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[The Angry One]

ChickenDownUnder wrote...

While the desire to get together with The Angry One and create an army of cynical, opinionated posters is strong, past gaming experience makes me want to agree more with the fanman. Though truth be told, I want to be wrong.

The days of BG are in the past, developers simply do not impose strict canon on players like they used to as it tends to, you know, cheese us off.
KotOR's so-called canon was imposed by stupid idiots in Lucasfilm, who are stupid idiots. So who cares about them; BioWare/Obsidian's intentions was for players to define their own canon.

Also, I'm not cynical. Just a realist. And I don't mince my feelings!

As an aside, laughing in the face of all things "canon" in videogames is the wonderful Saints Row 2, where you can be a male or female, or whatever inbetween (seriously) and yet in Saints Row 1, you could only be a man (you are the same character in both games).
So what did the developers say? If your character is a girl in SR2, then she was in SR1. To hell with the canon, have FUN.

Best reasoning ever.

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Angry One wrote...
KotOR's so-called canon was imposed by stupid idiots in Lucasfilm, who are stupid idiots. So who cares about them; BioWare/Obsidian's intentions was for players to define their own canon.

I have come to see anything said or done by something starting with "Lucas" turns out to be stupidity.
I have played KOTOR a million times and still I find no reason to side with the people who wiped my memory off and used me against my own people and Empire!! For once, I sure admire the Jedi for being manipulative, decietful, cunning plotters. But I see no reason to side with them except "I am a servant of the light" bullcrap.
Why would anyone accept a medal from a midget that still insists on calling you padawan (!!!), when one can have his own empire?!?!  But nooo, Canon dictates that Revan had to be an idiot.

Finally someone else out there.  

And no canon. Ever. The only canon I accept is Fable II, where they say that the hero in Fable I was a ruthless guy.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 09 décembre 2009 - 01:49 .

[The Angry One]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
KotOR's so-called canon was imposed by stupid idiots in Lucasfilm, who are stupid idiots. So who cares about them; BioWare/Obsidian's intentions was for players to define their own canon.

I have come to see anything said or done by something starting with "Lucas" turns out to be stupidity.
I have played KOTOR a million times and still I find no reason to side with the people who wiped my memory off and used me against my own people and Empire!! For once, I sure admire the Jedi for being manipulative, decietful, cunning plotters. But I see no reason to side with them except "I am a servant of the light" bullcrap.
Why would anyone accept a medal from a midget that still insists on calling you padawan (!!!), when one can have his own empire?!?! 

Finally someone else out there.  

That was sort of my reasoning too; though along with the Jedi manipulation I was interested in the idea that Revan's will was so indomitable that no outside force could change her (mine being female, of course :happy:) path and destiny, to be the Dark Lord.
Actually KotOR1/2 are the only BioWare style (I said STYLE so that includes 2, nitpickers!) games where I feel comfortable being evil, despite the outright pettiness of some evil acts. Maybe it's because I dislike the sanctimoniousness of the Jedi so much.

[Tianwyn]

If canon says that the PC was male and lurrved Morrigan, then I will disapprove -100.



Though if the god-child becomes canon and is the PC for the next game, or the villain, I'll be ok with it, just as long as the player can make up their own minds as to how it came to be.

[The Angry One]

I'm certain the devil-child will be canon, because every single player path can lead to the ritual with Morrigan and thus takes very little effort to explain away and steps on the least amount of toes.

Well aside from those people who consistently expel Morrigan in Lothering.. but hey, does anyone really do that? I hate the woman and I still keep her.

[ChickenDownUnder]

The Angry One wrote...

The days of BG are in the past, developers simply do not impose strict canon on players like they used to as it tends to, you know, cheese us off.
KotOR's so-called canon was imposed by stupid idiots in Lucasfilm, who are stupid idiots. So who cares about them; BioWare/Obsidian's intentions was for players to define their own canon.

Let's hope so. The whole "spiritual successor of BG" raised a few red flags with me.

Also, I'm not cynical. Just a realist. And I don't mince my feelings!

But what if I offered you a cookie?

As an aside, laughing in the face of all things "canon" in videogames is the wonderful Saints Row 2, where you can be a male or female, or whatever inbetween (seriously) and yet in Saints Row 1, you could only be a man (you are the same character in both games).
So what did the developers say? If your character is a girl in SR2, then she was in SR1. To hell with the canon, have FUN.

Best reasoning ever.

Heh, I still go back to playing that game every once in awhile. My gang running around in ninja costumes was hilarious.

