528 réponses à ce sujet

[Zolt51]

Hey, just remembered a survey I ran a while ago before the EC was announced.

https://docs.google....X3BTOWIxbVFZSFE

Goes to show that while probably not a lot of people will actually pick the Synthesis ending, it's a minority that wants it removed from the game altogether.

Modifié par Zolt51, 10 mai 2012 - 10:55 .

[Ieldra]

I cannot access that document.

[Zolt51]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I cannot access that document.

O dammit, I thought I'd found a way to share the graph form directly

Try this instead and click on form=> Show summary

https://docs.google....X3BTOWIxbVFZSFE

Modifié par Zolt51, 10 mai 2012 - 10:55 .

[Ieldra]

D24O wrote...
I don't hate synthesis, I just feel that the ending choices we are given are really poorly explained by some energy being who may or may not know what the hell that big machine that parked itself over its house even does. All we get are some vague lines, and a short cutscene. Not enough to really get any idea as to what we actually did.

I would be fine with a short explanation that remains somewhat vague and widely interpretable. But that short explanation must make sense.

In the leaked script the phrasing was

C: "It is a very elegant solution. And a path you have already started down."
C: "The harvesting will cease. It will be a new ascension, for synthetic and organic life."
S: "So we'll just... go on living, together?"
C: "We synthetics will become more like you, and organic life will become like us."

I wonder why they changed it from something interesting into something nonsensical. Sorry, Bioware, I don't like to use unpublished material, but in this case I feel fully justified.

[Ieldra]

Zolt51 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
I cannot access that document.

O dammit, I thought I'd found a way to share the graph form directly

Try this instead and click on form=> Show summary

https://docs.google....X3BTOWIxbVFZSFE

Now I can see the data. Unfortunately, I cannot access the form functions. They are greyed out.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 10 mai 2012 - 11:22 .

[PsyrenY]

KingZayd wrote...

You were saying there wouldn't be mass suicides and rioting because a hybrid mind would be different from an organic mind. The fact that they behave differently in the same situation means there is a personality change. Their personality is different to what it was before.

I still don't agree that it's a personality change, but you know what? If it is, and that change means no headless-chicken mass-panic, so much the better.

But I personally think having the emotional range of an organic mind + the resilience of a synthetic one is a worthy goal.

KingZayd wrote...

How is that increased affection? Were they not dating before this event? Had they not already begun pursuing a relationship?

In the green ending, we see EDI acting in a way she never has during the game - snuggling up to Joker and putting her head on his shoulder. Compare that to her very standoffish behavior both on the Citadel Commons, and on the dance floor in Purgatory.

And her behavior in those places wasn't because she didn't care for him - she just lacked the empathy to understand how he'd feel, having her stand there ramrod stiff while he boogies in front of her like a fool.

[a.m.p]

Optimystic_X wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

You were saying there wouldn't be mass suicides and rioting because a hybrid mind would be different from an organic mind. The fact that they behave differently in the same situation means there is a personality change. Their personality is different to what it was before.

I still don't agree that it's a personality change, but you know what? If it is, and that change means no headless-chicken mass-panic, so much the better.

But I personally think having the emotional range of an organic mind + the resilience of a synthetic one is a worthy goal.

You, personally. Exactly.
But you aren't being asked to decide this for you personally. You are being asked to decide this for every single sentient being in the galaxy. Please stop assuming that if something is good for you personally it automatically is good for everyone else. Or even for the majority of those you're deciding for.

And you know what? If synthesis is such an awesome thing, how about we first stop the reapers and then, without a knife to the throat of the galaxy start thinking about it. We still have the crucible plans, right? How about we arrive at the conclusion that it is the next logical step in our development and is necessary to solve the synthetic/organic problem in our own time? Now that the catalyst has kindly warned us about this problem's existance (would never have guessed otherwise).

[Elite Midget]

Because I spent ME1 telling Saren he was an idiot for thinking Synthesis was the best way and I think it's stupid for Shepard to suddenly change their mind just because a random Starchild told him/her to.

