528 réponses à ce sujet

[Belisarius09]

@OP, I sincerely hope you never hold public office since you have no regard for free will and don't seem to understand why violating it would be a bad thing.

[akenn312]

LaZy i IS wrote...

akenn312 wrote...

But now they are all destroyed and all that work that Shepard did to get EDI to reporgram & to have human feelings is gone. The Geth's history and all the work Legion did to get them to ally with humans is gone. Also Shepard was the only one with the persuasive ability to talk them down from destorying each other again anyway even after they knew the problem, who knows how many cycles it would take to get to someone like Shepard witht he charisma and bravery to be able to accomplish this feat again if another sythetic problem occurs.

I meant, the Geth and EDI had shown that synthetics aren't always going to be hostile towards organics, so in the future, organics are going to be less likely to be hostile towards synthetics. Hence, less chance of organic/synthetic conflict.

Remeber when Sheppard showed the Quarians they were the cause of the Geth vs Quarian conflct? What did they try to do to each other again without Shepard talking them down? They still tried to kill each other. And with EDI destroyed and the Geth gone new V.I.s and A.I's must be built with no knowledge on thier end how to work with humans. Without the Legion programming or EDI's insite. It all starts again. But this time no Reaper threat to get everyone to work together.

Modifié par akenn312, 09 mai 2012 - 07:47 .

[Belisarius09]

akenn312 wrote...

LaZy i IS wrote...

akenn312 wrote...

But now they are all destroyed and all that work that Shepard did to get EDI to reporgram & to have human feelings is gone. The Geth's history and all the work Legion did to get them to ally with humans is gone. Also Shepard was the only one with the persuasive ability to talk them down from destorying each other again anyway even after they knew the problem, who knows how many cycles it would take to get to someone like Shepard witht he charisma and bravery to be able to accomplish this feat again if another sythetic problem occurs.

I meant, the Geth and EDI had shown that synthetics aren't always going to be hostile towards organics, so in the future, organics are going to be less likely to be hostile towards synthetics. Hence, less chance of organic/synthetic conflict.

Remeber when Sheppard showed the Quarians they were the cuase of the Geth vs Quarian conflct? What did they try to do to each other again without Shepard talking them down? They still tried to kill each other. And with EDI destroyed and the Geth gone new V.I.s and A.I's must be built with no knowledge on thier end how to work with humans. Without the Legion programming or EDI's insite. It all starts again. But this time no Reaper threat to get everyone to work together.

Thats a possibility.  Its a risk we just have to accept.  There's no guaruntee it will happen that way.  Starshild say so but what proof do we have other than that? None.  I'll take my chances, and give future generations the chance to make those decisions for themselves, before I play god and violate the free will of every being in the Galaxy.

[Reorte]

Belisarius09 wrote...

@OP, I sincerely hope you never hold public office since you have no regard for free will and don't seem to understand why violating it would be a bad thing.

Sounds like most politicians.

[Someone With Mass]

The whole reason for any of the endings is just dumb, anyway. We can might as well start killing off advanced organic races just because they might start devastating wars with other organics in the future. To base all these acts of mass genocide on the assumption that all synthetic life might try to kill off the organic is just preposterous. Not to mention racist.

Hell, Sovereign is the reason why the geth started attacking organics to begin with. He was very counterproductive.

P.S. Even if all organic life happens to be exterminated, they can still come back through evolution the same way they started to exist.

The synthetics can't possibly cover every square inch of every planet in the galaxy. That'd be a huge waste of time and resources.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 09 mai 2012 - 07:51 .

[shodiswe]

You say it's a good thing, that remains to be proven, secondly, since it's not the natural evolution of humanity and all the other species I say it's a bad thing, if humanity is to evolve to the next step on the evolutionary ladder it has to come from humanity itself.
If it's done before the need or desire for it is realized then it will hamper natural progress, just like the reapers were limiting natural evolution of technology by giving everyone basic Mass effect technology and relays that made it pointless to improve the normal FTL drives, simply because the relays were so efficient.

