528 réponses à ce sujet

[Belisarius09]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

antares_sublight wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

antares_sublight wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...
And for that matter, no, Saren said no such thing either. Even if he did though, well, I think I'd rather follow his lead than one of Anderson or TIM.

“The relationship is symbiotic. Organic and machine intertwined, a
union of flesh and steel. The strengths of both, the weaknesses of
neither! I am a vision of the future, Shepard - the evolution of all
organic life! This is our destiny. Join Sovereign and experience a true
rebirth.”

Go for it.

I still think that all he meant is that the organics help the machines (Reapers) and the machines help the organics by sparing them from extinction. Finito.

Saren says that Sovereign said he "needed him" and we saw why. The Reapers couldn't activate the Citadel through the keepers any longer, so it needed Saren to do the work. So Saren thought that he was helping the Reapers in a way that only an organic could, basically making up for their weakness in not being able to do it themselves, and he'd reap the benefits by being saved from extinction that they would bring about by exploiting our weaknesses.

So no, I don't see a reference to synthesis. Just cooperative-symbiosis, which is a different thing entirely.

How is "cooperation" between synthetics and organics the same thing, even figuratively, as "the evolution of all organic life", or "rebirth"?

Because when Saren first involved himself with the Reapers (pre-ME1 novel) he tried to harness their technology/improvements and reap benefits for his people. He, in the process, got indocintrated.

go jump in your green beam of light

[fallingseraph]

Man and Machine combine to be some kind of new Ascended creature that supersedes all of the next generations of life as united race, networked and biotic.

[antares_sublight]

fallingseraph wrote...

Man and Machine combine to be some kind of new Ascended creature that supersedes all of the next generations of life as united race, networked and biotic.

Not just "man and machine" - ALL organic life, including plants and single-celled organisms.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Belisarius09 wrote...

go jump in your green beam of light

Comments like these don't exactly dispell my claim that synthesis-haters are narrow-minded fools. I mean, is that the best you can do?

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 09 mai 2012 - 09:01 .

[akenn312]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

antares_sublight wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

antares_sublight wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...
And for that matter, no, Saren said no such thing either. Even if he did though, well, I think I'd rather follow his lead than one of Anderson or TIM.

“The relationship is symbiotic. Organic and machine intertwined, a
union of flesh and steel. The strengths of both, the weaknesses of
neither! I am a vision of the future, Shepard - the evolution of all
organic life! This is our destiny. Join Sovereign and experience a true
rebirth.”

Go for it.

I still think that all he meant is that the organics help the machines (Reapers) and the machines help the organics by sparing them from extinction. Finito.

Saren says that Sovereign said he "needed him" and we saw why. The Reapers couldn't activate the Citadel through the keepers any longer, so it needed Saren to do the work. So Saren thought that he was helping the Reapers in a way that only an organic could, basically making up for their weakness in not being able to do it themselves, and he'd reap the benefits by being saved from extinction that they would bring about by exploiting our weaknesses.

So no, I don't see a reference to synthesis. Just cooperative-symbiosis, which is a different thing entirely.

How is "cooperation" between synthetics and organics the same thing, even figuratively, as "the evolution of all organic life", or "rebirth"?

Because when Saren first involved himself with the Reapers (pre-ME1 novel) he tried to harness their technology/improvements and reap benefits for his people. He, in the process, got indocintrated.

So your saying because Saren tried to harness the Reaper technology thats why he was indoctrinated and his version of synthesis is evil and different. So why doesn't every-time Shepard salvages reaper tech, handle Reaper code fragments to finish a quest or use a Reaper heavy weapon is Shepard indoctrinated or considered evil. Everything in Mass Effect is based on mainly Reaper tech. So why would Saren using their technology for advancement be worse than anyone else using a Mass Relay or handling actual Reaper code fragments?

Also let me make a statement about the Reapers and the new evolution they have created with Synthesis

The Reapers for years have been stopping the natural evolution of organics and synthetics with their cycle. So with synthesis you basically let the Star child again change the natural evolution that was originally meant for organic and synthetic life. It's basically forcing organics and synthetics to merge to what he wants rather than stopping the interference and letting them evolve naturally like they were meant to. The organics and synthetics were evolving already the Reapers are again causing organics to change by their direction and control.

sound familiar?



It's basically like a scientist merging cats and dogs so they won't fight anymore. Now would you think that was crazy if someone brought that theory to you? Or do you go along with Dr. Moreau?

Modifié par akenn312, 09 mai 2012 - 09:06 .

[Legbiter]

Because it's self-indulgent pap.

[antares_sublight]

HYR 2.0 wrote...
synthesis-haters are narrow-minded fools.

