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Why everyone hate Synthesis so much?


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#26
Zolt51

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anorling wrote...
In the leaked ending I believe that the synthesis ending was labeled "one with the reapers" (or similar) in the code.
I think that shows BioWares intentions with synthesis and why I stay away from it Image IPB

Agreed on the principle. In the "dark energy" version, there was an ending where you agreed with the reapers and sacrificed humanity to stop <insert explanation on dark energy here>. Pretty horrific, even if the dark energy explanation had been rock hard, I can only imagine a very small minority of people ever choosing it.

Synthesis is a somewhat toned down, glamourized version of that. It's not nearly as dark, but will still turn off 90% of the players right away.

#27
Random Geth

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If you don't know, then you haven't honestly been looking. It's been said by others and said far more eloquently than I'm capable of saying it, but:

You're forcing a change upon EVERYONE in the galaxy without their conenset. You ignore their religions, their cultures, their personal beliefs, their histories, everything about them in favor of unilaterally shoving your decision down the throat of the entire galaxy. I cured the genophage so the Krogan could have a chance to choose their lot in life. I reconciled the Geth/Quarian conflict so they could choose a better way into the future. I spent three damn games fighting the Reapers so the galaxy could move ahead on its own terms. The Geth and EDI are a horrible, high price. It's better than eventually succumbing to Reaper brainwashing (Control) or raping every culture in the galaxy with Reaper implants (Synthesis). Destroy is the only ending where the galaxy is free of the Reapers to move ahead on its own terms, like I've been fighting for.

All three endings are still f*cking garbage. Raspberry Red is just the *least* garbage of the three.

#28
Gen Petitt

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Eain wrote...

Cribbian wrote...

"No soul, replaced by tech" - Mordin


Well admittedly I always thought that was a silly line anyway. Souls don't exist, so tech can't make them disappear.

Right sure they don't you are what they call "atheist" are you not?

#29
Naerivar

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I actually chose Synthesis, originally. And providing you can make it work, I consider it actually the best option.

Of course I don't have the right to 'genetically rape' everybody. But you neither have the right to commit suicide of two species (Reapers and Geth). Nor do you have the right to control an entire specie. Should we just do nothing because we don't have the right? Or should we accept that apparently somebody forced the choice upon us and choose what we think is best? (because, hey, that's all you can really do).

I never took the 'new DNA' all that serious, because I think the starbrat mentions DNA only because it's something we organics are familiar with. If Shepard had been a synthetic Starbrat would probably mention new circuitry. What he means is just some new make-up, not like anything we've seen before.

Of course this is only even remotely viable if you can actually make it work.


In my defense, it was 4 am in the morning after a working day (starting at 6 am) when I finished the game.

#30
ZIPO396

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Gen Petitt wrote...

Eain wrote...

Cribbian wrote...

"No soul, replaced by tech" - Mordin


Well admittedly I always thought that was a silly line anyway. Souls don't exist, so tech can't make them disappear.

Right sure they don't you are what they call "atheist" are you not?

A soul doesn't neccerily need to relate to religion. A soul can be a number of things. I'd say the Geth have a soul but not in the same way a soul in religion implies.

#31
Sweawm

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Forcing your solution upon others makes you exactly like the Reapers, does it not? Turn into a hypocrite, you might as well be Indoctrinated.
If something is worse that Indoctrination, it's Shepard turning into a hypocritical dictator that makes a choice for the entire galaxy...

What happened to: "I'd rather die than live like that!" ?

#32
Jassu1979

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Eain wrote...

Cribbian wrote...

"No soul, replaced by tech" - Mordin


Well admittedly I always thought that was a silly line anyway. Souls don't exist, so tech can't make them disappear.


Don't be daft. "Soul", as used by Mordin, does not necessarily refer to disembodied supernatural ghost-pilots, but to our whole personality, psyche, mental autonomy - in short, to everything that makes life more than a mechanical processing of resources.

#33
Mobius-Silent

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EvilMind wrote...

d-boy15 wrote...
although, you think just because it's good people will accept and like it?


I actually do. Call me the moral freak, but if some "Casper the friendly ghost" came over to me and offered magically heal all diseases or solve problem of hunger, i'd say force that mother f***er on everyone and spare noone.