The only problem with that example is that the do anything, be anything trait is the hallmark of open world games, were DA is... well, not an open world game. That could change in DA2 of course, but seems unlikely.

[CronoDragoon]

scrimex wrote...

CronoDragoon, The Angry One although the 2 of you might disagree to the latter I would say just because someone calls you a silly name doesn't mean you are what they call you, to the former I would say that your silly name makes you what you are....... a dope.

You don't even know what my name means, so I'm confused why you think I'm a dope. As to the Angry One, you called people stupid for believing that male lead would be canon, and then used nothing to back it up except the fact that you liked the Alistair romance a lot more than the Morrigan romance. Moreover, you were being very condescending about it when the OP actually made a good post that flamed no one.

Do you think you're being hardcore or a badass when you call someone stupid? Do you think people who object to your style of posting "can't handle it" as if you were killing babies or something? You're posting on an internet forum, you are not cool.

I have no objection to your side of the argument, and I actually think that the female lead story is much better than the male one. I similarly believe the whole "god-child" thing is crappy storytelling. But I'm not going to call someone stupid when they post their reasons for believing the male lead will be canon, because he isn't. I'll save that word for people who actually deserve it.

[The Angry One]

ChickenDownUnder wrote...

Let's hope so. The whole "spiritual successor of BG" raised a few red flags with me.

Well it undeniably is, however DA is still very much a modern game with equal thought and care put into both male and female roles. I don't think BioWare would squander that.

But what if I offered you a cookie?

I'd take the cookie but would remain unchanged!

Heh, I still go back to playing that game every once in awhile. My gang running around in ninja costumes was hilarious.

The only problem with that example is that the do anything, be anything trait is the hallmark of open world games, were DA is... well, not an open world game. That could change in DA2 of course, but seems unlikely.

While it is open world SR2 did have a fairly involving plot, while there were no RPG style choices the dialog was fairly good. And hey seeing my small asian girl beat the crap out of steroid muscle men and shoot unarmed cripples without pity was pretty damn hilarious.

[The Angry One]

I called him an idiot because his reasoning was biased and ill-thought out, and I honestly didn't care to explain why it was biased and ill-thought out.

I also found it fairly offensive, don't tell me that the game wasn't crafted around being a certain gender and origin when I feel it definitely was, equally with all the others of course.

Modifié par The Angry One, 09 décembre 2009 - 02:08 .

[EJ42]

The Angry One wrote...

The more I read the OP the more I laugh. Morrigan was "intended" to be romanced by the PC was she?

It's funny then how Alistair's romance is so much better written than the shallow egotistical claptrap that is the Morrigan romance.. if you can even call it that.
I bet this guy has played through once, with one character and determined that this shall be canon. It's people like him that created the whole KotOR canon disaster.

Here is why you are wrong...

As a male PC, you cannot romance Alistair.

If the Alistair romance was done better, it's because a female player would likely care more about it.

It's all about the target audience.

I chose to go the Leliana route my first time through, and I've gone through most all of the endings except for allowing Loghain to live (I hate him), and I completely agree with the OP.

It just sounds like something Bioware would do.  Searching for Morrigan just opens up so many possibilities.

[The Angry One]

EJ42 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

The more I read the OP the more I laugh. Morrigan was "intended" to be romanced by the PC was she?

It's funny then how Alistair's romance is so much better written than the shallow egotistical claptrap that is the Morrigan romance.. if you can even call it that.
I bet this guy has played through once, with one character and determined that this shall be canon. It's people like him that created the whole KotOR canon disaster.

Here is why you are wrong...

As a male PC, you cannot romance Alistair.

If the Alistair romance was done better, it's because a female player would likely care more about it.

It's all about the target audience.

I chose to go the Leliana route my first time through, and I've gone through most all of the endings except for allowing Loghain to live (I hate him), and I completely agree with the OP.

It just sounds like something Bioware would do.  Searching for Morrigan just opens up so many possibilities.

How does that in any way prove me wrong?
It's my whole point, Alistair is female only, and in my opinion is written better, therefore you cannot claim that the game was written primarily with male PCs in mind or that Morrigan's romance is so overridingly good and deep (hint: it's not),

[CronoDragoon]

Why do you think the OP is "telling" you what you should believe? He's asking you what you think and posting the reasons for his own opinion. I'm sorry that you so strongly believe you are right that you are offended when someone posts something different, but the OP didn't come into a topic about female lead being canon, call people idiots, and then fail to explain why. If you "didn't feel" like posting explanations of your opinion, then that's fine. But in any serious discussion/debate you'd be laughed out of the room.



