528 réponses à ce sujet

[akenn312]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

akenn312 wrote...

So your saying because Saren tried to harness the Reaper technology thats why he was indoctrinated and his version of synthesis is evil and different. 

I'm not saying that at all.

I'm saying whatever good he was planning to reap from Reaper technology went down the drain once he got indoctrinated and the Reapers started controlling him for their own uses.

At that point, I think they deceived Saren by telling him that they'd help provide the benefits he was hoping for if he'd join them, though for my part that's just a guess.

Still that does not explain why it's okay for Shepard to use sythesis to change natural evolution when it's basically the same theory of the Reapers and a Indoctrinated Turian Specter in the Mass Effect game. That's what it simply boils down too. Why am I fighting Saren in the first game only to do the exact same thing he was going to do in the last game?

Why am I arguing back and fourth with the Illusve man about how trying to control the Reapers is wrong and impossible for us to do, then I do the exact same thing at the end? 

It''s the same as telling my freind that robbing a bank is wrong and criminal because a gang member told him too and stopping him from doing it, then robbing the bank the next day because that same gang member told me too but convinced me it was for a good cause. That makes no sense does it?

And again I ask you why is it okay again for Shepard to allow these machines to tamper with organic/sythetic natural evolution again? It's basically letting them do exaclty what they set out to do in the first place. They wanted to harvest man and machine with sythesis in the begining, and guess what they were still able to do it. But now with a pretty green light instead of impaling everyone. We still do not get to keep our own form and go back to evolving the way we were naturally meant to. Reapers win. 

Modifié par akenn312, 09 mai 2012 - 11:46 .

[Silpheed58]

Green = bad for the same reason we don't
1. Execute all murderers
2. Topple all dictators in our world
3. Sterilize all persons old enough to reproduce but could be consider unfit mentally or finacially to have babies.
4. Disallow the elderly to drive.
5. Force vaccination of citizens
6. Outlaw Drinking and Smoking and food that makes you fat.


And the list goes on and on.

[Gyroscopic_Trout]

You can logic this problem one way or the other, but that's actually my problem with it. It's a purely logical solution, calculating and pessimistic. Colour me sentimental, but I always thought Mass Effect's take on human nature was more upbeat and uplifting than 'we are all inherently flawed and doomed, so let's jam toasters into our brains.'

[TheClonesLegacy]

It Disrupts the Natural Order of the Universe, Since Evolution Takes time Allowing for Species to Adept to environments...It however isn't a Green God beam that some how merges the DNA of organics and Machines (yeah cause Machines are just so full of DNA). The stupidity just speaks for itself.

[Xellith]

"Final evolution of life" is itself absurd if you take it literally. It must mean that life would not evolve to another "type" rather than life stopping evolving completely. So humans turians etc will still evolve into other lifeforms along the way.

Life "stopping" evolving would just make the galaxy stagnate.

Would viruses and bacteria be forever uncurable? SPECULATION FOR EVERYONE!

[antares_sublight]

Xellith wrote...

Would viruses and bacteria be forever uncurable? SPECULATION FOR EVERYONE!

Viruses and bacteria would be synthetic hybrids too!

[KingZayd]

Optimystic_X wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

How is a different reaction not indicative of a  personality change?

Different from what? I'm explaining why there wouldn't be mass suicides and rioting in the streets. Do you have proof that would even happen?

You were saying there wouldn't be mass suicides and rioting because a hybrid mind would be different from an organic mind. The fact that they behave differently in the same situation means there is a personality change. Their personality is different to what it was before.

[KingZayd]

Optimystic_X wrote...

antares_sublight wrote...

Plants don't start out with personalities. Those lifeforms that do, have those personalities fundamentally altered by synthesis. They're not the same people/beings they were before.

I've long said that synthesis has to change your mental processes (a la transhumanism) to be the effective deterrent that the Catalyst believes it to be. If it is just cosmetic, then it's a waste of time.

A synthesized race, to be consistent with the catalyst's claims, would have to be more mentally agile, otherwise they will just end up creating AI again (to compensate for their own mental deficiencies) and restarting the cycle. A side-effect of this would be the ability to, like EDI, adapt to new occurrences at lightning speed.

And fast adaptation = minimal/no trauma/suicides.

The Angry One wrote...


Alright really? Do you honestly think that if synthesis happened right now, there wouldn't be mass panic in the streets?
Multiply that for every world out in the galaxy that doesn't even know what the hell's going on.