Huge technological improvements that arn't understood and freely given hampers creativity and innovation since the first atempts at improvements or innovation can't hold a candle to the supperior incomprehensible technology that's freely given.

It's possible that that stagnation would get broken eventualy but noone would be pushing for it due to the negleable gains compared to the resources needed to accomplish progression. It's just bad bussiness to spend money and resources on something that wont give enough, there for development is hampered.

Mordin explains this, Legion explains this... It's given to you in ME2 to tell you how neffarious and evil the Reapers are and how deceptive their gifts truly are.

It's even possible that the reapers created the crucible as a fail safe in the event that a civilization would actualy threaten reaper domination. That way they could trick them into falling for another development trap.

For as long as a galaxy it trapped in cycles of destruction or a tecnological stagnation it represents no danger for more evolved civilizations...

We got no reason to belive there are more advanced civilizations out there from the lore of the Mass effect universe but it's possible there are civilizations or at least one that spanns several galaxies but due to the vastness of the universe they can't collonize or controll all of it so they send out the reapers and keep citadels with catalyst traps to keep the evolving sentients at bay.

And all this BS about synthetics destroying all organics is just a smokescreen to avoid giving away the truth, it's possible that the catalysts and reapers dont even know the truth themselves, they are just massive husks guarding fringe space and stopping advanced civilizations from emerging.

Maybe that star that Halestrom is circling is gettign affected by tech from that super advanced civilization that's attempting to gain a foot hold. maybe by constructing a superrelay or something for more efficient access to our galaxy.

That might be the next big threat to the galaxy, a force even greater than a bunch of zombieAI ships and zombie thralls.

Just speculatign but garrus said we will probably get hit by sometihng even worse than the reapers if we manage to defeat the reapers... it's just the order of things.

It's very likely that the reapers arn't just sleepign in dark space, they might be partolling hundreds of galaxies or a lot more than that.. Galaxies that their creators would like to claim eventualy, they just need to make sure noone else is there to oppose them when the time commes.

This is a farfectched idea but it's as good as any and with or without it freely given technology advancements that noone understands that is likely to prevent future tech must be a technology trap... It's just the next step in controlling a galaxy that's broken free of the "cycle", until "proper" containment measure can be taken.

I really don't trust that the reapers would actualy be doing something out of the goodness of their hearts, obviously they arn't even evolving themselves, they are just a stuck puppet following a program that repeats itself until the progam states a new approach is needed. The reapers have also ignored the crucible planns and repeated atempts at buildign the crucible but thusands of races... Surely their inoctrinated slaves would have informed them about the planns... apparently the crucible isn't a threat, it's just part of their overall control safeguards.
Thousands of civilizations, thousands of illusive men, and still the reapers arn't concerned about the crucible planns that are being passed on over and over again. Even Javic who had nothing to do with it said they had heard rumors about it, sounds like more people than Javic knew about it, and he wasn't involved with the crucible work.

Synthesis = technology trap 2.0

[akenn312]

That's why most people pick Red, but I still say it sucks as an ending and Bioware considers it the worst possible ending. It's a small victory, but still In my opinion all ending choices are still bad.

[LaZy i IS]

akenn312 wrote...

LaZy i IS wrote...

akenn312 wrote...

But now they are all destroyed and all that work that Shepard did to get EDI to reporgram & to have human feelings is gone. The Geth's history and all the work Legion did to get them to ally with humans is gone. Also Shepard was the only one with the persuasive ability to talk them down from destorying each other again anyway even after they knew the problem, who knows how many cycles it would take to get to someone like Shepard witht he charisma and bravery to be able to accomplish this feat again if another sythetic problem occurs.

I meant, the Geth and EDI had shown that synthetics aren't always going to be hostile towards organics, so in the future, organics are going to be less likely to be hostile towards synthetics. Hence, less chance of organic/synthetic conflict.

Remeber when Sheppard showed the Quarians they were the cuase of the Geth vs Quarian conflct? What did they try to do to each other again without Shepard talking them down? They still tried to kill each other. And with EDI destroyed and the Geth gone new V.I.s and A.I's must be built with no knowledge on thier end how to work with humans. Without the Legion programming or EDI's insite. It all starts again. But this time no Reaper threat to get everyone to work together.