That being said, the entire god-child plotline is thoroughly stupid. I could buy the reason they provided as to why Grey Wardens must kill the Archdemon(contrived as it was), but the explanation for why the god-child idea would work is pretty silly for a few reasons. One is that it's inconsistent with Morrigan's character. Another is that conception is never guaranteed. I would have loled if I stabbed the archdemon and looked over to Morrigan rubbing her belly and she says, "Damn, looks like your boys can't swim."



I don't like endings that feel sacrificed in the service of future games, and this one definitely did.



And yes, the whole KOTOR thing was monkey balls.

[The Angry One]

I'm not saying my female should be canon, I'm saying that all origins and genders should be considered equally. What the OP is claiming that the game is geared in a certain way (male noble morrigan romance) when it clearly is not. So yes I get angry and flame. That's me.



The game only seems geared that way if that's all you've ever played, it's a wrong and biased view to be presenting.

[EJ42]

The Angry One wrote...

How does that in any way prove me wrong?
It's my whole point, Alistair is female only, and in my opinion is written better, therefore you cannot claim that the game was written primarily with male PCs in mind or that Morrigan's romance is so overridingly good and deep (hint: it's not),

Work on your reading comprehension a bit.

I thought I was quite clear when I stated how that argument is a fallacy.

The female-player romances were most likely written better because female players would care more about it.

They don't write "chick flicks" for guys.

[Tianwyn]

Searching for Morrigan just opens up so many possibilities.

Yes, you would get to see so many new places in the wild as you searched for the woman who, by her own admission, never wants to see you again. *romantic sigh*

[ChickenDownUnder]

The Angry One wrote...

Well it undeniably is, however DA is still very much a modern game with equal thought and care put into both male and female roles. I don't think BioWare would squander that.

The illusion of choice doesn't actually mean it is, but I'll settle with certain things in DA2 being conveniently vague to allow for different game interpretations. It's like being able to pick from three different dlg options that basically mean and lead to the same thing; sure, you can decide which of the three in the conversation, you can be male or female, but you'll still be railroaded into a scene of Morrigan offering the Dark Ritual.

I'd take the cookie but would remain unchanged!

As long as you keep coming back for cookies, I wouldn't have it any other way.

Modifié par ChickenDownUnder, 09 décembre 2009 - 02:25 .

[The Angry One]

EJ42 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

How does that in any way prove me wrong?
It's my whole point, Alistair is female only, and in my opinion is written better, therefore you cannot claim that the game was written primarily with male PCs in mind or that Morrigan's romance is so overridingly good and deep (hint: it's not),

Work on your reading comprehension a bit.

I thought I was quite clear when I stated how that argument is a fallacy.

The female-player romances were most likely written better because female players would care more about it.

They don't write "chick flicks" for guys.

My comprehension is fine. Perhaps my mind didn't want to consider that you were saying something so stupid.
Are you seriously suggesting that Alistair's romance is written better than Morrigan's because females must care about it more therefore it doesn't matter? What? So males won't care about Morrigan even if she said "blibble blobble bed me tee hee"? 

Besides which, even if you were right, it'd still show BioWare cares to make the female side just as involved as the male so... what's your point?

[CronoDragoon]

The Angry One wrote...
I also found it fairly offensive, don't tell me that the game wasn't crafted around being a certain gender and origin when I feel it definitely was, equally with all the others of course.

I see what you are saying now, it's just this part that made me think you were saying female lead is canon, since you appear to be saying "I feel it definitely was" geared towards a certain gender and origin. My bad on that, then, read this sentence wrong.

I also think you are right that all origins need to be considered equally as canon until BW states otherwise. I think each origin was inserted into a plot in such a way to make them all relevant; for example, you never know what happened to the dwarf king's second son if you play anything but Dwarven Noble origin, in which case you'd know that he's....YOU!

I think it's cool that they did this and programmed neat stuff to make each origin feel special to the plotline.

[The Angry One]

Yes I worded that rather poorly, didn't feel like changing it so I added the last bit but it still may have come across confusingly.

[vocalemuse]

I really hope that in the sequel (if there is one, which there better be!) we don't play the 'old god' child. That would just be stupid to me. Not to mention the fact I'd rather continue with the characters I have now, As for the people who moan and say, "But my character is dead at the end so I'll have to start over, wah!" Then make another one that doesn't die at the end now, problem solved! Honestly how many people are just going to do one playthrough?