If you say their "synthetic side" will prevent this, THEN THEIR MINDS HAVE BEEN ALTERED.

Mind =/= Personality. EDI and Joker are still EDI and Joker, whatever mental capabilities they gained from the process. (Greater emotional range in EDI's case I would assume based on her affection, and greater heuristical capability in Joker's if Synthesis works as advertised.)

Mind and Personality are linked. Change one, and the other is changed with it.

EDI and Joker, if it's JUST their mental capabilites as portrayed, still have different personalities. They would become EDI with a twist, and Joker with a twist.

[KingZayd]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Actually what I see is three similar ending cutscenes with some paint slapped on.

The increased affection between Joker and EDI (complete with Garden of Eden/new beginning overtones) is unique to Synthesis, actually.

How is that increased affection? Were they not dating before this event? Had they not already begun pursuing a relationship?

[KingZayd]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

It's a very small difference. An addition. Similar.

The rest of it is very similar. At this time Synthesis doesn't seem to do much to help Joker's condition.

That is a fact because we can see it.

Even assuming it wasn't lazy cinematics and Synthesis really didn't fix Joker, that's a moot point. To end the cycle, the primary impact of Synthesis has to be mental, not physical.

So we are brainwashing everyone then?

[D24O]

I don't hate synthesis, I just feel that the ending choices we are given are really poorly explained by some energy being who may or may not know what the hell that big machine that parked itself over its house even does. All we get are some vague lines, and a short cutscene. Not enough to really get any idea as to what we actually did.

[Zolt51]

ZombieChad wrote...
"What right do you have to make that choice?" 

I dunno. Maybe I'm the guy saving everyone's ass and I've got to make *some* choice or else everyone dies. You're welcome to try and sue me afterwards too.

[Zolt51]

D24O wrote...

I don't hate synthesis, I just feel that the ending choices we are given are really poorly explained by some energy being who may or may not know what the hell that big machine that parked itself over its house even does. All we get are some vague lines, and a short cutscene. Not enough to really get any idea as to what we actually did.

True enough. Hopefully the EC will address that.

[frylock23]

Optimystic_X wrote...


Mind =/= Personality. EDI and Joker are still EDI and Joker, whatever mental capabilities they gained from the process. (Greater emotional range in EDI's case I would assume based on her affection, and greater heuristical capability in Joker's if Synthesis works as advertised.)

Except it wasn't really advertised at all. That's the problem. Your speculation says that synthetics gain emotions and organics get greater mental speed and processing power. However, I don't seem to recall Star Brat actually saying that. So those conclusions are purely your conclusions and aren't anymore valid thanything else someone came up with on these forums.

And again, how do you justify forcing those things on everyone without their consent? You may see them as a benefit, but there may be those who do not and would reject it.

And as you say, mind may not equal personality, and someone's personality may be what leads them to reject synthesis creating the downward spiral that leads to suicide or the desire to no longer function. What if some synthetics prefer an emotionless state and cannot cope with emotions? What if some humans cannot cope with increased mental acuity? How would an autistic person like David Archer cope with it for example? It might cause traumatic mental overload.

Synthesis is protrayed as one-size-fits-all, but there's a very good reason why no one wants to get married in a one-size-fits-all dress.

Modifié par frylock23, 10 mai 2012 - 03:39 .

[FlyingSquirrel]

akenn312 wrote...
That's the problem, even if it's a different synthesis the first game already made us(At least me) feel the idea of merging with machines is unnatural and in-line with the bad guys and the Reapers goal. Take out Saren's indoctrination. The basic premise of Mass Effect was Saren not going to give people a choice in the matter of how to save them and would possibly destroy them, and he was going to merge man and machine to do it.

Well, I guess I just had a slightly different take on it. As best I can remember, Saren doesn't even say anything about combining organics with machines until the final confrontation with Shepard on the Citadel, when Shepard challenges him on allowing himself to be implanted by Sovereign. I thought Saren was wrong for several reasons - he's killing a lot of innocent people, he's (as you said) taking away others' chance to choose how to respond to the Reapers, and his plan still seems likely to result in widespread enslavement or indoctrination *if* the Reapers even kept their end of the bargain (which I assumed they probably wouldn't). I didn't even necessarily take much stock in his organic/machine merger talk, since I figured it could easily just be another lie that Sovereign had told him.

Take the Illusive man, he believed in controlling the Reapers, so we might find that ideal less disgusting because he is still trying to defeat them but it's still considered an awful choice because the Illusive man came up with the idea. We consider his way of thinking evil and wrong. So control naturally feels evil and misguided.