[Computron2000]

Synthesis is great because the Reapers get to spray their essence on to everyone. I'm sure many people will love to get sprayed on by other people and not get mad

[Earthborn_Shepard]

Imagine waking up and suddenly being half synthetic

nuff said.

[PsyrenY]

a.m.p wrote...

Please stop assuming that if something is good for you personally it automatically is good for everyone else. Or even for the majority of those you're deciding for.

I'm not. I'm assuming it's better than the alternatives. (No Geth, and uncertain Control.)
I've said many times that if I had more certainty as to the length and degree of Control, that that would be my preferred option.

a.m.p wrote...
And you know what? If synthesis is such an awesome thing, how about we first stop the reapers and then, without a knife to the throat of the galaxy start thinking about it. We still have the crucible plans, right? How about we arrive at the conclusion that it is the next logical step in our development and is necessary to solve the synthetic/organic problem in our own time? Now that the catalyst has kindly warned us about this problem's existance (would never have guessed otherwise).

Stop them how? With Destroy, there's no synthetics left to merge with. Whereas Control might fail, leaving us worse off than before (facing the Reapers with no Crucible.)

This is your shot, right here and now. You don't get a second chance.

[Ieldra]

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...
Imagine waking up and suddenly being half synthetic

nuff said.

My reaction would depend utterly on what exactly that entails for me. Joker and EDI seem happy with the results, nor are they in any way deformed. And there might be some new abilities as well, given that, after all, it is said to be an ascension. All in all, I'd be curious.

[Ieldra]

Elite Midget wrote...
Because I spent ME1 telling Saren he was an idiot for thinking Synthesis was the best way and I think it's stupid for Shepard to suddenly change their mind just because a random Starchild told him/her to.

You spent ME1 telling Saren he was an idiot for wanting to submit to the Reapers. He just used an organic/synthetic merge as a justification. The idea was the vehicle, the goal was submission, indoctrinated as he was. 

This is totally irrelevant for discussing the merits or drawbacks of the Synthesis.

[akenn312]

FlyingSquirrel wrote...
Well, I guess I just had a slightly different take on it. As best I can remember, Saren doesn't even say anything about combining organics with machines until the final confrontation with Shepard on the Citadel, when Shepard challenges him on allowing himself to be implanted by Sovereign. I thought Saren was wrong for several reasons - he's killing a lot of innocent people, he's (as you said) taking away others' chance to choose how to respond to the Reapers, and his plan still seems likely to result in widespread enslavement or indoctrination *if* the Reapers even kept their end of the bargain (which I assumed they probably wouldn't). I didn't even necessarily take much stock in his organic/machine merger talk, since I figured it could easily just be another lie that Sovereign had told him.

It really doesn't matter when he reveals the plan or even if you thought he ways lying at the time he still says the ultimate goal of the Reapers and that is to make man and machine merge, Sovereign even eludes to this motivation. But Shepard still argues against this and that method is wrong and fights against it. Furthermore isn't Shepard by choosing synthesis taking away others chance to choose for themselves how to live and evolve?  Also if you don't think the Reapers would keep the end of the bargain with Saren in Mass Effect, why do you think they now are going to keep their end of the bargain? It comes down to this, just because we perceive Shepard as heroic and good does not mean he can choose what Saren did and now the choice is right. The method and the concept of merging man and machine and taking away everyones free will/choice and who they are by changing their DNA is still wrong.

FlyingSquirrel wrote...
He sometimes talks about it in much more aggressive terms, though, talking about wanting to "dominate" the Reapers and (I think) "harvest their essence." The "blue ending" doesn't do anything to suggest that Shepard is attempting anything similar - all that happens to the Reapers is that they stop attacking and leave. Now, if we're assuming that Shepard (in whatever form (s)he still exists) is keeping them in a state of permanent brainwashing or something, then yes, it's uncomfortably close to TIM's thinking, but I saw no reason to assume that. If they've been under the Catalyst's control all this time, they may not even be naturally hostile or aggressive once that control is broken.

