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[The Night Mammoth]

vixvicco wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

vixvicco wrote...
 I still don't believe the sentinent being aspect. I still consider that programming. What's the difference between EDI, the android body she posseses, the geth and/or even the Normandy itself? 

They display all the characteristics of a sapient being. 

Side note: they're quite clearly sentient. Sapience and sentience are different things. A dog is sentient but no sapient, but humans are both. 

Whether their emotions or feelings, or their decision making process, is simulated by code is irrelevant. These characteristics are simulated within humans too, just using chemical processes and electical bursts across neurons instead of the mechanical processes of programming and code. The difference you're assuming is that these reactions are predetermined with a machine, whereas they're spontaneous with us. 

These things physically cant be determined by code. If EDI's emotions and attachment to the crew are determined by code then this would have had to have been written into her from the very beginning, which is evidently not true.  

 But you admit you would never choose to save EDI over Joker right? If both were dying? Or would you say it's an immoral choice either way? Seeing as both are considering living beings? If it is immoral to chose Joker over EDI, then yes, killing the Geth is genocide.

Genocide isn't the right term. It has a more specific meaning. 

That said, I still didn't like killing the Geth. I saw their deaths as necessary, but the fact that they were Geth, synthetic, didn't factor into the decision to choose the red door. If it were humans I would pick it. If it were Asari I would pick it. It's an unethical choice regardless for my Paragon Shepard.

So no, I wouldn't choose between the two on the basis of one being synthetic and the other being organic, just like I couldn't choose between Ashley and Kaidan and ended up having two playthroughs. 

But yes, I see your point. She does show a loyatly that cleary was not necessarily programmed into her and she did go Rogue.

Rogue against Cerberus yes. 

[vixvicco]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

vixvicco wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

vixvicco wrote...

I don't get how people get all emotional about the geth. Like really? Just because they can imitate being human, doesn't make them equal to a person. So people are actually conflicted about this choice because they are afraid to kill a machine? That like saying you don't want to shut down a computer because you're scared you'll hurt its feelings. 
Plus, the Reapers clearly weren't created by organics, whereas the geth where. If I had to consider it genocide, I would only consider it so in regards to the Reapers, who you want to kill anyway. They are partly organic as well, which is another point. I like Legion, but to save him over a living, breathing thing? Stupid.

Did you save the Geth? 

You mean with Tali vs Legion? Believe it or not, I tried to. I didn't have enough reputation points. I would have though.

Then you missed out on crucial plot points that prove your statement utterly wrong. 

Actually, did you ever talk to Legion, or EDI, in both ME2 and 3?

I did talk to them. It didn't make a difference in my final decision.  I do agree with you when you say that "That said, I still didn't like killing the Geth. I saw their deaths as necessary, but the fact that they were Geth, synthetic, didn't factor into the decision to choose the red door. If it were humans I would pick it. If it were Asari I would pick it."

In the end all I meant to say was that the geth factor did not make it a difficult choice for me, like it seems to have been for other people. This is just based on my opinions of Geth/EDI. I like them, but I could never take them seriously. What I meant was that it was the least taxing decision (at least for me). It would not motivate me to choose synthesis or control.  It was a cheap move from Bioware anyway. :/ Meh.

Modifié par vixvicco, 09 mai 2012 - 01:38 .

[Alamar2078]

Genocide, Slavery, or Ethnocide ... not really any happy-smiley choice there.

[The Night Mammoth]

vixvicco wrote...

I did talk to them. It didn't make a difference in my final decision.  I do agree with you when you say that "That said, I still didn't like killing the Geth. I saw their deaths as necessary, but the fact that they were Geth, synthetic, didn't factor into the decision to choose the red door. If it were humans I would pick it. If it were Asari I would pick it."

In the end all I meant to say was that the geth factor did not make it a difficult choice for me, like it seems to have been for other people. This is just based on my opinions of Geth/EDI. I like them, but I could never take them seriously. What I meant was that it was the least taxing decision (at least for me). It would not motivate me to choose synthesis or control.  It was a cheap move from Bioware anyway. :/ Meh.

Fair enough. 

It still seems that when some people talk about how the Geth and EDI are 'just machines' they missed quite a lot of dialogue. 

Even before Rannoch, probably way back in ME2, you could see they were far more than just clever machines, the pressence of the Heretic Geth should prove that. EDI making a conscious decison to turn on the Illusive Man and remain loyal to her crew should have hammered that home.

None of that is a jab at you, by the way, just talking out loud so to speak. 

[Cyne]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

Do you enjoy commiting genocide, Shepard?