He sometimes talks about it in much more aggressive terms, though, talking about wanting to "dominate" the Reapers and (I think) "harvest their essence." The "blue ending" doesn't do anything to suggest that Shepard is attempting anything similar - all that happens to the Reapers is that they stop attacking and leave. Now, if we're assuming that Shepard (in whatever form (s)he still exists) is keeping them in a state of permanent brainwashing or something, then yes, it's uncomfortably close to TIM's thinking, but I saw no reason to assume that. If they've been under the Catalyst's control all this time, they may not even be naturally hostile or aggressive once that control is broken.

That's why all the choices to me naturally feel wrong. People want different endings because all these choices are abhorrent and in line with the villains in Mass Effects thinking process and one is basically killing off the Geth who help you and EDI.

Well, I agree on that point, but to me it really just comes down to the issues of choice and free will. Those issues aside, I didn't see Shepard's possible choices as being all that similar to the approaches of Saren or TIM.

[mjh417]

I refuse to support an ending and a game thats final message is in favor of FASCISM. Its that classic fascist sadomasochistic crap of a "god," or "god in the machine" rather, telling the people or "the organics", that you were all made sick but yet now are commanded to be well, or else risk horrific punishment for being the sick things we were made to be instead of being the well we are being cruelly commanded to be.

If there was one thing no Shep ever stood for, it was fascism. The ending is a betrayal.

[Balek-Vriege]

mjh417 wrote...

I refuse to support an ending and a game thats final message is in favor of FASCISM. Its that classic fascist sadomasochistic crap of a "god," or "god in the machine" rather, telling the people or "the organics", that you were all made sick but yet now are commanded to be well, or else risk horrific punishment for being the sick things we were made to be instead of being the well we are being cruelly commanded to be.

If there was one thing no Shep ever stood for, it was fascism. The ending is a betrayal.

That's not really facism...  Facism is really about centralizing a nation/society around a certain unifying, but exclusive idea or group of people.  If your part of that group you have nothing to fear since you get the benefits of being a "true citizen" or whatever.  If you're not part of that group than your most likely going to not have any rights or benefits, because you are seen as the enemy, to be unproductive or to have a negative impact on said society/nation.  Synthesis is none of those things and is really beyond any school of thought when it comes to goverment and societal ideas.  It's transhumanism.

God in the Machine or Deus Ex Machina is a literary term...  nothing to do with facism.  More to do with Greek stories overusing Gods, which had no previous reference in the work, to save the day or ressurecting the hero in the 24th hour.

---

As to the actual point of discussion, I like the Synthesis ending.

Do I think it's morally or ethically bad to forcefully rewrite the fabric of organic and synthetic life for the rest of time?  Definitely.

Does that mean Shepard can't make the decision anyways?  Nope.

If I was in Shepard's shoes and had the chance for Synthesis and knew it would work the way it was described, would I choose it?  I think so.

The great things about transhumanism is breaking the bad parts of human nature and the self destruction caused by technological progress etc.  The great risk is that by breaking human nature you're technically no longer human and are now some new form of life with a totally new way of thinking and living.  It's one thing to leave such a decision up to each individual, but an entirely different thing when the decision is left to one person out of trillions upon trillions of lifeforms.

Except the level of Synthesis offered by the Crucible is most likely a one time deal and is more or less a perfect, best case scenario version of transhumanism (or transorganic/transythesis in this case).  Really hard to pass up if you think civilization as it stands now in real life or in Mass Effect 3 is almost doomed to failure one way or the other.

Sometimes the "right" choice is not always the "good" choice.

Edit:  Not saying Synthesis is 100% the right choice and the others aren't.  Just that in my case it seemed the best way forward if what the Catalyst says is true.

Modifié par Balek-Vriege, 10 mai 2012 - 07:30 .

[a.m.p]

@Optimystic_X
First of all. If synthesis rewrites everyone's reaction to it from rage, anger, freaking out and any other kind of negative response it might cause to "nah, it's ok", it does rewrite their personality. This is not about psychological stability or instability of organics compared to hybrids. This is about their core beliefs.

