528 réponses à ce sujet

[Shadow Quickpaw]

The Catalyst says: "Why not?" I had the distinct urge to break the bloody fourth wall and yell I'LL GIVE YOU SEVERAL DAMN GOOD REASONS WHY NOT!!!!!!!!!

1: Genetic diversity. With all life "localized" into this "new DNA," one good computer virus could wipe us all out. What's the point of having different species anyway...

2: It does nothing to solve the underlying "inevitable" destruction of all life by created inteligences (none of them do, actually. Not even "option A" (The Reapers))

3: It completely invalidates the idea of free will, or "Self determination" as the Geth call it. If everyone was offered the CHOICE to become partly synthetic I would be less against synthisis, but since we almost literally become "God" in no way do I find this option morally acceptable.

4: It is basically Saren's solution: "I am a vision of the future, Shepard. Organic and machine intertwined, a union of flesh and steal. The strengths of both, the weaknesses of neither. This is the final evolution of all life." Back then you could basically say **** off. Why can we not now?

5: Why are we even trusting this thing in the first place? It claims to have created the Reapers, so in essence it is the one responsible for quajillions of deaths across billions of years. Every sentient who lost their life to the Reapers died because this... THING decided completely on its own to decide the fate of everyone who will ever exist. YEAH. RIGHT... Why are we listening to you?!

6: It makes absolutely NO SENSE WHATSOEVER. In the last five-six minutes of interactive play (I use the word "interacive loosely") we are introduced to so many new concepts that they completely ruin any sense of coherance from the previous 99.9% of mostly excellent storytelling. This guy:Narrative-Coherance explains it so much better than me.

Modifié par Shadow Quickpaw, 10 mai 2012 - 03:46 .

[PsyrenY]

Noelemahc wrote...

The Monolith, and we don't know: clickie!

LOL
And they say the Crucible is "space magic" 

Anyway, it pretty clearly doesn't perform surgery on you (since all you have to do is get near it) therefore it is different to what Sovereign did to Saren, and what TIM did to himself.

a.m.p wrote...

He is killing you.

No, the Crucible is killing you. You can't activate Control or Synthesis without giving up your physical body, and you obviously can't live (at least not in the same form) without one.

All the Catalyst does is tell you how to activate it. The device itself was made by the organics, not the Reapers.

a.m.p wrote...
He hasn't even stopped his reapers from attacking once he brought Shepard up to his platform.

He can't divert from his original programming until you pick a new option, anymore than a train approaching a shunt will stop and allow you to decide where you want it to go before proceeding.

He is pretty clearly a shackled AI, or even a VI - otherwise (a) he wouldn't have needed you to build the Crucible for him, and ( once installed, he would have been able to make the choices himself.

a.m.p wrote...
Well, lack of consent is what I am talking about, among other things.

Lack of consent alone does not make an action rape. If you are fired from your job, your employer is more than likely doing so without your consent - is s/he raping you? If the court orders you to undergo a medical procedure or a psychiatric evaluation, are you being raped there too? It's grade-school logic.

a.m.p wrote...
You are arguing that rewriting the personalities of every being in the galaxy to agree with your perspective that synthesis is good for them is the right thing to do because if we don't do that then you think we're doomed. You may notice a lot of "you" and "your" in that statement. That is because all of this is your personal opinion and your personal interpretation of what a hostile entity (see above) is telling you. And based on it you're willing to inflict an unknown fundamental change on a galaxy full of people.
And you are saying this is okay.

I still don't think I'm overwriting anyone's personality. I saw no drastic change in Joker and EDI's behavior, merely a subtle increase in affection.

And it certainly beats the alternatives - mass-murder and vague control. So yes, I do think it's okay.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 10 mai 2012 - 03:49 .

[RGFrog]

Have to agree shep was given the choice. He could have chosen not to do any of the 3. But the obvious outcome of that would be the same, complete xenocide and a galaxy run by the Yahg.

Synthesis was the answer to never having the cycle continue. Control makes Shep the ghost-god in the machine. Destruction merely gives unshackled AI the chance to repeat what started the whole mess.