Geth were only hostile when the quarians attacked them, and when the Reapers made them, they didn't want any wars. Not all synthetics are aggressive. Now that organics know that after the battle for rannoch, less chance of fights...

[PsyrenY]

Reorte wrote...

What will happen on uncontacted and undeveloped worlds with no intelligent life? If synthesis makes DNA (or whatever it now is) impossible then those worlds won't evolve any further which would put them in great danger of having most of their life wiped out over a long enough timescale when it fails to adapt to cycles of ice ages or continents shifting around.

Why are you assuming they won't know how to self-modify? It's not like EDI had to read instructions, or get tutored by another AI on how to evolve. She just... knew.

Allow me to quote:
Shepard: "Still getting used to the new body?"
EDI: "No. I only need one occurrence to adapt to a new concept."

Reorte wrote...
Or perhaps they're not affected at all if they're a long way off the relay network (that's how the Space Magic signal seems to propagate after all), in which case if the "synthetics will destroy organics" argument is true then presumably so is "synthesised beings will destroy organics."

Even assuming the whole galaxy wasn't hit, the difference is that synthesized life still incorporates organics. So even if the synthesized later... go on a rampage or something and wipe out pure organics, their own continued existence would still be a continuation of organic life.

But I do personally think the whole milky way was hit. Which is not to say that organics couldn't arise in another galaxy (Andromeda?) but still.

Reorte wrote...
...
That's an acceptable solution to it because it's only purpose was to stop organics from being destroyed by synthetics, not anything else.

Correct, that was indeed it's purpose. And like any machine, it has pretty absolute tunnel vision to that purpose. So it couldn't care less about organic-organic conflict, except insofar as it results in those organics building synthetics to gain an edge.

darthnick427 wrote...

Because it's a betrayal of everything you're fighting against. You think your squadmates are going to understand why you chose synthesis? Hell no. Javik would try to kill you if he ever saw you again.

Why is Javik some sort of role model all of a sudden? Left up to him, he would have tossed Legion out of the airlock without a backward glance, junked the genophage cure while forcing Wrex in line with the Tuchanka bomb, and sided with the Quarians on Rannoch. Do you approve?

[a.m.p]

Ieldra2 wrote...

To those who say they dislike Synthesis because it makes no sense, a challenge:

Yes, "a new DNA" and "final evolution of life", that's abysmally retarded. So....make it make sense. Instead of bashing the literal meaning which can never be reality because it makes no sense, throw the literal meaning out of the window and think about how it could make sense!

That is not my job. That's the writers' job and I hope that is what they are currently doing. I meanwhile prefer to spend my free time justifying my chosen ending.

I've read your threads. You put a lot of effort into explaining why your interpretation of synthesis is desirable for you. Thing is, what you should really be asking is whether any interpretation of synthesis would be desirable for all these people:

(and before anyone points out Saren or TIM in that picture, do remember that they shot themselves, aslo that's the best collage i could find on short notice)

Because this isn't just your galaxy. It's theirs. And everyone else's who lives in it.
So I ask you. Provided synthesis doesn't mindrape them into being happy about it by default, what would their reaction be to it? I for one can not see the galaxy accepting synthesis without much bloodshed, collapse of civilization and all that nightmare stuff that comes with huge global changes to society. And that is atop the crisis of the relay destruction. Moral implications aside, from a simply practical point of view.

See, the fact that you have come up with a theory (by throwing the literal meaning out of the window) that justifies the catalyst's ridiculous claims does not make you or him right. Your interpretation of synthesis may solve the problem that may or may not occur in the distant future. You have no proof it will, I have no proof it won't.

Nothing personal, but if you were to force your synthesis on me based on that kind of justifications I would probably be very unhappy with you. So would be a lot of other people (see paragraprh above about bloodshed and other nightmare stuff). And this is something you are not considering when writing your interpretations.