No mater how aggressive or dominating the Illusive Man is he still thinks the method of Control is the way to beat  the Reapers. Shepard is not arguing during the game that someone like him should control the Reapers instead, he is arguing that attempting this method is morally wrong and no one should attempt it. It the same as the Saren argument. Evein if  Shepard is good and strong willed the opportunity to be corrupted by that much power is too great to leave to chance. So again why is Shepard all of a sudden going against all he was fighting against with the Illusive Man?

FlyingSquirrel wrote...
Well, I agree on that point, but to me it really just comes down to the issues of choice and free will. Those issues aside, I didn't see Shepard's possible choices as being all that similar to the approaches of Saren or TIM.

It's because you view Saren and TIM as evil and Shepard as good and you want to believe Shep will give us a good DNA merge, or be a good Reaper king, but the methods are still the same and ultimately what the Reapers were trying to get TIM and Saren do with Indoctrination.
So if Shepard chooses these three with free will does that make it right? He is not giving the galaxy a choice in the matter chainging their DNA or Controlling the Reapers.

Modifié par akenn312, 10 mai 2012 - 01:42 .

[Noelemahc]

This is totally irrelevant for discussing the merits or drawbacks of the Synthesis.

It isn't. He was partially huskified a while before, remember? He only got really indoctrinated, however, when he met Sovereign. The interim period - the one when Anderson knew him - is as good a reference point as any. Between that and how he was in Jack Harper's time, you can paint a picture that generally, your personality remains unaltered - he was a racist unprincipled bastard hiding violence behind patriotism before, he retained all of that even as he became a Reaper puppet.

So you know that you remain yourself, but, as I pointed out earlier, since your brain chemisty will undeniably be altered, your mental capabilities will be affected. It's not brainwashing, it's a change of scenery. Schizophrenia in reverse, as Max Payne aptly put it, a change in context without changing the brain.

If you want to know how the reverse works for synthetics, go dig up any Omega Sentinel story from the X-Men comics. They had craploads of "What a robot will do when it gets emotions?"/"What a hoo-man will do when it discovers it's a robot even though nothing else had changed in it?" stories involving both the Terminator-like Omegas (who were made from actual living, breathing, people) and the titanic Supers (one of which got so depressed at the realization it helped perpetrate genocide of mutants, it flew off to jump into the Sun, I kid you not).

It's because you view Saren and TIM as evil and Shepard as good and you want to believe Shep will give us a good DNA merge, or be a good Reaper king, but the methods are still the same and ultimately what the Reapers were trying to get TIM and Saren do with Indoctrination.
So if Shepard chooses these three with free will does that make it right? He is not giving the galaxy a choice in the matter chainging their DNA or Controlling the Reapers.

Good point. "It's right because I AM DOING IT INSTEAD" never worked as an argument in the real world. Well, except all those times the US of A invaded random countries around the world, but that was "right BECAUSE WE'RE LOOKING FOR WMDs" or somesuch =)

I still don't agree that it's a personality change, but you know what?
If it is, and that change means no headless-chicken mass-panic, so much
the better.

You wake up one day and find that:
* Your eyes glow green
* Your skin has a metallic sheen with a glowing green circuitboard pattern in place of your veins and arteries.
* Your breakfast tastes funny
* That metallic tang in your mouth is the EM field your microwave generates.
* You've got this weird sensation in the back of your skull which a skilled engineer explains are all the radiowaves floating around. At least you now know your cell phone will ring about seven picoseconds in advance.
* You can actually tell the difference between one picosecond and the next now
* Your Personal Synthetic Assistant is rude to you when you get to work because she's having a bad chassis day
* Robotic miners across the different colonies go on strike, protesting lack of medical insurance now that they're partially made of meat or whatever it is meat now is.
* You're not sure alcohol will affect you the way it used to and you really really need that glass of scotch right now.

Modifié par Noelemahc, 10 mai 2012 - 01:54 .

[frylock23]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...
Imagine waking up and suddenly being half synthetic

nuff said.

My reaction would depend utterly on what exactly that entails for me. Joker and EDI seem happy with the results, nor are they in any way deformed. And there might be some new abilities as well, given that, after all, it is said to be an ascension. All in all, I'd be curious.

