528 réponses à ce sujet

[Bob the Elcor]

EvilMind wrote...

 I just dont get it, I think its great. Could someone tell me or give a link where it clearly explains why Synthesis is the worst thing ever?

The short versions like "Its genetical rape" "Its forced" are not welcomed, I heard most of those and i'm not fully convinced by them. It is forced, but its a good thing, noone is hurt, only made better. Its just killing me, I really want a good explanation why is it bad.

Its the next step in evolution, it has many benefits, its basically making every single organic better in some way. I'm not saying Synthesis makes everyone perfect and it may have its own flaws, but its presented as something that has no downsides - a race without flaws of organics and synthetics.

It is not evolution and would ask you to refrain from calling it so.

[PsyrenY]

antares_sublight wrote...

Easily mislead. Data is noisy, context is varied, saying it had learned based on one instance would be a disaster of an AI.

That's not a bad thing - as soon as it had any contradictory data it would adapt. For instance, EDI's primary priority used to be self-preservation, but upon having one contradictory occurrence of organic behavior explained to her (the concentration camp detainees that refused to betray one another) she self-modified to ensure that she would kill herself if she fell into Reaper hands. She reprioritized her very survival based on one data point.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 09 mai 2012 - 10:13 .

[antares_sublight]

Optimystic_X wrote...

antares_sublight wrote...

You're describing a core personality change.

No, I'm describing resistance to trauma.
Geth would not riot in the streets or mass-suicide after being rewritten (we know this, because they didn't.) I would expect a synthesized race's reaction to be somewhere between that of an organic and that of a synthetic.

That's a fundamental change in someone's personality. The way you react to your environment is a fundamental aspect of personality.

[antares_sublight]

Optimystic_X wrote...

antares_sublight wrote...

Easily mislead. Data is noisy, context is varied, saying it had learned based on one instance would be a disaster of an AI.

That's not a bad thing - as soon as it had any contradictory data it would adapt. For instance, EDI's primary priority used to be self-preservation, but upon having one contradictory occurrence of organic behavior explained to her (the concentration camp detainees that refused to betray one another) she self-modified to ensure that she would kill herself if she fell into Reaper hands. She reprioritized her very survival based on one data point.

Easily manipulated, cool.

[PsyrenY]

antares_sublight wrote...

That's a fundamental change in someone's personality. The way you react to your environment is a fundamental aspect of personality.

Please. Plants "react to their environment," do they have personalities too?

[antares_sublight]

Optimystic_X wrote...

antares_sublight wrote...

That's a fundamental change in someone's personality. The way you react to your environment is a fundamental aspect of personality.

Please. Plants "react to their environment," do they have personalities too?

Are we talking about plants deciding whether to riot in streets?

"Personality is the particular combination of emotional, attitudinal, and behavioral response patterns of an individual."

You just said synthesis changed that.

Plants don't start out with personalities. Those lifeforms that do, have those personalities fundamentally altered by synthesis. They're not the same people/beings they were before.

Modifié par antares_sublight, 09 mai 2012 - 10:24 .

[The Angry One]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Talking about Synthesis, not indoctrination. Do try to keep up.
But while we're on the subject, TIM's personality didn't change either - he was a humanophile until the very end, remember?

Indoctrination changes the very core of your being once it takes hold, making you do things you would never do, changing your personality without you even realising it.

My point is, you can't use similar traits as proof of anything.

Different from what? I'm explaining why there wouldn't be mass suicides and rioting in the streets. Do you have proof that would even happen?

Alright really? Do you honestly think that if synthesis happened right now, there wouldn't be mass panic in the streets?
Multiply that for every world out in the galaxy that doesn't even know what the hell's going on.

If you say their "synthetic side" will prevent this, THEN THEIR MINDS HAVE BEEN ALTERED.

[Javo2357]

Control Ending FTW

[Reorte]

The Angry One wrote...

Indoctrination changes the very core of your being once it takes hold, making you do things you would never do, changing your personality without you even realising it.

I'm not so sure about that. Benezia's description of it was that of very definitely realising it but being powerless to prevent you doing those things. Shiala also says that she thinks she's still indoctrinated so is obviously aware but the bonds with the other Feros colonists help her overcome it.

Modifié par Reorte, 09 mai 2012 - 10:29 .

[PsyrenY]

antares_sublight wrote...

Plants don't start out with personalities. Those lifeforms that do, have those personalities fundamentally altered by synthesis. They're not the same people/beings they were before.

I've long said that synthesis has to change your mental processes (a la transhumanism) to be the effective deterrent that the Catalyst believes it to be. If it is just cosmetic, then it's a waste of time.

A synthesized race, to be consistent with the catalyst's claims, would have to be more mentally agile, otherwise they will just end up creating AI again (to compensate for their own mental deficiencies) and restarting the cycle. A side-effect of this would be the ability to, like EDI, adapt to new occurrences at lightning speed.

And fast adaptation = minimal/no trauma/suicides.

The Angry One wrote...


Alright really? Do you honestly think that if synthesis happened right now, there wouldn't be mass panic in the streets?
Multiply that for every world out in the galaxy that doesn't even know what the hell's going on.

If you say their "synthetic side" will prevent this, THEN THEIR MINDS HAVE BEEN ALTERED.