Modifié par a.m.p, 09 mai 2012 - 08:05 .

[Ryoten]

I think we can all figure out what is wrong with synthesis just by reading the OP's statements.  They speak for themselves.


The fact that the OP tries to compare this to a decision he would make in real life makes it almost racist.  This is where BioWares folly is.  BioWare implemented a decision that appeals to racist communities.  Most of us can see that it is wrong.  BioWare cannot.  I'll leave you all to think about that for a while.

[antares_sublight]

If the Catalyst is so concerned with saving organic life in general, synthesis not only removes all pure organic life from the galaxy, but it also introduces a convenient kill-switch for all life forms - see the Destroy option. The knowledge for that is still around since you didn't destroy the reapers.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 

Ieldra2 wrote...

That Saren wanted it, that the Catalyst may have wanted it, that's completely irrelevant, because an idea is good or bad independently from those who support it.

xD

People who say "but Saren/Starchild want it" remind me of Urdnot Wreav meeting Wrex on Tuchanka. "WHO BROUGHT THE SALARIAN?THEY'RE THE ENEMY! WE DON'T WORK WITH THEM!!!"

And for that matter, no, Saren said no such thing either. Even if he did though, well, I think I'd rather follow his lead than one of Anderson or TIM.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 09 mai 2012 - 08:00 .

[CmnDwnWrkn]

I really don't think Synthesis was intended to be taken so literally. I look at it more as an abstract concept rather than an exact set of physical/biological changes.

[Ieldra]

I have no idea why no one appears to take the true nature of the Reapers into account. As Legion says, they are "billions of organic minds, uploaded and conjoined within an immortal machine body". And they're mind-controlled by the Catalyst since that's the only way to explain why they're doing what they do, as I have explained here. So....in Synthesis the Reapers are not hostile anymore, neither are they enslaved. And all the knowledge of the species they were made from is preserved. It may even be possible to reincarnate them. Combine that with intelligent life having taken a step forward on some scale of artificial evolution, transcending some of their limitations and gaining the tools towards a greater understanding, and judging from the results I can't see any real downside.

And all that *is* implied in the description and the visuals, though the description is indeed abysmally retarded and definitely needs a better explanation.

[akenn312]

LaZy i IS wrote...

akenn312 wrote...

LaZy i IS wrote...

akenn312 wrote...

But now they are all destroyed and all that work that Shepard did to get EDI to reporgram & to have human feelings is gone. The Geth's history and all the work Legion did to get them to ally with humans is gone. Also Shepard was the only one with the persuasive ability to talk them down from destorying each other again anyway even after they knew the problem, who knows how many cycles it would take to get to someone like Shepard witht he charisma and bravery to be able to accomplish this feat again if another sythetic problem occurs.

I meant, the Geth and EDI had shown that synthetics aren't always going to be hostile towards organics, so in the future, organics are going to be less likely to be hostile towards synthetics. Hence, less chance of organic/synthetic conflict.

Remeber when Sheppard showed the Quarians they were the cuase of the Geth vs Quarian conflct? What did they try to do to each other again without Shepard talking them down? They still tried to kill each other. And with EDI destroyed and the Geth gone new V.I.s and A.I's must be built with no knowledge on thier end how to work with humans. Without the Legion programming or EDI's insite. It all starts again. But this time no Reaper threat to get everyone to work together.

Geth were only hostile when the quarians attacked them, and when the Reapers made them, they didn't want any wars. Not all synthetics are aggressive. Now that organics know that after the battle for rannoch, less chance of fights...

That is a general assumption, EDI was aggressive at first until Shepard & Jokers influence convinced her to be otherwise. We only know the quarian story we don't know the stories of other machines in past cycles. Javik I think tells Shepard that they had problems with A.I's too. It dosn't matter who starts it the real issue is Bioware still wants you to think the A.I. problem will begin again to make Red the least perferred choice. But they underestmated the fans and players and how they wrote the story and that choice now is the most poular.

Really do you think Shepard would sit there and really say...."Screw the Geth and screw EDI." all of a sudden after doing everything to save them from destruction and helping them to become sythetic A.I. lifeforms?