It is true that its completely unexplained how Synthesis works and I see why everyone would hate it for that. But i'm not bothered by moral side of the question, dunno maybe i'm f***ed up:O


1. Joker was still limping at the end, who says his disease (any disease) is cured?
2. Who says hunger is cured?
3. The Reapers _may_ now be the "same sort" of life as the once-organics and the Geth, would you be happy to network with them and share their memories as part of our consensus, inculding the slaughter of hundereds of thousands of cycles' of races?
4. What about justice for the slaughtered? Is there no such thing any more, do the reapers just leave in peace because of the change?
5. As an example: I happen to think that being a racial mix is a good thing (maximising your immune response etc) and that everyone being onmisexual and hermaphroditic would be positive for our society (No sexism) would you be ok if I decided to forcibly alter you to conform to my views of "improvement". Collary for Mass effect races: Given that their brain and pheromones are now a synthetic/organic hybrid much like other life It's possible that attractiveness will widen as individuals become responsive to each other common attraction mechanisms. Are you ready to find a reaper sexy? (Dat carapace!) 

"Better" is relative to the axis of measurement. There is no global axis to measure life, a gain in one axis is often a loss in another.

Modifié par Mobius-Silent, 09 mai 2012 - 10:18 .


#34
Necrotron

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Synthesis is nothing the protaganist set out to do, has zero explantation of what it is given to the player, and is a downright evil thing to force upon every living creature in the universe.

The story was never exclusively about synthetics versus organics, and the story itself provides no proof that organics and synthetics will inevitably war against each other. In fact, the story goes to great lengths to prove that peace is possible, and when you finally achieve that peace, it spends all of 10 seconds telling you peace if futile and the only resolution is the destruction of all advanced organic races every fifty thousand years, and the only peaceful resolution is to remove the conflict entirely by making everything half-synthetic? What!? Really? I find it hard to believe that synthetics and organics will always inevitably be at war, also, I find it hard to believe that making everything half-synthetic will prevent wars, let alone preserve the reason to have wars in the first place, to preserve one's individuality.

If someone came to synthesize me, I would fight them to the death to prevent that. And having someone make me half-synthetic without my permission, I would consider them someone who deserves captial punishment for their crimes. My humanity is MY right. And what right do I have to rearrange the DNA of all life in the galaxy?  It is evil, pure and simple.

To quote somoene who is quoted in a few signatures regarding the end, "You did earn the right to forcibly turn every living thing into a cyborg, didn't you?"

Modifié par Bathaius, 09 mai 2012 - 10:19 .


#35
Gen Petitt

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ZIPO396 wrote...

Gen Petitt wrote...

Eain wrote...

Cribbian wrote...
"No soul, replaced by tech" - Mordin

Well admittedly I always thought that was a silly line anyway. Souls don't exist, so tech can't make them disappear.

Right sure they don't you are what they call "atheist" are you not?

A soul doesn't neccerily need to relate to religion. A soul can be a number of things. I'd say the Geth have a soul but not in the same way a soul in religion implies.

It was a mere question that I wanted an answer to and no I will try and sway him from his thought becuase it is not my problem.

#36
Necrotron

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Sweawm wrote...

What happened to: "I'd rather die than live like that!" ?


That is the ending that is ironically not provided to the player, and the only way to achieve it is to ctrl+alt+del and end task, like I did.

#37
Naerivar

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Bathaius wrote...

If someone came to synthesize me, I would fight them to the death to prevent that. And having someone make me half-synthetic without my permission, I would consider them someone who deserves captial punishment for their crimes. My humanity is MY right. And what right do I have to rearrange the DNA of all life in the galaxy?

To quote somoene who is quoted in a few signatures regarding the end, "You did earn the right to forcibly turn every living thing into a cyborg, didn't you?"


And you do have the right to commit suicide? Or brainwashing? Shepard doesn't have the right to make any of the three choices, and yet she has to make one.

Humanity might, arguably, be your right. But aren't you suddenly human any more because someone changed the form you walk around in? I don't want to go into a whole 'is there a soul' discussion. But you are human, regardless of what your body looks like...

