've ever seen that, so old school). I cried at the end when he "died". I like him, I loved him. But it does not change the fact that he could not just feel love, he had to look it up. Difference between him and the Terminator? Code. Programming.

Answer to your question: "You can build more machines, but can you make them sentient? " You cant make a machine sentinent, because its an illusion. Humans/Turians/Quarians/Krogans are similar-as you said with electrolytes, carbon etc, but not the same.

EDIT: Noticed post below: "EDI said at least in two diferent ocassions that she'd give her life to stop the Reapers" EDI's programming is also on the ship. If she is so called, "sentinent", then we're all good, right? Unless destroy meant wiping out ship programming as well. In which case, how did Joker escape?

Modifié par vixvicco, 09 mai 2012 - 12:17 .

[Shallyah]

The Night Mammoth wrote...


Actually, did you ever talk to Legion, or EDI, in both ME2 and 3?

EDI said at least in two diferent ocassions that she'd give her life to stop the Reapers. Turns out she doesn't even have to, according the rumours.

I can't help to remember the conversation with Hacket where Shepard mentions that TIM thinks that controlling Reapers is how we win. Hackett says, literally "He is wrong. Dead Reapers is how we win."

I chose to save the council sacrificing human lives, is that to be counted too as a Renegade option? To sacrifice a few for the Greater Good? Besides, despite the passionate defenses of some hypocritical/cynic people in here, Geth are just an imitation of life, not real life.

Sacrificing the Geth, who are willing to give their lives to defeat the Reapers, for the Greater Good, isn't an evil or selfish move. I'd do the same if it was humans that would have to be sacrificed, without a second thought. I sure don't feel proud about destroying the Geth, but I'd feel incredibly more ashamed and unredeemable if I had chosen to allow the Reapers to keep existing while I play god with them.

Modifié par Shallyah, 09 mai 2012 - 12:14 .

[Icinix]

jreezy wrote...

Icinix wrote...

jreezy wrote...

Icinix wrote...

All three endings are genocide in some form..

Control is genocide?

Eventually. It would appear to be only a temporary call off of the invasion. Sooner or later the Reapers would have to come back and harvest.

Genocide is systematic destruction of a group though. The point of control isn't to eventually come back and harvest the galaxy.

I thought the catalyst was saying that control was effectively agreeing with it that eventually synthetics would rise up and the Reapers would continue their cycle, it was only a buying time measure.

Thus, the cycle continues and the lead races are all harvested eventually anyway.

[Knottedredloc]

The Geth, EDI, and every other species joined the war effort knowing that death was a possiblity. My job was to destroy the Reapers and destroy them I did.

If Cerberus was able to bring me back from being dead then I am sure EDI and the Geth can be brought back from whatever backup discs or hard-drives they are sure to have laying around.

[The Night Mammoth]

vixvicco wrote...
 I still don't believe the sentinent being aspect. I still consider that programming. What's the difference between EDI, the android body she posseses, the geth and/or even the Normandy itself? 

They display all the characteristics of a sapient being. 

Side note: they're quite clearly sentient. Sapience and sentience are different things. A dog is sentient but no sapient, but humans are both. 

Whether their emotions or feelings, or their decision making process, is simulated by code is irrelevant. These characteristics are simulated within humans too, just using chemical processes and electical bursts across neurons instead of the mechanical processes of programming and code. The difference you're assuming is that these reactions are predetermined with a machine, whereas they're spontaneous with us. 

These things physically cant be determined by code. If EDI's emotions and attachment to the crew are determined by code then this would have had to have been written into her from the very beginning, which is evidently not true.  

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 09 mai 2012 - 12:27 .

[AxecObl]

My Shepard spent three whole games doing whatever was necessary to be able destroy the Reapers. He did not spend three games trying to be able to control the Reapers, and definitely not trying to force all life to become both organic and machine. So destroy is the only viable option. It was the only choice in the completely **** endings that even resembled something close to what Shepard had been striving towards through out the series.

[CaptFrost]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

Do you enjoy commiting genocide, Shepard?

Well, considering the other two choices were suicide and death for all (who really believed you'd die yet still control the Reapers?), or genocide on a galactic scale, permanently deactivated Geth and EDI seemed a small sacrifice in comparison.