Synergy is considered the best, Destroy the worst, Control the middle ground.

I like Red but Red still has suckage to it.

Modifié par akenn312, 09 mai 2012 - 08:10 .

[antares_sublight]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I have no idea why no one appears to take the true nature of the Reapers into account. As Legion says, they are "billions of organic minds, uploaded and conjoined within an immortal machine body". And they're mind-controlled by the Catalyst since that's the only way to explain why they're doing what they do, as I have explained here. So....in Synthesis the Reapers are not hostile anymore, neither are they enslaved. And all the knowledge of the species they were made from is preserved. It may even be possible to reincarnate them. Combine that with intelligent life having taken a step forward on some scale of artificial evolution, transcending some of their limitations and gaining the tools towards a greater understanding, and judging from the results I can't see any real downside.

And all that *is* implied in the description and the visuals, though the description is indeed abysmally retarded and definitely needs a better explanation.

What results? 5 seconds of video that tells you nothing? That's all quite a leap of faith and speculation. There is nothing implying the reapers are our buddies now, or what happens to them. There are  huge questions with synthesis and tremendous possible downsides. Shepard knows nothing about it or the ramifications before blindly following the Catalyst's leanings and naively/arrogantly leaping into the green.

Modifié par antares_sublight, 09 mai 2012 - 08:09 .

[antares_sublight]

HYR 2.0 wrote...
And for that matter, no, Saren said no such thing either. Even if he did though, well, I think I'd rather follow his lead than one of Anderson or TIM.

“The relationship is symbiotic. Organic and machine intertwined, a
union of flesh and steel. The strengths of both, the weaknesses of
neither! I am a vision of the future, Shepard - the evolution of all
organic life! This is our destiny. Join Sovereign and experience a true
rebirth.”

Go for it.

[Reorte]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Reorte wrote...

What will happen on uncontacted and undeveloped worlds with no intelligent life? If synthesis makes DNA (or whatever it now is) impossible then those worlds won't evolve any further which would put them in great danger of having most of their life wiped out over a long enough timescale when it fails to adapt to cycles of ice ages or continents shifting around.

Why are you assuming they won't know how to self-modify? It's not like EDI had to read instructions, or get tutored by another AI on how to evolve. She just... knew.

Allow me to quote:
Shepard: "Still getting used to the new body?"
EDI: "No. I only need one occurrence to adapt to a new concept."

EDI was an intelligent machine fully aware of her own functionality (and as far as we know she never changed any essential hardware anyway). She almost certainly did have to get tutored by Cerberus, even if tutoring means loading in a load of databases containing whatever information they decided they wanted her to know. That's massively different from having every ape, mouse, fish, amoeba, bacterium and so on suddenly being synthesised. OK, perhaps they can randomly change themselves to a certain degree. Well, that's Starbrat's ultimate endpoint of evolution or whatever it said out of the window.

[antares_sublight]

Optimystic_X wrote...
Allow me to quote:
Shepard: "Still getting used to the new body?"
EDI: "No. I only need one occurrence to adapt to a new concept."

I never realized how dumb that is. Any AI that learned based on only one occurrence would be a total failure.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

antares_sublight wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...
And for that matter, no, Saren said no such thing either. Even if he did though, well, I think I'd rather follow his lead than one of Anderson or TIM.

“The relationship is symbiotic. Organic and machine intertwined, a
union of flesh and steel. The strengths of both, the weaknesses of
neither! I am a vision of the future, Shepard - the evolution of all
organic life! This is our destiny. Join Sovereign and experience a true
rebirth.”

Go for it.

I still think that all he meant is that the organics help the machines (Reapers) and the machines help the organics by sparing them from extinction. Finito.

Saren says that Sovereign said he "needed him" and we saw why. The Reapers couldn't activate the Citadel through the keepers any longer, so it needed Saren to do the work. So Saren thought that he was helping the Reapers in a way that only an organic could, basically making up for their weakness in not being able to do it themselves, and he'd reap the benefits by being saved from extinction that they would bring about by exploiting our weaknesses.