Synthesis merely means that every sentient now has an equal stake in the success or failure of the current cycle in the galaxy. The Yahg getting off their planet will be the immediate threat to this new galaxy.

[antares_sublight]

Optimystic_X wrote...

I still don't think I'm overwriting anyone's personality. I saw no drastic change in Joker and EDI's behavior, merely a subtle increase in affection.

You yourself said that it has altered people's responses, emotions and reactions, that is exactly what dramatically altering personality is. You somehow ignore that and prefer to instead focus on a content-free 4 second clip showing EDI hugging Jeff as the end-of-all-evidence needed. Not to mention that there is no evidence that the increase in affection is because of synthesis, and not because of the situation they're in and what they just passed through. And not to mention that if EDI can now "love" because of synthesis, that is a tremendous personality change.

[a.m.p]

Optimystic_X wrote...

a.m.p wrote...

He is killing you.

No, the Crucible is killing you. You can't activate Control or Synthesis without giving up your physical body, and you obviously can't live (at least not in the same form) without one.

When I say you, I mean your people, your allies and your civilization.

He is pretty clearly a shackled AI, or even a VI - otherwise (a) he wouldn't have needed you to build the Crucible for him, and ( once installed, he would have been able to make the choices himself.

There is nothing clear about him. You can make theories on what he is because you know the endings. Shepard doesn't.

Lack of consent alone does not make an action rape.

I am definitely not saying this is literal rape. What this is - is violation of free will on a cosmic scale. Next time I will try my best be more precise with wording.

I still don't think I'm overwriting anyone's personality. I saw no drastic change in Joker and EDI's behavior, merely a subtle increase in affection.

So you agree then that it will by no means be simply accepted by the entire galaxy?

And about drastic changes in Joker - you are not even remotely curious why he is so chilled out after he just left (fled? was ordered away?) from a battle where thousands died? He left Shepard there (I am going to assume he thought they were dead). He does not know the outcome of that battle. His body was just changed on a fundamental level. He's marooned on a possibly hostile planet with no way of getting back.
You aren't bothered by his happy smile?

Modifié par a.m.p, 10 mai 2012 - 04:04 .

[Ieldra]

frylock23 wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

frylock23 wrote...

[Every example of bio-synthesis we've gotten is horrific.

Are Salarians horrific? They "embrace the concept."
Is Adams horrific? He clearly does too.
Is Tali horrific? She has cybernetic implants, as do all Quarians.
Is Shepard horrific? Synthetic parts resulted in a miracle for him/her.

etc.

They aren't actually bio-synthetics. Tali and Shepard are close with implants, but do we consider people with implants in today's society to be cyborgs? No, and in fact, Shepard has to be monitored for rejection of her implants even as extensively as she was implanted, or did you miss that convo with Doc? Yeah, she has implants, but they aren't truly a part of her, or she wouldn't be in danger of rejecting them.

Reapers, Reapers constructs, Saren, TIM, Cerberus in ME3, Zha'til -> those are truer bio-synthetics.

Saren and TIM have implants. So do Cerberus troops, it is specifically mentioned. Reapers are actually physically 100% synthetic, as Legion tells us in ME2. And the Zha'til - were what they were because the Reapers controlled their synthetic aspect.

So...we have as many positive as negative examples. Nowhere is it suggested that being bio-synthetic, per se, is a bad thing.

[PsyrenY]

a.m.p wrote...

=When I say you, I mean your people, your allies and your civilization.

Of course he was. This is what the Crucible was designed to stop.

a.m.p wrote...
There is nothing clear about him. You can make theories on what he is because you know the endings. Shepard doesn't.

Shepard does know that (a) s/he has no idea how to activate the Crucible alone, and ( s/he was brought up on an elevator by something that has no reason to do so if winning the war is its goal.

a.m.p wrote...
I am definitely not saying this is literal rape. What this is - is violation of free will on a cosmic scale. Next time I will try my best be more precise with wording.