I see what you did there, excellent illustration of irony. People who dislike the synthesis ending have just as many reasons in their own minds as you feel you have in yours. Framing it the way you do, as in the above quote and in other places where you (insecurely) call those of the other cult names and belittle them is pretty hypocritical.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

akenn312 wrote...

So your saying because Saren tried to harness the Reaper technology thats why he was indoctrinated and his version of synthesis is evil and different. 

I'm not saying that at all.

I'm saying whatever good he was planning to reap from Reaper technology went down the drain once he got indoctrinated and the Reapers started controlling him for their own uses.

At that point, I think they deceived Saren by telling him that they'd help provide the benefits he was hoping for if he'd join them, though for my part that's just a guess.

[Draining Dragon]

A. It's space magic.
B. It's definitely not what I would want if I were given the choice.

[Raiil]

@Ieldra2 Ah, I see where you're coming from now. My take on Synthesis is very different, particularly on the being able to reverse it idea. If that were possible, or rather if that's how I took it, I might be more amenable to Synthesis. My interpretation is a lot different, though, involving entirely new sequences and builds not currently known, thus making any sort of reversal a crapshoot.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

BTW, I went back to re-watch Saren's suicide. Saren's reasons for joining the Reapers are about survival above all else, he simply thinks the Reapers can not be beaten and the only way to avoid death is surrender.

He says nothing about being spared or potentially making peace with the Reapers if they synthesize with machines or anything like that, which one would expect if he was touting the green path. He just says "you saw the visions, the Protheans failed, we can't stop them." Compare that to TIM who goes down on the premise of believing he can control them and insisting he has a way.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 09 mai 2012 - 09:40 .

[Malanek]

1) It isn't explained
2) It is probably unexplainable
3) It is immoral
4) It is presented, at least by the catalyst, as being the most moral, everyone is happy ending.
5) It is the "reward" for getting high ems and yet seems the least attractive.
6) It for ever alters the world in such a way that any future games set in it will be difficult to relate to

[dreman9999]

EvilMind wrote...



"Its genetical rape" "Its forced" are not welcomed, 

You do know that's exactly what the reaper were trying to doin the first place.

[Johcande XX]

I was thinking about this ending the other day and realized something; it's the only ending that even if everything the Kid tells you is true, still doesn't solve the conflict that the whole series is based upon.

So you jump into a green beam, so.
Everyone is now partially synthetic, so.
All synthetics are now partially organic, so.

Reapers are still outside, reaping. What tells them to stop? And I know that people are now 'evolved', but Jim over here just saw his alliance buddy get lazered; do you honestly think that just because everything's the same that he won't want to kill the Reapers anyway?

After the blast, if there's still free will, then most of the galaxy is still going to be after the Reapers just out of vengeance sake. As mostly synthetic, the Reapers will have to defend themselves, like the Geth did. This ending doesn't solve anything, it's a big green waste of time.

[PsyrenY]

a.m.p wrote...

Nothing personal, but if you were to force your synthesis on me based on that kind of justifications I would probably be very unhappy with you. So would be a lot of other people (see paragraprh above about bloodshed and other nightmare stuff). And this is something you are not considering when writing your interpretations.

You're making a critical mistake here; the attitude you describe, whereby people would become so traumatized by the change, is how a purely organic mind might react. Synthetics do not react the same way organics do to mass change.

On mass-rewriting synthetics, Legion says this:
"The minds of both forms of life can be shaped. Organics require time and effort. With synthetics, replacing a data file is the only requirement."

In short, you are committing the fallacy Legion mentions here: "No two species are identical. All must be judged on their own merits. Treating every species like one's own is racist. Even benign anthropomorphism." You are treating synthesized races as though they are purely organic, thus you are falling into the same trap as someone who treats synthetics that way.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 09 mai 2012 - 09:57 .

[PsyrenY]

Reorte wrote...

EDI was an intelligent machine fully aware of her own functionality (and as far as we know she never changed any essential hardware anyway). She almost certainly did have to get tutored by Cerberus, even if tutoring means loading in a load of databases containing whatever information they decided they wanted her to know. That's massively different from having every ape, mouse, fish, amoeba, bacterium and so on suddenly being synthesised. OK, perhaps they can randomly change themselves to a certain degree. Well, that's Starbrat's ultimate endpoint of evolution or whatever it said out of the window.

But you have those databases - memories - already. No one has to teach you your experiences all over again. The only advantage the AI possesses is the adaptibility/resistance to trauma. Which a synthesized race would now presumably share.

antares_sublight wrote...
I never realized how dumb that is. Any AI that learned based on only one occurrence would be a total failure.

Any that didn't would be a total failure, actually.