But you're saying it does not rewrite personality.
So tell me. What would Javik, the avatar of vengeance, who thinks machines are abominations and hybrids are even worse think and do when turned into a hybrid? What would the krogan, a race used to violence and recently cured of the genophage so they can restore the glory of their ancients, think and do when somebody forces them to be hybrids? Are they going to be okay with it? Or are they going to grab their guns and go look for someone to blame and kill horribly? How long before somebody shouts that this is all the humans' fault, because they build that doomsday device and who knows, maybe they were with the reapers all along, considering the reaper base was at Earth and no reapers died in the bright green flash? How long before someone starts a new pro-synthesis religion (The Shepard, anyone)? How long before what leadership there was left is overthrown and put on trial for forcing that on the galaxy? Because you have to give people someone to blame. And all that with a huge amount of heavily armed people stuck in the solar system and too busy figuring out how to live now, instead of uniting and cooperating to rebuild the galaxy.

It's either that - and that is chaos, but the starchild says that synthesis is a solution to chaos (which in itself is five kinds of wrong). Or it changes everyone's personality and core beliefs so that they are okay with it.
Which brings us to Joker, and his increased affection to EDI.

Let's compare what little information we have.
Control (picking it because in that ending EDI doesn't die either):www.youtube.com/watch
In the control ending the Normandy is chased by the wave of blue light
that blows up its engines. Joker with the help of EDI manages to crashland it in one piece on an unknown planet. He limps out of the ship and has the decency to look concerned.

Synthesis:www.youtube.com/watch
In the synthesis ending the Normandy is chased by the wave of green light that blows up its engines. Suddenly green glowing circuits appear on Joker's skin and on EDI. Joker still manages to crashland the ship in one piece on an unknown planet. He limps out of the ship, grins, grabs EDI and looks at the surrounding scenery with a happy smile.

Am I the only one who finds this little detail one of the creepiest parts of the whole ending?

Modifié par a.m.p, 10 mai 2012 - 07:45 .

[Balek-Vriege]

a.m.p wrote...

@Optimystic_X
First of all. If synthesis rewrites everyone's reaction to it from rage, anger, freaking out and any other kind of negative response it might cause to "nah, it's ok", it does rewrite their personality. This is not about psychological stability or instability of organics compared to hybrids. This is about their core beliefs.

But you're saying it does not rewrite personality.
So tell me. What would Javik, the avatar of vengeance, who thinks machines are abominations and hybrids are even worse think and do when turned into a hybrid? What would the krogan, a race used to violence and recently cured of the genophage so they can restore the glory of their ancients, think and do when somebody forces them to be hybrids? Are they going to be okay with it? Or are they going to grab their guns and go look for someone to blame and kill horribly? How long before somebody shouts that this is all the humans' fault, because they build that doomsday device and who knows, maybe they were with the reapers all along, considering the reaper base was at Earth and no reapers died in the bright green flash? How long before someone starts a new pro-synthesis religion (The Shepard, anyone)? How long before what leadership there was left is overthrown and put on trial for forcing that on the galaxy? Because you have to give people someone to blame. And all that with a huge amount of heavily armed people stuck in the solar system and too busy figuring out how to live now, instead of uniting and cooperating to rebuild the galaxy.

It's either that - and that is chaos, but the starchild says that synthesis is a solution to chaos (which in itself is five kinds of wrong). Or it changes everyone's personality and core beliefs so that they are okay with it.
Which brings us to Joker, and his increased affection to EDI.

Let's compare what little information we have.
Control (picking it because in that ending EDI doesn't die either):www.youtube.com/watch
In the control ending the Normandy is chased by the wave of blue light
that blows up its engines. Joker with the help of EDI manages to crashland it in one piece on an unknown planet. He limps out of the ship and has the decency to look concerned.

Synthesis:www.youtube.com/watch
In the synthesis ending the Normandy is chased by the wave of green light that blows up its engines. Suddenly green glowing circuits appear on Joker's skin and on EDI. Joker still manages to crashland the ship in one piece on an unknown planet. He limps out of the ship, grins, grabs EDI and looks at the surrounding scenery with a happy smile.

Am I the only one who finds this little detail one of the creepiest parts of the whole ending?

Nope.  When I played the ending for the first time I thought of the possibility of it being brain washing and I got a creepy feeling.

There's another possibility as well though - Synthesis makes us naturally think differently and on an entirely new level.  Would Joker be as concerned if he has the processing/calculating power and logical deduction of EDI?  Maybe not.  In that case i'm reassured by the fact EDI and Joker are still in love, because it shows they have empathy still (if not more).

Unfortunately we don't really know what exactly the outcome of Synthesis is.  Until we do I think it will remain as controversial as it is now.

Modifié par Balek-Vriege, 10 mai 2012 - 08:05 .