Exactly. You might like it. But you are one being out of countless trillions since we're talking all organic life here right down to the very simplest. Just because you might like is a poor sample size to go one, even if we expland it to include you, Joker and EDI, it's still a very poor sample size.

And in all honesty, you're still arguing with Joker and EDI after the fact. When you make your intial decision, you don't know the outcome for them or anyone else. It's a tremendous leap of faith you're making because it sounds desirable to you, the player, that's translating through to your Shepard.

Yes, you do have some possible knowns associated with destroy. You know, if you're taking Star Brat at face value, that EDI and the Geth and yourself will likely die, but you also know that the Reapers will too. You know that the cycle will end, and the mission you came to do will be accomplished. That's a pretty heavy price.

With synthesis you know that all organic life and all synthetic life will also cease to be because you will be making it into something else entirely. To me that's a much heavier price. I set out to save life as it was, not make it something else. To me, synthesis sounds too much like the Reapers goal -> salvation through destruction. I'd be destroying it as it is to save it. And there are precious few guarantees from the Reaper agent I'm looking at that the end results are anything desirable for anyone.

At that point in the game, it comes down how much you, the player, is willing to impose your beliefs on others. If you can't stomach it at all, you go for control in the hopes that just your own sacrifice will be enough even though it leaves the Reapers alive and may not achieve anything in the end. If you're like me, you take the slim hope that the Star Brat lies and choose destroy at least setting out to do what you came to do despite the possibility of horrible collateral damage and your own death. And, if you believe in imposing your own will on everyone in the name of the nebulous concept of the greater good for some unnamed and vaguely hinted at Utopia, you pick synthesis sacrificing yourself to create some kind of one galaxy order.

[PsyrenY]

Noelemahc wrote...

It isn't. He was partially huskified a while before, remember? He only got really indoctrinated, however, when he met Sovereign.

Wrong: he didn't get any implants until after Virmire. "Huskification" requires implants (hence the dragon's teeth) so without them, you can't possibly be a husk.

[antares_sublight]

On top of the myriad other reasons I've posted, choosing synthesis (which I did the first time around) is the most naive, rash, irresponsible decision in the game as it is.

* You have some idea of what Control is supposed to do, you have a good idea of the risks, you know TIM failed at it, and the ramifications are limited in scope.
* Destroy is explained and straightforward, you know the risks and ramifications.
* Synthesis is brand new, sounds like something you and others around you have been damning for 3 games, and you have absolutely no idea what it means, what the risks are, what the ramifications are, what will happen, and so on. And not only is it totally unknown to Shepard at the time of decision, but that total unknown is applicable to EVERY LIFE FORM IN THE GALAXY. And it seems to be favored by the most evil force in the galaxy, whom you just met. At decision time the way it is in the game, Shepard choosing synthesis would be the most irresponsible, riskiest thing done in the history of the galaxy.

Modifié par antares_sublight, 10 mai 2012 - 02:00 .

[Noelemahc]

Wrong: he didn't get any implants until after Virmire. "Huskification" requires implants (hence the dragon's teeth) so without them, you can't possibly be a husk.

We don't really know WHAT the exact nature of the device he and TIM were subjected to on Palaven was (except that those affected by it start hearing Reapers, get nifty glowy eyes and spontaneously grow metal body parts), so that's a little too sharp, dontcha think? B-sides, he does use the exact same character model throughout the game which looks more like a geth than a turian.

At decision time the way it is in the game, Shepard choosing synthesis would be the most irresponsible, riskiest thing done in the history of the galaxy.

Quite right. For all he knows, no organic mind will survive the process, going insane and shutting down. And no synthetic mind will be able to cope with the emotional consequences. Cue RoboCop 2 parade of RoboCop potential replacements =)

Modifié par Noelemahc, 10 mai 2012 - 02:03 .

[PsyrenY]

Noelemahc wrote...