Yes. What can I say, some species just ****** me off. Shepard out.

[Zardoc]

No, I don't. But I like doing what's right. If the geth have to die for that, then so be it.

Modifié par Zardoc, 09 mai 2012 - 02:02 .

[MattFini]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

Do you enjoy commiting genocide, Shepard?

Yes.  It tasted (sort of) like victory.  

Still anticlimactic and goofy, but not as flat-out stupid as the other options (become a ghost or grotesque eugenics). 

Modifié par MattFini, 09 mai 2012 - 02:06 .

[Shallyah]

The Night Mammoth wrote...


It still seems that when some people talk about how the Geth and EDI are 'just machines' they missed quite a lot of dialogue. 

Didn't miss any dialogue myself. I just didn't buy it. I don't buy the Geth consensus which is a desperate attempt of Bioware to turn players into sympathyzing the Geth, only to make picking Destroy a harder moral choice. And definitely I don't buy any similar attempts for the writers of the game to make it seem like artificial spacejunk which is a joke, an imitation, can compare in any way to real life.

True AI hasn't even been discovered yet in reality, so the Geth are basically some humans at Bioware trying to imitate how true AI would imitate life. It's not even imitation of life. It's the imitation of an imitation. I don't care how expensive the Geth are trying to be sold, or how hard the game tries. Machines are machines, and sci-fi isn't going to buy them any more sympathy than that.

Feel sorry about the Geth? Probably, yes. Especially after I managed to get the quarians to get along with them and help each other. Feel bad about destroying them so that the Reapears can be destroyed? Hell no. I feel bad for the 300,000 batarians I killed in Arrival. But the Geth make me feel as bad as if I had to destroy all the televisions of the world to remove the Reapers. They will be missed, but we'll just build more, if we even decide they're worth building again.

Modifié par Shallyah, 09 mai 2012 - 02:25 .

[Navasha]

You mean choosing victory over the reapers instead of surrendering to them? I did actually enjoy picking the only option that allows victory.

[frylock23]

iakus wrote...

Depends on the species, turian.

But seriously, I picked destroy absolutely hating it.

But I hated the other options more.

It helped in that playthrough that I didn't have any Geth to consider.

Modifié par frylock23, 09 mai 2012 - 02:21 .

[vixvicco]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

vixvicco wrote...

I did talk to them. It didn't make a difference in my final decision.  I do agree with you when you say that "That said, I still didn't like killing the Geth. I saw their deaths as necessary, but the fact that they were Geth, synthetic, didn't factor into the decision to choose the red door. If it were humans I would pick it. If it were Asari I would pick it."

In the end all I meant to say was that the geth factor did not make it a difficult choice for me, like it seems to have been for other people. This is just based on my opinions of Geth/EDI. I like them, but I could never take them seriously. What I meant was that it was the least taxing decision (at least for me). It would not motivate me to choose synthesis or control.  It was a cheap move from Bioware anyway. :/ Meh.

Fair enough. 

It still seems that when some people talk about how the Geth and EDI are 'just machines' they missed quite a lot of dialogue. 

Even before Rannoch, probably way back in ME2, you could see they were far more than just clever machines, the pressence of the Heretic Geth should prove that. EDI making a conscious decison to turn on the Illusive Man and remain loyal to her crew should have hammered that home.

None of that is a jab at you, by the way, just talking out loud so to speak. 

I see what you mean. I think our discussion's been civil lol (def a lot more compared to the others I've had with other people on these forums). Actually, I think I learn a lot more about the game through discussion and arguement. Makes me want to pay attention more. 

Modifié par vixvicco, 09 mai 2012 - 03:10 .

[Fade9wayz]

I viewed this more like a terrible sacrifice, than a genocide. Though that was still a better choice than the two others. Especially since I had no reason to believe starbrat. I mean controlling Reapers while DEAD? How stupid is that? And I view Synthesis as equally abhorrent since then I would condemn all form of life to slavery, so if I had to wipe out the whole galaxy to ensure there would be no more Reapers, I would and wish good luck to pyjacks and varrens.

However, even then I cannot be sure all Reapers were destroyed now, can I? Some might have stayed in deep space (although probably not enough for them to be a galactic threat anymore). It's even worse with IT, since even the destroy ending could be a hallucination for all we know, and Reapers are still harvesting while Shep was out cold shaking off the Indoctrination. No matter how I look at it, these endings suck, Destroy just a little less!

Modifié par Fade9wayz, 09 mai 2012 - 03:27 .