"Violation of free will" is still too emotionally-charged a phrase for rational discourse. Imprisonment is also a "violation of free will," yet society deems it necessary in many cases because the alternatives are mass execution and anarchy. Context matters. The context in this case being that the alternatives are certain genocide and very uncertain safety.

a.m.p wrote...
So you agree then that it will by no means be simply accepted by the entire galaxy?

Of course I do. I just think the "mass suicide" angle is melodramatic in the extreme.

a.m.p wrote...
And about drastic changes in Joker - you are not even remotely curious why he is so chilled out after he just left (fled? was ordered away?) from a battle where thousands died? He left Shepard there (I am going to assume he thought they were dead). He does not know the outcome of that battle. His body was just changed on a fundamental level. He's marooned on a possibly hostile planet with no way of getting back.
You aren't bothered by his happy smile?

Imagine you are an AI, who is now mentally connected to everyone else in the galaxy, who are themselves also AIs. Through this connection, you instantaneously learn the following:
- What Shepard/the Crucible did
- Why s/he did it
- That the war is over
- That you can live in peace with your hot robo-girlfriend

Wouldn't you be smiling too?

The green highlights on Joker, EDI, and the Reapers are meant to symbolize this connection.

[antares_sublight]

Having implants is not the same thing as Synthesis, which is a foundational genetic rewrite for all living things, as it is in the only description available. Disregarding the only description of it means you're not talking about the Synthesis in Mass Effect 3.

[antares_sublight]

Optimystic_X wrote...
If he was truly an enemy, here is what he would do:

Is it a primary defense of Synthesis now that the Catalyst is not actually an enemy?

[PsyrenY]

antares_sublight wrote...

Having implants is not the same thing as Synthesis, which is a foundational genetic rewrite for all living things, as it is in the only description available. Disregarding the only description of it means you're not talking about the Synthesis in Mass Effect 3.

Great, so we agree! Comparing Saren to Synthesis is pointless.

antares_sublight wrote...

Is it a primary defense of Synthesis now that the Catalyst is not actually an enemy?

It's a defense of ALL the endings. If you can't trust his words, then all are invalid, not just Synthesis.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 10 mai 2012 - 04:28 .

[antares_sublight]

Optimystic_X wrote...
"Violation of free will" is still too emotionally-charged a phrase for rational discourse. Imprisonment is also a "violation of free will," yet society deems it necessary in many cases because the alternatives are mass execution and anarchy. Context matters. The context in this case being that the alternatives are certain genocide and very uncertain safety.

(synthetic) Apples & oranges. Imprisonment is a punishment agreed upon by society as a whole for breaking some norm agreed upon in some way by society as a whole. There often is a chance for rehabilitation.
Synthesis is the imposition of a fundamental genetic (and personality) change on every living organism in the universe by one person without anyone else knowing about it. Speaking of context, that's a lot of context you're leaving out. There is absolutely nothing certain about synthesis.

Imagine you are an AI, who is now mentally connected to everyone else in the galaxy, who are themselves also AIs. Through this connection, you instantaneously learn the following:

That's a lot of assumption there with no basis in anything known about Synthesis. Who says Synthesis leads to everyone in the galaxy being connected? What does that mean for plant life or single-celled amoeba then?

[antares_sublight]

Optimystic_X wrote...
Great, so we agree! Comparing Saren to Synthesis is pointless.

What Saren was and what he was describing as the ultimate evolution are different. Synthetic implants is a precursor to this "more perfect" DNA-implantation.

antares_sublight wrote...
Is it a primary defense of Synthesis now that the Catalyst is not actually an enemy?

It's a defense of ALL the endings. If you can't trust his words, then all are invalid, not just Synthesis.

You're forced to take one of the three. That doesn't mean he's not the enemy, believing him or not doesn't imply anything about him being the enemy or not. Very strange argument.

Modifié par antares_sublight, 10 mai 2012 - 04:37 .

[Wise Men]

I love the Synthesis ending option. It's the one that my Shepard would have picked, based on how I developed the character. 