Mind =/= Personality. EDI and Joker are still EDI and Joker, whatever mental capabilities they gained from the process. (Greater emotional range in EDI's case I would assume based on her affection, and greater heuristical capability in Joker's if Synthesis works as advertised.)

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 09 mai 2012 - 10:33 .

[The Angry One]

Optimystic_X wrote...


Mind =/= Personality. EDI and Joker are still EDI and Joker, whatever mental capabilities they gained from the process. (Greater emotional range in EDI's case I would assume, and greater heuristical capability in Joker's.)

You just don't know that.

[incinerator950]

Speculation abound.

[Taboo]

The Angry One wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...


Mind =/= Personality. EDI and Joker are still EDI and Joker, whatever mental capabilities they gained from the process. (Greater emotional range in EDI's case I would assume, and greater heuristical capability in Joker's.)

You just don't know that.

She's right. Her answers are as valid as yours. 

Your answers do not take precedence and neither do hers.

[PsyrenY]

The Angry One wrote...





You just don't know that.

I have no reason to think otherwise.

If I see data supporting that they are fundamentally different/traumatized people emotionally, then I will revise my assessment, but until then they seem fine.

[Taboo]

Optimystic_X wrote...

The Angry One wrote...





You just don't know that.

I have no reason to think otherwise.

If I see data supporting that they are fundamentally different/traumatized people emotionally, then I will revise my assessment, but until then they seem fine.

Actually what I see is three similar ending cutscenes with some paint slapped on.

I think Joker's limping in the Synthesis ending confirms this.

[Lookout1390]

Glad, I wasn't a moron and ACTUALLY picked Synthesis...lol

Destroy, blow them Reapers away.

[Johcande XX]

Johcande XX wrote...

I was thinking about this ending the other day and realized something; it's the only ending that even if everything the Kid tells you is true, still doesn't solve the conflict that the whole series is based upon.

So you jump into a green beam, so.
Everyone is now partially synthetic, so.
All synthetics are now partially organic, so.

Reapers are still outside, reaping. What tells them to stop? And I know that people are now 'evolved', but Jim over here just saw his alliance buddy get lazered; do you honestly think that just because everything's the same that he won't want to kill the Reapers anyway?

After the blast, if there's still free will, then most of the galaxy is still going to be after the Reapers just out of vengeance sake. As mostly synthetic, the Reapers will have to defend themselves, like the Geth did. This ending doesn't solve anything, it's a big green waste of time.

Since no one responded and I'd like other's perspectives; oh, and I crave validation.

[PsyrenY]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Actually what I see is three similar ending cutscenes with some paint slapped on.

The increased affection between Joker and EDI (complete with Garden of Eden/new beginning overtones) is unique to Synthesis, actually.

[nategator]

Because people hate the ending for a variety of reasons. They suspect that Synthesis was Bioware's preferred ending, ergo they really hate Synthesis.

It's not more complicated than that. Most of the other criticisms are reading facts into the story that never existed.

[Taboo]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Actually what I see is three similar ending cutscenes with some paint slapped on.

The increased affection between Joker and EDI (complete with Garden of Eden/new beginning overtones) is unique to Synthesis, actually.

It's a very small difference. An addition. Similar.

The rest of it is very similar. At this time Synthesis doesn't seem to do much to help Joker's condition.

That is a fact because we can see it.

[Lookout1390]

Though doesn't really matter, none of the endings never really solve the problem anyways.

Control, Shepard will eventually cave and the process starts all over again.
Synthesis, people will find another reason to wage war, like he said, the chaos is inevitable.
Destroy, wipes the slate clean, but the overall problem still exist and the chaos will come back.

Not only is a lame plot, but there isn't even a lame solution to it.

[PsyrenY]

Taboo-XX wrote...

It's a very small difference. An addition. Similar.

The rest of it is very similar. At this time Synthesis doesn't seem to do much to help Joker's condition.

That is a fact because we can see it.

Even assuming it wasn't lazy cinematics and Synthesis really didn't fix Joker, that's a moot point. To end the cycle, the primary impact of Synthesis has to be mental, not physical.

[Taboo]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

It's a very small difference. An addition. Similar.

The rest of it is very similar. At this time Synthesis doesn't seem to do much to help Joker's condition.

That is a fact because we can see it.

Even assuming it wasn't lazy cinematics and Synthesis really didn't fix Joker, that's a moot point. To end the cycle, the primary impact of Synthesis has to be mental, not physical.

Quite a few things are moot points until we have more information in the Extended Cut.

To what degree does it affect organics? Are all basic organics affected? Can something go wrong with it? Can it be explained?

[YNation913]

The Angry One wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...


Mind =/= Personality. EDI and Joker are still EDI and Joker, whatever mental capabilities they gained from the process. (Greater emotional range in EDI's case I would assume, and greater heuristical capability in Joker's.)

You just don't know that.

Then how can you be a proponent of mass suicide as a consequence of synthesis? People have to understand the situations they are in before they can decide to kill themselves, no?

Modifié par YNation913, 09 mai 2012 - 10:56 .

[Zix13]

Actually the biggest problem with synthesis is that it's completely unrelated to the conflict.
"Shepard you can
a) destroy the reapers, ending the war
control the reapers, ending the war
c) turn everyone into a cyborg"

Modifié par Zix13, 09 mai 2012 - 10:58 .