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Why everyone hate Synthesis so much?


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#51
EvilMind

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Random Geth wrote...

EvilMind wrote...

When we cure genophage, isn't that too 'genetic rape' and 'forced'? What if Synthesis also cured some diseases, would then it be okay? Draw a line for me please.


That is a mind-bogglingly stupid question.  How do you figure curing a disease that causes stillbirths and forcing cyborg transitions upon everyone in the galaxy as the same?  Explain *that* to me first, if you would.


I know its stupid, but in both cases we make choice for others and it affects them on cellular level. Didn't someone just say that even if its a "good thing" you cant make choice for others.

#52
Gen Petitt

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"No basterd ever one a war by dieing for his country. He won it by making the other other poor dumb basterd die for his country!" - Patton
This sums up what to do with the reapers.

#53
Peranor

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EvilMind wrote...

Random Geth wrote...

EvilMind wrote...

When we cure genophage, isn't that too 'genetic rape' and 'forced'? What if Synthesis also cured some diseases, would then it be okay? Draw a line for me please.


That is a mind-bogglingly stupid question.  How do you figure curing a disease that causes stillbirths and forcing cyborg transitions upon everyone in the galaxy as the same?  Explain *that* to me first, if you would.


I know its stupid, but in both cases we make choice for others and it affects them on cellular level. Didn't someone just say that even if its a "good thing" you cant make choice for others.



The Krogans wanted the genophage cured. They made that choice for themselves. We didn't force the cure upon them and we certainly didn't make the choice for them.

Modifié par anorling, 09 mai 2012 - 10:54 .


#54
Naerivar

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Nyoka wrote...
- You let the Reapers walk free after everything they have done. Trillions dead don't matter.

- There is no pinnacle of evolution, or even "next step" for that matter. Evolution has no direction. This is intelligent design, not evolution. Which leads to the next point:

- You are governing the galaxy instead of fighting for the galaxy. Shepard is no longer a soldier, becomes a demigod.

- Which is what you were fighting against 5 minutes ago: demigods who do what they do because they think they know better.

- The idea of modifying everybody because you know better. Paternalistic autoritharianism, bread and butter of all dictators. Equivalent to brainwashing everybody so they agree with your ideas. Dissent is forbidden in Shepard's new galactic utopia. Worse: not just forbidden, it's wiped out down to a genetic level. She doesn't even need to forbid it.

- People say free will is maintained, but this is meaningless - Shepard proved how little she cares about the will of the people. People who had nothing to do with the Reapers or the war were transformed. The only way for them to not continue building synthetics is for them to accept Shepard's and the Catalyst's ideas. Whether those ideas are better is irrelevant to the issue of free will. They wanted to build synthetics. Now they don't. Shepard changed their minds.

- The idea that empathy can only be gained through uniformity. Now everything is life, there are no distinctions organic/synthetic, and therefore we will get along. First, makes no sense, since twins often don't get along. Second, it contradicts the ideal of unity through dialogue and common goals that we experienced for 99% of the trilogy. Third, it contradicts the humanization of the robotic characters throughout ME3. We are continually being shown that synthetics are people too. EDI falls in love. Legion refers to himself as "I" instead of "we". Then, synthesis states that the only way to avoid an organic/synthetic war and eventual extinction is to make everybody a hybrid, making the stories of EDI and Legion pointless.


Punishing the Reapers is not relevant. Wikipedia (not a really trusty source I know) gives 6 reasons for punishment:
Prevention: which is hardly relevant because I doubt someone else will be able to recreate the reapers to wipe out life again and again.
Rehabilitation: Not releveant, Reapers were never part of our society. And since they are each a nation, not do they need to be.
Social protection: That's already achieved with synthesis
Restoration: One might put the reapers to work, rebuilding everything they destroyed. But I doubt that any organic would actually accept that...
Education: The reapers made a very basic error in their way of thinking. This won't really be helped by punishing them. Maybe if you would let them work with both synthetics and organics? I can't see anybody willing to do that, also this is a way to prevent a crime happening again, which was already prevented by synthesis.
Retribution. Punishing just for punishing is never a good idea. It really would reduce organics down to barbarism. Which would (in my eyes) almost justify the Reapers killing everybody.

There is indeed no pinnacle of evolution. However, what humans (and maybe other sentient organics) do, is change their surroundings to their own behaviour. Not the other way around. Once people are getting smart enough to either change the situation, rather than themselves. Or adapt themselves with cybernetics/organic means, then evolution will come to a halt because it's just too slow. This is already happening in our current society, let alone 200 years in the future.

What is wrong with becoming a demigod?

Everybody can only do what they think is best. Why would your opinion be worse than anybody else's? Yes, you might want to ask other people's opinions on the matter, but that wasn't possible here.

Dictatorships is actually a valid way of ruling a population. In a lot of aspects is better than a democracy. Because they actually get things done. The only downside is the fact that a single person is often corruptable.

EVERYBODY is a part of the Reaper war.

The starchild never states that all life will be exactly the same. He only informs that synthesis will provide new blueprints for everybody. It's far more 'logical' that species with different genetical make up will stilll be different after synthesis. It may not solve all problems in the galaxy, but what is the root of all problems? Resources. We only fight because something is important to us. Synthetics need far less resources than organics. If they don't like somebody they could just move away. Something that is often not possible due to a lack of resources.


Note: there are a lot of things wrong with synthesis. But I do enjoy playing the devil's advocate.

#55
legion999

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EvilMind wrote...

Random Geth wrote...

EvilMind wrote...