#38
ZIPO396

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Gen Petitt wrote...

ZIPO396 wrote...

Gen Petitt wrote...

Eain wrote...

Cribbian wrote...
"No soul, replaced by tech" - Mordin

Well admittedly I always thought that was a silly line anyway. Souls don't exist, so tech can't make them disappear.

Right sure they don't you are what they call "atheist" are you not?

A soul doesn't neccerily need to relate to religion. A soul can be a number of things. I'd say the Geth have a soul but not in the same way a soul in religion implies.

It was a mere question that I wanted an answer to and no I will try and sway him from his thought becuase it is not my problem.

Oh no I'm trying to support you. Just from a different direction. He says they don't period I'm arguing they do as are you. Just in different ways.:lol:

#39
Vapaa

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Naerivar wrote...

But you neither have the right to commit suicide of two species (Reapers and Geth).


Yes you do: self-defense

(as for the Geth, they're collateral damage, sadly)

#40
Naerivar

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Vapaä wrote...

Naerivar wrote...

But you neither have the right to commit suicide of two species (Reapers and Geth).


Yes you do: self-defense

(as for the Geth, they're collateral damage, sadly)


I might, reluctantly, admit that self-defense is a good enough reason to terminate the Reapers. However, if you're talking about the right to do something, you can't just dismiss the Geth as colleteral damage.

Either you accept you do something you don't have the right to do. Or you can't complain about not having the right to force synthesis on everyone.

Modifié par Naerivar, 09 mai 2012 - 10:32 .


#41
Guest_Nyoka_*

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- It's space magic (although all 3 endings are space magic, just asserted as theoretical abstracts with no effort to make them credible).

- The Catalyst pulls it out of his ass in the last minute of the trilogy (control and destruction were hinted at throughout the whole trilogy, and more so throughout ME3).

- You let the Reapers walk free after everything they have done. Trillions dead don't matter.

- There is no pinnacle of evolution, or even "next step" for that matter. Evolution has no direction. This is intelligent design, not evolution. Which leads to the next point:

- You are governing the galaxy instead of fighting for the galaxy. Shepard is no longer a soldier, becomes a demigod.

- Which is what you were fighting against 5 minutes ago: demigods who do what they do because they think they know better.

- The idea of modifying everybody because you know better. Paternalistic autoritharianism, bread and butter of all dictators. Equivalent to brainwashing everybody so they agree with your ideas. Dissent is forbidden in Shepard's new galactic utopia. Worse: not just forbidden, it's wiped out down to a genetic level. She doesn't even need to forbid it.

- People say free will is maintained, but this is meaningless - Shepard proved how little she cares about the will of the people. People who had nothing to do with the Reapers or the war were transformed. The only way for them to not continue building synthetics is for them to accept Shepard's and the Catalyst's ideas. Whether those ideas are better is irrelevant to the issue of free will. They wanted to build synthetics. Now they don't. Shepard changed their minds.

- The idea that empathy can only be gained through uniformity. Now everything is life, there are no distinctions organic/synthetic, and therefore we will get along. First, makes no sense, since twins often don't get along. Second, it contradicts the ideal of unity through dialogue and common goals that we experienced for 99% of the trilogy. Third, it contradicts the humanization of the robotic characters throughout ME3. We are continually being shown that synthetics are people too. EDI falls in love. Legion refers to himself as "I" instead of "we". Then, synthesis states that the only way to avoid an organic/synthetic war and eventual extinction is to make everybody a hybrid, making the stories of EDI and Legion pointless.

#42
Windninja47

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I picked it because it promised peace and made sure nobody but my Shepard died. In retrospect however it was a rather ill-informed choice. The god-child is just like- "Yeah it'll make organics more like synthetics or something." I still ain't quite sure what it does. Cool explosion though- green is my favourite colour.

#43
Zolt51

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Naerivar wrote...

I might, reluctantly, admit that self-defense is a good enough reason to terminate the Reapers. However, if you're talking about the right to do something, you can't just dismiss the Geth as colleteral damage.

Either you accept you do something you don't have the right to do. Or you can't complain about not having the right to force synthesis on everyone.