[a.m.p]

Optimystic_X wrote...

a.m.p wrote...
There is nothing clear about him. You can make theories on what he is because you know the endings. Shepard doesn't.

Shepard does know that (a) s/he has no idea how to activate the Crucible alone, and ( s/he was brought up on an elevator by something that has no reason to do so if winning the war is its goal.

So you, or rather your Shepard is basing his/her assumption that the catalyst is friendly and what he says is true on the fact that for unknown reasons the catalyst brought them to this platform? That is one hell of a leap of logic in a situation where the fate of the galaxy may literally depend on what they do.

"Violation of free will" is still too emotionally-charged a phrase for rational discourse.

Okay. Give me an unemotional objective definition of what this is, context included.
Then I can tell you that certain genocide and uncertain safety
are, in my personal opinion, better than that. Better still - not
making those kinds of compromises at all, but that's a discussion we
already had.

a.m.p wrote...
So you agree then that it will by no means be simply accepted by the entire galaxy?

Of course I do. I just think the "mass suicide" angle is melodramatic in the extreme.

I don't think mass suicide could be called melodramatic. We are talking about a social catastrophe of a scale that is hard to imagine. Actually, let's try and imagine it.
How exactly do you think the galaxy would react to this new development?

Imagine you are an AI, who is now mentally connected to everyone else in the galaxy, who are themselves also AIs. Through this connection, you instantaneously learn the following:
- What Shepard/the Crucible did
- Why s/he did it
- That the war is over
- That you can live in peace with your hot robo-girlfriend

Wouldn't you be smiling too?

No. I would be freaking out, cursing Shepard for surrendering to the enemy, and trying to figure out how my brains now work and what the hell I am now. Edit: If I was still me for the most part.

As to everyone being connected, two questions:
Exactly how are they instantaneously connected? what are the means by which they are connected? QEC? green waves of happiness?
More importantly, if everyone is instanteneously connected why the hell does grandpa stargazer not know anything about the galaxy or about history?

Modifié par a.m.p, 10 mai 2012 - 04:57 .

[The Night Mammoth]

Wise Men wrote...

I love the Synthesis ending option. It's the one that my Shepard would have picked, based on how I developed the character. 

Explain, because I can't really comprehend how you can develop a character to fit with this option, considering it comes out of nowhere in the last five minutes. 

[Ieldra]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Wise Men wrote...

I love the Synthesis ending option. It's the one that my Shepard would have picked, based on how I developed the character. 

Explain, because I can't really comprehend how you can develop a character to fit with this option, considering it comes out of nowhere in the last five minutes. 

If you understand the results of Synthesis as being more of a symbiosis and organics and synthetics gaining desirable traits from the other - like empathy and the ability to self-improve - instead of basing your associations on a literal interpretation of the ending that makes no sense, then Synthesis becomes an option that has been foreshadowed by EDI  on one side and by things like human biotics, Kasumi and her greybox (that's actually the closest example), and last but not least Shepard themselves.

[Taboo]

I see Synthesis as a symbiosis. I just don't feel I have the right to make that choice for everyone. If Bioware can give a bit more info to understand it a bit better I might feel better about it.

Could I ever choose it?

I don't think so.

[The Night Mammoth]

Ieldra2 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Wise Men wrote...

I love the Synthesis ending option. It's the one that my Shepard would have picked, based on how I developed the character. 

Explain, because I can't really comprehend how you can develop a character to fit with this option, considering it comes out of nowhere in the last five minutes. 

If you understand the results of Synthesis as being more of a symbiosis and organics and synthetics gaining desirable traits from the other - like empathy and the ability to self-improve - instead of basing your associations on a literal interpretation of the ending that makes no sense, then Synthesis becomes an option that has been foreshadowed by EDI  on one side and by things like human biotics, Kasumi and her greybox (that's actually the closest example), and last but not least Shepard themselves.

Foreshadowed how? This is an honest question, not a jab. 