So no, I don't see a reference to synthesis. Just cooperative-symbiosis, which is a different thing entirely.

[antares_sublight]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

antares_sublight wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...
And for that matter, no, Saren said no such thing either. Even if he did though, well, I think I'd rather follow his lead than one of Anderson or TIM.

“The relationship is symbiotic. Organic and machine intertwined, a
union of flesh and steel. The strengths of both, the weaknesses of
neither! I am a vision of the future, Shepard - the evolution of all
organic life! This is our destiny. Join Sovereign and experience a true
rebirth.”

Go for it.

I still think that all he meant is that the organics help the machines (Reapers) and the machines help the organics by sparing them from extinction. Finito.

Saren says that Sovereign said he "needed him" and we saw why. The Reapers couldn't activate the Citadel through the keepers any longer, so it needed Saren to do the work. So Saren thought that he was helping the Reapers in a way that only an organic could, basically making up for their weakness in not being able to do it themselves, and he'd reap the benefits by being saved from extinction that they would bring about by exploiting our weaknesses.

So no, I don't see a reference to synthesis. Just cooperative-symbiosis, which is a different thing entirely.

How is "cooperation" between synthetics and organics the same thing, even figuratively, as "the evolution of all organic life", or "rebirth"?

Modifié par antares_sublight, 09 mai 2012 - 08:21 .

[MegaSovereign]

Eain wrote...

Beyond the moral problems, how does it work? We have a universe with an established way of doing things. Most forms of magic have some sort of pseudoscience to explain them. You've got your eezo, your mass effect (they named the series after it) your thanix cannons and so forth. We understand how all these things work.

How does synthesis work, and why? It feels like something taken from another setting. Why does Joker have green glowing circuitry? What exactly happened? How do you merge synthetic and organic life into a new DNA? Synthetic life is just steel and rubber and fibre optics and coolant. Just because Shepard has some cybernatics grafted into her body doesn't mean that some magical beam can spontaneously spawn even better cybernetics in the bodies of other people. Also did the Geth get organic parts? Are their flashlight heads now fleshlight heads? (ololololo that's horrible).

Seriously, how does it work? Nobody knows. Does it only affect people who've been hit by the green wave? If yes, then are there still regular organics and synthetics out there or did the wave hit everything? If there are, then doesn't the Reaper cycle still have a purpose? Also did we become allies to the Reapers, like their people? They just fly off in the synthesis ending going "oh would you look at that they've suddenly become the same as us, well that's mighty convenient."

Nobody understands anything about synthesis, because it makes no sense.

I agree with this post.

There is absolutely no context to synthesis. The synthesis ending of ME3 basically turns the series from a sci-fi epic into a fairytale.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

antares_sublight wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

antares_sublight wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...
And for that matter, no, Saren said no such thing either. Even if he did though, well, I think I'd rather follow his lead than one of Anderson or TIM.

“The relationship is symbiotic. Organic and machine intertwined, a
union of flesh and steel. The strengths of both, the weaknesses of
neither! I am a vision of the future, Shepard - the evolution of all
organic life! This is our destiny. Join Sovereign and experience a true
rebirth.”

Go for it.

I still think that all he meant is that the organics help the machines (Reapers) and the machines help the organics by sparing them from extinction. Finito.

Saren says that Sovereign said he "needed him" and we saw why. The Reapers couldn't activate the Citadel through the keepers any longer, so it needed Saren to do the work. So Saren thought that he was helping the Reapers in a way that only an organic could, basically making up for their weakness in not being able to do it themselves, and he'd reap the benefits by being saved from extinction that they would bring about by exploiting our weaknesses.

So no, I don't see a reference to synthesis. Just cooperative-symbiosis, which is a different thing entirely.

How is "cooperation" between synthetics and organics the same thing, even figuratively, as "the evolution of all organic life", or "rebirth"?

Because when Saren first involved himself with the Reapers (pre-ME1 novel) he tried to harness their technology/improvements and reap benefits for his people. He, in the process, got indocintrated.