* Your eyes glow green
* Your skin has a metallic sheen with a glowing green circuitboard pattern in place of your veins and arteries.
* Your breakfast tastes funny
* That metallic tang in your mouth is the EM field your microwave generates.
* You've got this weird sensation in the back of your skull which a skilled engineer explains are all the radiowaves floating around. At least you now know your cell phone will ring about seven picoseconds in advance.
* You can actually tell the difference between one picosecond and the next now
* Your Personal Synthetic Assistant is rude to you when you get to work because she's having a bad chassis day
* Robotic miners across the different colonies go on strike, protesting lack of medical insurance now that they're partially made of meat or whatever it is meat now is.
* You're not sure alcohol will affect you the way it used to and you really really need that glass of scotch right now.

Lots of speculations?
(Did ME even have "robotic miners?")

antares_sublight wrote...

On top of the myriad other reasons I've posted, choosing synthesis (which I did the first time around) is the most naive, rash, irresponsible decision in the game as it is.

* You have some idea of what Control is supposed to do, you have a good idea of the risks, you know TIM failed at it, and the ramifications are limited in scope.
* Destroy is explained and straightforward, you know the risks and ramifications.
* Synthesis is brand new, sounds like something you and others around you have been damning for 3 games, and you have absolutely no idea what it means, what the risks are, what the ramifications are, what will happen, and so on. And not only is it totally unknown to Shepard at the time of decision, but that total unknown is applicable to EVERY LIFE FORM IN THE GALAXY. And it seems to be favored by the most evil force in the galaxy, whom you just met. At decision time the way it is in the game, Shepard choosing synthesis would be the most irresponsible, riskiest thing done in the history of the galaxy.

Control: You actually have no idea of the ramifications. Very basic information such as "how absolute is my control" "how long will it last" and "how can I give orders when I'm dead" are left unanswered. If EC fills in these blanks I will gladly revisit it.

Destroy: Yes, it is straightforward genocide and thus unacceptable to my Paragon.

Synthesis: The Reaper's leader tells you the cycle will end - ensuring a cessation of Reaping not just for this generation but for all subsequent ones. This is an inherently attractive proposition.

[PsyrenY]

Noelemahc wrote...

We don't really know WHAT the exact nature of the device he and TIM were subjected to on Palaven was (except that those affected by it start hearing Reapers, get nifty glowy eyes and spontaneously grow metal body parts), so that's a little too sharp, dontcha think?

What device is that? And did it perform surgery on them?

Noelemahc wrote...
B-sides, he does use the exact same character model throughout the game which looks more like a geth than a turian.

Unique character models mean nothing at all plotwise. Benezia and Liara don't look like any other asari, Sheploo and Miranda don't look like any other human, Grunt doesn't look like any other Krogan, Legion looks like no other geth platform etc. It's merely an artistic cue that "this character is important" like oddly-colored hair/eyes in anime.

[Noelemahc]

Lots of speculations?

That's Problem 17 with the game's ending: There Is Such a Thing As Too Much Speculation. Remember what it did to Star Wars and Harry Potter? When people's headcanon ruined their enjoyment of sequels/prequels/midquels/spinoffs?

I'm using "robotic" in a broad sense. The ending is obscenely vague whether it considers VIs "dumb computers" (which won't even be affected by Destroy) or close enough to AIs to die in Destroy and become meaty in Synthesis. I mean, where do we draw the divisive line for supercomputers and AIs such as EDI that do not have a humanoid shell? Would have Blake's Seven's ORAC (which is a Demon of Laplace-grade AI packed into a rather rectangular case) become a tangled mass of organs? Would have Terminators and Snatchers and LMDs and Hollow Children grow real internal organs?

That's a scary set of thoughts which further the point that the endings were vague not for speculations, but because Mr. Walters and Co didn't think them through.

Synthesis: The Reaper's leader tells you the cycle will end - ensuring a cessation of Reaping not just for this generation but for all subsequent ones. This is an inherently attractive proposition.

And of course he has a flawless track records with plans, don't he? Did everyone forget the "sacrifice the soul of our species" motto Shepard threw at TIM? I'm sure that these new units will have souls, but what will happen to those souls?