[Noelemahc]

Well, I guess I just had a slightly different take on it. As best I can remember, Saren doesn't even say anything about combining organics with machines until the final confrontation with Shepard on the Citadel, when Shepard challenges him on allowing himself to be implanted by Sovereign.

IIRC, Saren first brings it up on Virmire. And don't forget, he was partially techno-organic ever since the original Reaper Beacon changed him (and TIM, haha) back during the First Contact War. Neither were particularly good or sane people before, and it certainly didn't help any much.

Am I the only one who finds this little detail one of the creepiest parts of the whole ending?

Stepford Smilers for everyone! Sometimes it hurts to be a troper, don't it?

On a more serious note, enforcing the Singularity on everyone with Synthesis makes for an epic plot bunny for a side-sequel (a-la "Shin Megami Tensei If..."), but you have to be aware that it's gonna take the entire setting and rip up into very tiny pieces. The authors of the Unofficial Ending Slides went overboard with the nightmare fuel, writing up the Synthesized organics as being able to mentally access the Extranet and commune with the Reapers if they would so choose. The fact that everyone retains their memories and personalities should be accepted as a given, but the CONTEXT of these memories will change now that they are being viewed with a different mind.

Recall, if you will, the Farscape episode "My Three Crichtons". John gets tripled - where there was only him, there now are aalso Caveman John and a Vulcan-evolution-level John. They all approach the issue of "one of the three has to be sacrificed" in different manners despite being the exact same person prior to the event, having the same memories. No spoilers here, but it does paint even the Original Crichton in an unsavory light.

Synthesis, by and in itself, is more of a mind-frak than Marathon Infinity, and I always thought that nothing can ever beat a game about a dead Marine resurrected as a cyborg killer masquerading as human that repels an alien slaver invasion and then gets shanghaied into a transdimensional transtemporal adventure where he has to do stuff, then prevent himself from doing stuff, then do some of that stuff AGAIN, and then becomes a GOD capable of rewriting Fate itself. I was mistaken, apparently =)

Modifié par Noelemahc, 10 mai 2012 - 08:12 .

[a.m.p]

Balek-Vriege wrote...

There's another possibility as well though - Synthesis makes us naturally think differently and on an entirely new level.  Would Joker be as concerned if he has the processing/calculating power and logical deduction of EDI?  Maybe not.  In that case i'm reassured by the fact EDI and Joker are still in love, because it shows they have empathy still (if not more).

The bolded part  - case in point. If I suddenly stop thinking that it is seventeen kinds of wrong, either it because I am reprogrammed to think "I am a happy hybrid", or be it a consequence of synthetic implants magically appearing in my brain, I stop being me.

As for emapthy, I'm sorry, but Joker just left (fled? was ordered away?) from a battle where thousands died. He left Shepard there (I am going to assume he thought they were dead). He does not know the outcome of that battle. His body was just changed on a fundamental level. He's marooned on a possibly hostile planet with no way of getting back.
And he's grinning.

[Noelemahc]

And he's grinning.

Sometimes the prospect of getting laid CAN overrule everything else for a male brain. Question is, how much can his new hybrid body ENJOY the process? Does EDI even have the necessary parts?

If I suddenly stop thinking that it is seventeen kinds of wrong, either it because I am reprogrammed to think "I am a happy hybrid", or be it a consequence of synthetic implants magically appearing in my brain, I stop being me.

More like, because your body will now produce and react differently to, all the various neurochemical responses it used to have. Like changing a firmware in a machine, y'know? You're not you, you're a carbon copy made of different materials now.

[Armass81]

Next step in evolution? The Catalyst calls it the final step of evolution and that is BS imo. Only someone with very limited vision would say that... Casey do I see you? Stop reading those transhumanism books back there!

Besides everyone has the right to choose on their own, no one man has the right to choose for you how youre going to evolve or be, not even Shepard. Its disgusting. Its the reapers path, they force their way on you. How is synthesis any different? Its forcing a certain path on you.

Modifié par Armass81, 10 mai 2012 - 09:52 .

[a.m.p]

Noelemahc wrote...

And he's grinning.

Sometimes the prospect of getting laid CAN overrule everything else for a male brain.

Oh. Well, now everything makes sense. They should hurry though.

Because meanwhile Javik back inside is busy slicing everyone's throats as an act of mercy, and once he's done, he'll go after them too, before killing himself. Good old Javik.

[huntsman2310]

Well, I'll put this way.

And this will explain why it's so wrong on many profound levels.

Shepard accomplished what Kirk couldn't do. At the same time. Didn't even have to bat his eyelashes.