When you choose Destruction ending, who has the right to do what does not even enter the equation.

You basically choose between a future where everyone dies, including the Geth, vs a future where only the Geth die. Logically speaking that does not make you their murderer.

#44
Obvakhi

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Naerivar wrote...
I might, reluctantly, admit that self-defense is a good enough reason to terminate the Reapers. However, if you're talking about the right to do something, you can't just dismiss the Geth as colleteral damage.

Either you accept you do something you don't have the right to do. Or you can't complain about not having the right to force synthesis on everyone.



Exactly. People keep saying you have no right to force change on everyone. Well, what right do you have to commit genocide on an entire peaceful sentient race?

#45
ZombieChad

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Naerivar wrote...

Of course I don't have the right to 'genetically rape' everybody. But you neither have the right to commit suicide of two species (Reapers and Geth). Nor do you have the right to control an entire specie. Should we just do nothing because we don't have the right? Or should we accept that apparently somebody forced the choice upon us and choose what we think is best? (because, hey, that's all you can really do).

.


The Geth joined the war knowing that not to do so means extinction anyway. The loss of one species is a lot less than all species.  

Synthesis is insidious as it has short term and long term unknown consequences of merging ourselves with Reapers from physiological and psychological standpoints. Then the previously mentioned point regarding the rewrite of all dna and stripping choices from them. It also doesn't stop synthetics still being made unless things suddenly gain sentience stepping off the production line, meaning that the Reapers turn up a few centuries later and starting again is a possibility.

Destroy on the other hand doesn't commit Genocide on the Geth, they're unfortunate casualties of war, the cost of using a device we didn't fully understand but their loss/sacrfice sets the Galaxy free of Reaper control, their legacy is the freedom of all species, now and those that evolving and advancing. I hate that I had to wipe them out, which is why the sacrifice is there, to make you make the decision harder. That's a hell of a lot better than anything Synthesis offers them and everyone else which to me is a cyanide pill coated  in chocolate.

Oh and the Reapers are Dead...

**editted to refine a point**

Modifié par ZombieChad, 09 mai 2012 - 10:44 .


#46
EvilMind

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When we cure genophage, isn't that too 'genetic rape' and 'forced'? What if Synthesis also cured some diseases, would then it be okay? Draw a line for me please.

#47
Pelle6666

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Through the entire series we have been told how our differences is what makes us great. The Geth were compelling only because they were so unlike us! The beauty of the the relationship between Joker and Edi is that they have overcome the barriers of their differences and they did not need synthesis to do so!

My biggest problem with synthesis is that it is taken right out of the air, never during the series have this possibility been even hinted at. The problem is not even presented after the destruction or turning of the heretic geth!

If this isn't enough I can just recite an old friend who had the opportunity to experience synthesis, first hand;
"The relationship is symbiotic. Organic and machine intertwined, a union of flesh and steel, the strengths of both, the weaknesses of neither!"

#48
Random Geth

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EvilMind wrote...

When we cure genophage, isn't that too 'genetic rape' and 'forced'? What if Synthesis also cured some diseases, would then it be okay? Draw a line for me please.


That is a mind-bogglingly stupid question.  How do you figure curing a disease that causes stillbirths and forcing cyborg transitions upon everyone in the galaxy as the same?  Explain *that* to me first, if you would.

#49
ZombieChad

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EvilMind wrote...

When we cure genophage, isn't that too 'genetic rape' and 'forced'? What if Synthesis also cured some diseases, would then it be okay? Draw a line for me please.


Synthesis provides a convenient bridge for diseases to jump species gaps. There is also no reason why Synthesis would stop diseases anyway as that wasn't the point. 

Curing the Genophage is righting a war atrocity committed by the Salarian and Turian forces. I can't believe you'd consider them even remotely comparable.

#50
wright1978

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It is the preferred solution of the insane genocidal maniac. The same bloke who butchered the protheans and turned them into a dronelike species of mixed organic and tech elements. Given that i think it highly likely that synthesis does something similar to life. In order to stop what it believes to be an inevitable conflict between organics and AIs it plans to stunt life so it never has the temerity or ability to create anything again let alone new AI's.