Also I don't think the game is geared toward a male lead, that's just bullocks.

Modifié par vocalemuse, 09 décembre 2009 - 02:32 .

[EJ42]

The Angry One wrote...

EJ42 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

How does that in any way prove me wrong?
It's my whole point, Alistair is female only, and in my opinion is written better, therefore you cannot claim that the game was written primarily with male PCs in mind or that Morrigan's romance is so overridingly good and deep (hint: it's not),

Work on your reading comprehension a bit.

I thought I was quite clear when I stated how that argument is a fallacy.

The female-player romances were most likely written better because female players would care more about it.

They don't write "chick flicks" for guys.

My comprehension is fine. Perhaps my mind didn't want to consider that you were saying something so stupid.
Are you seriously suggesting that Alistair's romance is written better than Morrigan's because females must care about it more therefore it doesn't matter? What? So males won't care about Morrigan even if she said "blibble blobble bed me tee hee"? 

Besides which, even if you were right, it'd still show BioWare cares to make the female side just as involved as the male so... what's your point?

I'd expect that sort of response from a certain type of woman...

Since you obviously have no sense of logic or reason, I'll simply give one last go at it here.

Yes.  You are somewhat correct, starting with the third sentence in your response.  I am suggesting that Alistair's romance is written better because female players care more about such content.  That means that the quality of the romance content truly does not imply which one the developers cared more about.  That it was done well only shows that they care about their female customers.

Also true is that most of the male target audience would probably only care whether or not they could get Morrigan to take her top off.  You mean she actually TALKS?!

My point is that Bioware has done a pretty good job at covering the content that matters most to the various members of their target audience.  They have female-centric content for their female players, and male-centric content for their male players.  How well any of the content is done has no bearing on the direction the writers like to think the story played out.

Modifié par EJ42, 09 décembre 2009 - 02:44 .

[Nobody Important]

The only thing I am convinced is canon if anything will be is the dark promise.

[EJ42]

Nobody Important wrote...

The only thing I am convinced is canon if anything will be is the dark promise.

I really do hope they don't make any of it "canon" as others have mentioned.

I want to be able to continue with the plot choices that I made.  (Except for the version where I'm dead, that is.)

Here is how I see it:

1) If you sacrificed yourself, then perhaps you start off the sequel as Morrigan, Leliana, Alistair, or some unmentioned relative of yours.
2) If you bedded Morrigan, then perhaps you head off to find her and/or the "god" child.
3) If you sent Morrigan away, then perhaps she found another way to create some sort of child-abomination, assuming its role is pivotal to the major plot arch.
etc.

I'm hoping to be able to ultimately redeem Morrigan, and purge the corruption imposed upon her by Flemeth.  When she asked if I thought we were to "get married, have children, and paint the house while she bakes the bread," I liked her response to my answer.  I simply said, "I don't know.  What do you want?"  That gave her pause.

She did seem to regret leaving me.  I'm still holding out hope that the ring will guide me to her or her back to me.

What if the child becomes more than she can handle, and she sees the error in her ways?  What if the child turns out to be something much more beautiful than she expected?  What if the child asks who her daddy is?

There are so many reasons for a male PC to be reunited with Morrigan.

[fanman72]

vocalemuse wrote...

I really hope that in the sequel (if there is one, which there better be!) we don't play the 'old god' child. That would just be stupid to me. Not to mention the fact I'd rather continue with the characters I have now, As for the people who moan and say, "But my character is dead at the end so I'll have to start over, wah!" Then make another one that doesn't die at the end now, problem solved! Honestly how many people are just going to do one playthrough?

Also I don't think the game is geared toward a male lead, that's just bullocks.

I'm in the same camp in that I'd rather continue my character from DA1 than start a brand new one altogether.  I really don't want to be the godchild myself in DA2.  That just strikes me too much as a rehash of Baldur's Gate or even the first KOTOR in the sense that you don't know who you really are until later in the game.  Very overdone by now. 

I'd rather it be a direct continuation for DA1.  As for your companions, it's not as important to me if they still are your companions (Zevran agreed to continue accompanying me in my search for Morrigan....I'm sure Dog hasn't planned anything either), but I'd still like to see at least a cameo appearance from them.

[scrimex]

CronoDragoon your name isn't any big secret, you see yourself as the good guy like the allied attack on the ****s in southern France.A very admirable thing to want to be associated with but attacking someone who makes a comment and accussing them of making the internet a cesspool is dopey.