Modifié par Noelemahc, 10 mai 2012 - 02:22 .

[antares_sublight]

Optimystic_X wrote...

antares_sublight wrote...

On top of the myriad other reasons I've posted, choosing synthesis (which I did the first time around) is the most naive, rash, irresponsible decision in the game as it is.

* You have some idea of what Control is supposed to do, you have a good idea of the risks, you know TIM failed at it, and the ramifications are limited in scope.
* Destroy is explained and straightforward, you know the risks and ramifications.
* Synthesis is brand new, sounds like something you and others around you have been damning for 3 games, and you have absolutely no idea what it means, what the risks are, what the ramifications are, what will happen, and so on. And not only is it totally unknown to Shepard at the time of decision, but that total unknown is applicable to EVERY LIFE FORM IN THE GALAXY. And it seems to be favored by the most evil force in the galaxy, whom you just met. At decision time the way it is in the game, Shepard choosing synthesis would be the most irresponsible, riskiest thing done in the history of the galaxy.

Control: You actually have no idea of the ramifications. Very basic information such as "how absolute is my control" "how long will it last" and "how can I give orders when I'm dead" are left unanswered. If EC fills in these blanks I will gladly revisit it.

Destroy: Yes, it is straightforward genocide and thus unacceptable to my Paragon.

Synthesis: The Reaper's leader tells you the cycle will end - ensuring a cessation of Reaping not just for this generation but for all subsequent ones. This is an inherently attractive proposition.

* I said you at least had some idea of what control is supposed to do. Things like the extent and how Shepard can control if dead are unknown, but like I said, limited in scope. Totally different from synthesis.
* BioWare's inclusion of genocide into Destroy is distasteful, yes.
* It is also extremely naive to quickly believe and agree with the most evil force in the galaxy you just met (how is that something a paragon would do anyway?) after a brief, content-free 2 minute chat that explains absolutely nothing about the fundamental genetic and existential changes you're about to force on every single life form in the entire galaxy (how is that something a paragon would do?). That's an inherently reckless, irresponsible and absurd proposition.

Modifié par antares_sublight, 10 mai 2012 - 02:18 .

[Ieldra]

@frylock23:
So it comes down to "not enough information" again? There I agree with you. We need more information. Though I still think it makes no sense to even include an option like Synthesis if the results aren't implied to be generally beneficial.

As for the changes effected by the Synthesis: in my interpretation, they are reversible. This goes somewhat against the description, but since synthetics and organics can't have a hybrid form with in-between basic building blocks because can be no such thing, all you can get - at least if you apply the defintions of synthetics and organics that are, implicitly or explicitly, used in the games - is an organism that is a mix of synthetic and organic parts. A symbiotic life form, if you want. Which means the change can be reversed on an indvidual basis.

This is still a solution to the problem because the Catalyst isn't concerned with individuals but with life in the galaxy as a whole.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 10 mai 2012 - 02:21 .

[frylock23]

Optimystic_X wrote...


Destroy: Yes, it is straightforward genocide and thus unacceptable to my Paragon.

Synthesis: The Reaper's leader tells you the cycle will end - ensuring a cessation of Reaping not just for this generation but for all subsequent ones. This is an inherently attractive proposition.

Yeah, but here's the dirty little secret -

So is synthesis. You are destroying the basic genetic structure of every organic being in the galaxy. They will cease to be. Your genetics are what make you a certain race, and you are planning to systematically wipe that out by rewriting that at the most intimate and basic level. And you're not just destroying the Geth (you'll be rewriting them too to make them other), you'll be doing this to turian, krogan, human, asari, batarian, salarian, yahg, etc.; then, you'll be extincting every known form of plant and animal life in the galaxy because you'll be wiping all of them out to create new forms, plus all the unknown ones, too.

Yeah, you might now be killing them, but you have wiped out every extant for of known life to replace it with your bio-synthetic rewrites. Congrats! They aren't what they were, and what they were have been annihilated.

I'll take my collateral damage against your total galactic extinction event any day.