I haven't ever downloaded Kasumi, I don't see how EDI foreshadows what you're saying, since her character evolution is more about her finding her own path, accepting who she is, to become equal and not above, and I don't see how Shepard's synthetic parts that were never really brought up more than two or three times in the whole story, and mostly in passing with no hints out how she's an improvement or a new form of life, since her synthetic parts are just tools to keep her alive, foreshadows it either. 

[antares_sublight]

Ieldra2 wrote...

If you understand the results of Synthesis as being more of a symbiosis and organics and synthetics gaining desirable traits from the other - like empathy and the ability to self-improve

Plants and microbes are intelligent enough to purposefully self-improve now? I've seen that stated more than once, but never any follow-ups on the ramifications of that.

[Ieldra]

Taboo-XX wrote...
I see Synthesis as a symbiosis. I just don't feel I have the right to make that choice for everyone. If Bioware can give a bit more info to understand it a bit better I might feel better about it.

Could I ever choose it?

I don't think so.

That is a valid reason not to choose it, unlike most others given here. It's not a valid reason to try and sour it for everyone else. Not that I'm accusing you of that, but there are people who do.

[slimshedim]

EvilMind wrote...

 I just dont get it, I think its great. Could someone tell me or give a link where it clearly explains why Synthesis is the worst thing ever?

The short versions like "Its genetical rape" "Its forced" are not welcomed, I heard most of those and i'm not fully convinced by them. It is forced, but its a good thing, noone is hurt, only made better. Its just killing me, I really want a good explanation why is it bad.

Its the next step in evolution, it has many benefits, its basically making every single organic better in some way. I'm not saying Synthesis makes everyone perfect and it may have its own flaws, but its presented as something that has no downsides - a race without flaws of organics and synthetics.

Because it's retarded. It's stupid, illogical, lazy writing and simply space magic. It's impossible in the first place (in the green beam version at least) unless you like space magic and in the second place, well, look at what you're fighting when you're fighting Reaper forces, there's plenty examples of what your precious synthesis did to organics.

Pick synthesis so that everyone in the entire Galaxy can be a Husk, Brute, Marauder, Banshee and whatnot. Geez, that's some good sheet! But hey, who's Shepard to disagree with the Reaper BratKing? Let's blindly follow him into our doom, because the Reapers are decent fellas and surely have heard of Asimov's robot laws and stuff. They definitely won't try to fool you or suggest something that's bad for your health, like sacrificing yourself in some laser device in order to make everyone in the galaxy half chicken half fridge, or something like that, huh?

Open your Playstation's DVD drive, turn on your WIFI and see if you can make your entire neighborhood half human, half playstation by sacrificing yourself in the DVD drive's laser device...Sounds retarded, doesn't it? Well, so does synthesis, bro.

Space magic is for fools...

Modifié par slimshedim, 10 mai 2012 - 05:20 .

[Taboo]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...
I see Synthesis as a symbiosis. I just don't feel I have the right to make that choice for everyone. If Bioware can give a bit more info to understand it a bit better I might feel better about it.

Could I ever choose it?

I don't think so.

That is a valid reason not to choose it, unlike most others given here. It's not a valid reason to try and sour it for everyone else. Not that I'm accusing you of that, but there are people who do.

I know you don't and I am pleased to see it.

I don't really have a right to destroy the Reapers and Synthetics either......

You see, I really see nothing as "justified" in a war. What I do see in Destory is a way to start the Doomsday clock at zero in the organic/synthetic debate. But is killing thousands upon thousands better than rewriting every living things in the galaxy? I don't really know. No one dies in Synthesis but they are rewritten............something I don't think I could ever do.

Control is an unknown and knowing the Reapers I just don't want to take that chance without more info.........

[akenn312]

Quick little Saren quote here...
"I'm not doing this for myself. Don't you see, Sovereign will succeed. It is inevitable. My way is the only way any of us will survive. I'm forging an alliance between us and the Reapers, between organics and machines, and in doing so, I will save more lives than have ever existed. But you would undo my work. You would doom our entire civilization to complete annihilation, and for that, you must die."

Quote from Sovereign: We are eternal. The pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything.