[Kunari801]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

Do you enjoy commiting genocide, Shepard?

Which war crime did you commit?  


 

[NM_Che56]

Prove to me that what star brat said came true. Show me screenshots of the Geth in piles and EDI deactivated.

FYI: Why would Joker be smiling after when exiting the Normandy if EDI died?

[tekkaman fear]

Eh, I'm the "Butcher of Torfan" so...didn't bother me...

Besides the Geth aren't truly alive. Simulated sentience is just that...a simulation.
"Does this unit have a soul?" No you don't have a soul!

[wantedman dan]

tekkaman fear wrote...

Eh, I'm the "Butcher of Torfan" so...didn't bother me...

Besides the Geth aren't truly alive. Simulated sentience is just that...a simulation.
"Does this unit have a soul?" No you don't have a soul!

That's... disturbing.

[Galifreya]

Master Che wrote...

Prove to me that what star brat said came true. Show me screenshots of the Geth in piles and EDI deactivated.

FYI: Why would Joker be smiling after when exiting the Normandy if EDI died?

This. And she can step out of the Normandy if you pick destroy. BioWare has confirmed that this is NOT a bug or an oversight. I refuse to believe the Geth are dead and gone until I see them fall to the ground like the Reapers did.

Catalyst lied.

Modifié par Gallifreya, 09 mai 2012 - 03:14 .

[NM_Che56]

Gallifreya wrote...

Master Che wrote...

Prove to me that what star brat said came true. Show me screenshots of the Geth in piles and EDI deactivated.

FYI: Why would Joker be smiling after when exiting the Normandy if EDI died?

This. And she can step out of the Normandy if you pick destroy. BioWare has confirmed that this is NOT a bug or an oversight. I refuse to believe the Geth are dead and gone until I see them fall to the ground like the Reapers did.

Catalyst lied.

Here here!

That whole ending was full of mind f***ery!  The switching of the colors to throw you off.  The false sense of urgency they give you as you run to the beam.

I'm not going to say IT, but SOMETHING is afoot and don't give me "lazy writing" or "bad writing".  This feels too deliberate and it seems to have done the trick (that equates to sucess).

There's a whole thread of people who wanted to pick destroy but picked the wrong choice instead OR almost picked the wrong choice.

[wantedman dan]

Gallifreya wrote...

Master Che wrote...

Prove to me that what star brat said came true. Show me screenshots of the Geth in piles and EDI deactivated.

FYI: Why would Joker be smiling after when exiting the Normandy if EDI died?

This. And she can step out of the Normandy if you pick destroy. BioWare has confirmed that this is NOT a bug or an oversight. I refuse to believe the Geth are dead and gone until I see them fall to the ground like the Reapers did.

Catalyst lied.

How the f*ck do you get this to happen?!

[BDelacroix]

Catalyst lied and shephard died. Or did he?

[NM_Che56]

BDelacroix wrote...

Catalyst lied and shephard died. Or did he?

[wook77]

OP, your position is based on the idea that Spacekid is completely right and truthful. That isn't at all true. The Spacekid is an unreliable narrator who, at its base core, wants to survive. He'll tell you anything that he thinks will keep you from killing him. In fact, Spacekid says that since Shepard is also partially synthetic, he would die as well and, yet, I got the breathing Shepard scene where he clearly didn't die, disproving Spacekid.

As we only see the Reapers shutting down with no follow-through for the rest of the Fleet, there is no "proof" that Spacekid did anything other than lie (as illustrated in the "breathing Shepard" scene) in a blatant attempt to survive.

So hows about stopping the accusations of genocide?

[Dr. Megaverse]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

Do you enjoy commiting genocide, Shepard?

Obvious troll is obvious

[Talogrungi]

Yo dawg, I heard you made some synthetics to kill us every 50k years to prevent us being killed by synthetics, so I killed the synthetics made to kill us every 50k years to prevent us being killed by synthetics so we won't be killed by synthetics.

Still better logic than "kill yourself to control us" and "space magic!".

Modifié par Talogrungi, 09 mai 2012 - 03:34 .

[lordofdogtown19]

Frankly no.

Firstly the geth, and everyone else for that matter, came into this war knowing they might die. Their sacrifice will be honored in the coming empire.

Secondly, it's sad to admit but, the geth are machines. It's not that I would want to kill them it's just if I had to choose a species to sacrifice, it'd be the geth. Plus I can rebuild them. We have the technology.

Now a question for you OP. How to you feel about siding with the Reapers?

Modifié par lordofdogtown19, 09 mai 2012 - 03:36 .