[antares_sublight]

Optimystic_X wrote...

a.m.p wrote...

Nothing personal, but if you were to force your synthesis on me based on that kind of justifications I would probably be very unhappy with you. So would be a lot of other people (see paragraprh above about bloodshed and other nightmare stuff). And this is something you are not considering when writing your interpretations.

You're making a critical mistake here; the attitude you describe, whereby people would become so traumatized by the change, is how a purely organic mind would react. Synthetics do not react the same way organics do to mass change.

On mass-rewriting synthetics, Legion says this:
"The minds of both forms of life can be shaped. Organics require time and effort. With synthetics, replacing a data file is the only requirement."

In short, you are committing the fallacy Legion mentions here: "No two species are identical. All must be judged on their own merits. Treating every species like one's own is racist. Even benign anthropomorphism." You are treating synthesized races as though they are purely organic, thus you are falling into the same trap as someone who treats synthetics that way.

So you've completely altered not only the genetic makeup but also the core personality of every living organism in the galaxy. Based on a 3 minute pleasant but brief conversation with the entity you've found out is controlling the threat you've been putting the galaxy's energy into defeating.

[antares_sublight]

Optimystic_X wrote...

antares_sublight wrote...
I never realized how dumb that is. Any AI that learned based on only one occurrence would be a total failure.

Any that didn't would be a total failure, actually.

Easily mislead. Data is noisy, context is varied, saying it had learned based on one instance would be a disaster of an AI.

[PsyrenY]

antares_sublight wrote...

So you've completely altered not only the genetic makeup but also the core personality of every living organism in the galaxy. Based on a 3 minute pleasant but brief conversation with the entity you've found out is controlling the threat you've been putting the galaxy's energy into defeating.

Joker and EDI were in love before Synthesis.
Joker and EDI were in love after Synthesis.

What part of their personalities did I alter?

[antares_sublight]

Optimystic_X wrote...

antares_sublight wrote...

So you've completely altered not only the genetic makeup but also the core personality of every living organism in the galaxy. Based on a 3 minute pleasant but brief conversation with the entity you've found out is controlling the threat you've been putting the galaxy's energy into defeating.

Joker and EDI were in love before Synthesis.
Joker and EDI were in love after Synthesis.

What part of their personalities did I alter?

I know you're smarter than that. You yourself just said:

You're making a critical mistake here; the attitude you describe,
whereby people would become so traumatized by the change, is how a
purely organic mind might react. Synthetics do not react the same way
organics do to mass change.

You're describing a core personality change.

[PsyrenY]

antares_sublight wrote...

You're describing a core personality change.

No, I'm describing resistance to trauma.
Geth would not riot in the streets or mass-suicide after being rewritten (we know this, because they didn't.) I would expect a synthesized race's reaction to be somewhere between that of an organic and that of a synthetic.

[The Angry One]

Optimystic_X wrote...

antares_sublight wrote...

So you've completely altered not only the genetic makeup but also the core personality of every living organism in the galaxy. Based on a 3 minute pleasant but brief conversation with the entity you've found out is controlling the threat you've been putting the galaxy's energy into defeating.

Joker and EDI were in love before Synthesis.
Joker and EDI were in love after Synthesis.

What part of their personalities did I alter?

Saren hated humans before indoctrination.
Saren hated humans after indoctrination.

Oh my gawd Saren was sane all along!

[KingZayd]

Optimystic_X wrote...

antares_sublight wrote...

You're describing a core personality change.

No, I'm describing resistance to trauma.
Geth would not riot in the streets or mass-suicide after being rewritten (we know this, because they didn't.) I would expect a synthesized race's reaction to be somewhere between that of an organic and that of a synthetic.

How is a different reaction not indicative of a  personality change?

[The Angry One]

KingZayd wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

antares_sublight wrote...

You're describing a core personality change.

No, I'm describing resistance to trauma.
Geth would not riot in the streets or mass-suicide after being rewritten (we know this, because they didn't.) I would expect a synthesized race's reaction to be somewhere between that of an organic and that of a synthetic.

How is a different reaction not indicative of a  personality change?

Wow. I had to reread that a few times. Optimyst, do you have any idea what you're saying?

[PsyrenY]

The Angry One wrote...

Saren hated humans before indoctrination.
Saren hated humans after indoctrination.

Oh my gawd Saren was sane all along!

Talking about Synthesis, not indoctrination. Do try to keep up.
But while we're on the subject, TIM's personality didn't change either - he was a humanophile until the very end, remember?

KingZayd wrote...

How is a different reaction not indicative of a  personality change?

Different from what? I'm explaining why there wouldn't be mass suicides and rioting in the streets. Do you have proof that would even happen?