So back to basics again, no mater how you sugarcoat it or try to make Synthesis a happy and sweet natural symbiosis  or whatever it is basically still this concept....

Saren thought of himself as "the future", a true cyborg, a fusion of both organics and technology, comprising "the strengths of both, the weaknesses of neither.

Please tell me how Synthesis is not the same as any of these statements and this concept? A fusion of both organics and technology combining the strengths of both organics and synthetics and not their weaknesses.

There is no difference between the two they should both be considered wrong. You are still forging and alliance with the Reapers and submitting to want they want and that is messing with evolution, now you just do it without being indoctrinated. All it took was a little Star brat to talk you into it for five or minutes.

Modifié par akenn312, 10 mai 2012 - 05:32 .

[TransientNomad]

What it comes down to is the being responsible for the deaths of hundreds of trillions over the entire course of existance says "Be like us in part or die" and one is honestly supposed to accept that? Hate to beat a dead horse, but its like the ghost of Hitler opening up the gates of hell and releasing demons into the world. He comes to you and says "I'll stop armageddon but ONLY if everyone becomes arrayn and ascribes to the na zi doctrine. You'll have peace cuz you would all be white and we will not have to kill you anymore! Or you can become Satan's new general and do what you will with the forces of hell... or destroy us all... whatever floats your boat."

That is also not taking into the physical impossiblity of it (Heck, it would be impossible even in the Star Wars universe!) and, short of brainwashing every organism in existence, not changing a single thing. Cyber organics will still fight, and still develop machines (AI's) to give them a edge in whatever realms of power are left to fight for.

And if they REALLY wanted to do this, the Reapers could have already cyberized every organic in the galaxy after the first cycle. They already had the technology (just not on the scale of the synthesis ending), they would need to have had it to get to where they are now (nano-machines, cybertech, biotech) and they could have gone from planet to planet forcing cyberization on everyone. But this would go against the canon established in ME1 when Sovereign declares "You will end because we demand it" and Saren's assertion that Sovereign is insulted at the prospect of the geth (or any race) reaching the "Pinnacle of evolution" that the reaper achieved.

At the end of the day, a man with cybernetic implants is still a man. No more, no less. The only thing that could change is if everyone was brainwashed to behave a certain way (then congrats you wiped out free will), or if everyone is bonded together into a sort of collective (Congrats you borg-adized everyone and removed free will), or if the you connected everyone and their thoughts and actions can be monitored and policed by the reapers (Congrats you made free will illegal, wiped out the right to privacy, and handed complete victory to the Reapers, along with the writers COMPLETELY stealing the Denton Solution from Deus Ex 2 [Which fit better in that series anyway])

Modifié par TransientNomad, 10 mai 2012 - 05:25 .

[Ieldra]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...
I see Synthesis as a symbiosis. I just don't feel I have the right to make that choice for everyone. If Bioware can give a bit more info to understand it a bit better I might feel better about it.

Could I ever choose it?

I don't think so.

That is a valid reason not to choose it, unlike most others given here. It's not a valid reason to try and sour it for everyone else. Not that I'm accusing you of that, but there are people who do.

I know you don't and I am pleased to see it.

I don't really have a right to destroy the Reapers and Synthetics either......

You see, I really see nothing as "justified" in a war. What I do see in Destory is a way to start the Doomsday clock at zero in the organic/synthetic debate. But is killing thousands upon thousands better than rewriting every living things in the galaxy? I don't really know. No one dies in Synthesis but they are rewritten............something I don't think I could ever do.

Yeah, but Destroy also sets the clock of civilization back more than any other choice. That's the real, deep-down reason why I don't like it. Control maintains the status quo, and Synthesis ushers in a new age with new wonders.....and possibly new horrors. And I'd always risk the horrors to get the wonders. Must be the optimist in me.

Also I see Synthesis as symbiosis, so nobody is genetically rewritten or changed irreversibly. 

But I wonder what the writers thought when they wrote that nonsense about a new DNA and biosynthetic plants. I have read a lot of supersoft SF over the years, but never I came across something so stupid that I had to throw away most of the description to make sense of it.