Hell, it's not like the Artistic Vision of Glorious Integrity allowed any other option.

[PreGy]

I would sacrifice Earth if that what it takes. I would even sacrifice the current "superior" organic life (turian, asari, humans, etc...) if that would erase the thread of Reapers once and for all.

The risk is too high: the whole galaxy is a Reaper farm, and who knows how many other galaxies they harvest too. Totally worth in any case.

Modifié par PreGy, 09 mai 2012 - 12:33 .

[cogsandcurls]

As far as I'm concerned, I didn't kill anyone. The only reason anyone thinks that it'll kill EDI and the Geth is that Casper says it will, and since Casper has terrible logic and reasoning, a vested interest in getting me to not pick red AND his implication Shep was going to die turned out to be an outright lie, I choose to believe it was a bluff. They're fine.

[kleindropper]

Robot genocide? Just build some more!

[vixvicco]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

vixvicco wrote...
 I still don't believe the sentinent being aspect. I still consider that programming. What's the difference between EDI, the android body she posseses, the geth and/or even the Normandy itself? 

They display all the characteristics of a sapient being. 

Side note: they're quite clearly sentient. Sapience and sentience are different things. A dog is sentient but no sapient, but humans are both. 

Whether their emotions or feelings, or their decision making process, is simulated by code is irrelevant. These characteristics are simulated within humans too, just using chemical processes and electical bursts across neurons instead of the mechanical processes of programming and code. The difference you're assuming is that these reactions are predetermined with a machine, whereas they're spontaneous with us. 

These things physically cant be determined by code. If EDI's emotions and attachment to the crew are determined by code then this would have had to have been written into her from the very beginning, which is evidently not true.  

 But you admit you would never choose to save EDI over Joker right? If both were dying? Or would you say it's an immoral choice either way? Seeing as both are considering living beings? If it is immoral to chose Joker over EDI, then yes, killing the Geth is genocide.
 But yes, I see your point. She does show a loyatly that cleary was not necessarily programmed into her and she did go Rogue.

Modifié par vixvicco, 09 mai 2012 - 12:55 .

[Rolling Flame]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

Do you enjoy commiting genocide, Shepard?

Yes.

Problem?

[Montana]

I didn't die when I chose destroy, and neither did the geth/edi.
Prove me wrong...

[Flamewielder]

Didn't think anything of it.... too busy genociding the Reapers to care.

[BDelacroix]

So you totally believe everything your arch enemy tells you because he would never lie.

[Wolf]

Assuming the Catalyst is even telling the truth, no.

Then again people have reported seeing EDI walk out of the Normandy even when you pick the red ending, so everything is still up in the air about that.

And the Reapers do have a history with deceit so I suppose anything's possible at the moment.

[SquirrelWiz]

the way I saw it, the Kill ending was the only ending that actually did something about the reapers. The control an synthesis ending left the Reapers twiddling their thumbs while they figure out what to do (or listen to Shepherd Rick Roll them 24/7)

The problem was that I couldn't say for certain that they'd leave. If they did, I don't know if they'd stay gone, or start up their "cycle" business in some other galaxy.

It sucked, but I wanted the reaper threat to end then and there. I wasn't going to pass the buck along and hope everything went alright. The sacrifices of the synthetics was merely part of the "cold calculus" of war.

[D1ck1e]

My main issue with the Destroy ending is that I don't know anything about the extent of the destruction. For instance, I see the reapers on earth falling on the ground, but they are not blowing up, so what's keeping us from reactivating all that has been deactivated? I mean except for the relays. Did we all of a sudden forget how to build machines?

Now, might be lazyness, but in the destroy ending below, after Joker crashes the Normandy, you can see it still has some power to it, and Garus suit seems to be powered up as well.

Modifié par D1ck1e, 09 mai 2012 - 01:22 .

[BinaryHelix101]

The way I did the ending at first. Synthesis because I didn't know what the hell to do (because halfway through I got tired of listening to that annoying kid and just idled the rest of the game).

Second time through I picked destroy because if Shepard doesn't die because of it, maybe EDI and the geth won't. Yeah I know, meta-reason.