When we cure genophage, isn't that too 'genetic rape' and 'forced'? What if Synthesis also cured some diseases, would then it be okay? Draw a line for me please.


That is a mind-bogglingly stupid question.  How do you figure curing a disease that causes stillbirths and forcing cyborg transitions upon everyone in the galaxy as the same?  Explain *that* to me first, if you would.


I know its stupid, but in both cases we make choice for others and it affects them on cellular level. Didn't someone just say that even if its a "good thing" you cant make choice for others.


Except the Krogan wanted the Genophage to be cured. And Shepard at least talked to the individuals he's affecting with his choice. Synthesis does neither forcing change on everything without even considering the consequences (Shepard knew what could happen if the genophage was cured) or asking the opinion on those whose lives he's changing.

Modifié par legion999, 09 mai 2012 - 10:56 .


#56
Izzamegan

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EvilMind wrote...

When we cure genophage, isn't that too 'genetic rape' and 'forced'? What if Synthesis also cured some diseases, would then it be okay? Draw a line for me please.


No to me it's the opposite - reversing the "genetic rape" forced on the Krogan.

#57
legion999

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Izzameg wrote...

EvilMind wrote...

When we cure genophage, isn't that too 'genetic rape' and 'forced'? What if Synthesis also cured some diseases, would then it be okay? Draw a line for me please.


No to me it's the opposite - reversing the "genetic rape" forced on the Krogan.


Also this^.

#58
XXIceColdXX

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Space Magic....

#59
Vapaa

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Naerivar wrote...


I might, reluctantly, admit that self-defense is a good enough reason to terminate the Reapers. However, if you're talking about the right to do something, you can't just dismiss the Geth as colleteral damage.


No I can't, but I have to

I'd rather wipe out ONE race than change the very nature of the life; on the scale of abusiveness, Destroy, while being already pretty high, is still lower than Synthesis

Modifié par Vapaä, 09 mai 2012 - 10:59 .


#60
Guest_Droidsbane42_*

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Turns everyone into borg
Brings back bad memories from Star trek TMP
turns toasters into racoons (the energy that turned Bender into a human, same as colour of synthesis beam)

and to top it all off its the one choice the little gobshiet has no problem with

#61
Guest_john_sheparrd_*

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synthesis is the greates bull**** I ever heard of
it is what saren wanted in me 1 and we stopped him and could even convince him that this is
not right
shepard would never force people to be someting like that
so you like synthesis ?? good for you saren!

#62
Naerivar

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ZombieChad wrote...

Naerivar wrote...

Of course I don't have the right to 'genetically rape' everybody. But you neither have the right to commit suicide of two species (Reapers and Geth). Nor do you have the right to control an entire specie. Should we just do nothing because we don't have the right? Or should we accept that apparently somebody forced the choice upon us and choose what we think is best? (because, hey, that's all you can really do).

.


The Geth joined the war knowing that not to do so means extinction anyway. The loss of one species is a lot less than all species.  

Destroy on the other hand doesn't commit Genocide on the Geth, they're unfortunate casualties of war, the cost of using a device we didn't fully understand but their loss/sacrfice sets the Galaxy free of Reaper control, their legacy is the freedom of all species, now and those that evolving and advancing. I hate that I had to wipe them out, which is why the sacrifice is there, to make you make the decision harder. That's a hell of a lot better than anything Synthesis offers them and everyone else which to me is a cyanide pill coated  in chocolate.

Oh and the Reapers are Dead...

**editted to refine a point**


Of course, logically speaking, the extinction of one race is preferable to the extinction of every species. I am not arguing that (I don't have a problem with being a person that 'sacrifices 10 million people here, to save 20 million there')

But we were talking about having the right to do something. No matter how you look at it, you kill all the geth if you pick Destroy. That means you are responsible for that. Just that it is the lesser of three evils does not mean it's suddenly a right decision. You still commit genocide (or atleast mass synthetic-cide). Which is an action you don't have the right to do.

#63
Guest_Nyoka_*

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Even someone like Naerivar who likes totalitarian regimes says "there are a lot of things wrong with synthesis".

It's THAT bad.

#64
wicked_being

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Synthesis is touted as the final evolution of life. So like suddenly I'm on equal footing with my pet goldfish. And my pet goldfish is suddenly on equal footing with the algae in the water. So that's like me, being on equal footing with my pet goldfish and the algae because all species have now reached the final evolution of life.

Modifié par wicked_being, 09 mai 2012 - 11:23 .


#65
Karrie788

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Naerivar wrote...


Of course, logically speaking, the extinction of one race is preferable to the extinction of every species. I am not arguing that (I don't have a problem with being a person that 'sacrifices 10 million people here, to save 20 million there')

But we were talking about having the right to do something. No matter how you look at it, you kill all the geth if you pick Destroy. That means you are responsible for that. Just that it is the lesser of three evils does not mean it's suddenly a right decision. You still commit genocide (or atleast mass synthetic-cide). Which is an action you don't have the right to do.

Yep, you still commit genocide, and yeah, Shep will be responsible for it for the rest of their life (provided they survive) but this is the only ending in which you actually accomplished your goal: destroy the Reapers once and for all.
It's war, so I get that you have to make sacrifices. It really, really sucks, but you had to do it. It's like sacrificing the Batarian colonists in Arrival, albeit at a much larger scale. Would you say Shepard had no right to sacrifice those people (I'm actually asking, that's not a rethorical question)? To stop the Reapers you had to be ready to make any sacrifice. At this point I personally don't think it's about having the right to do so or not.

Synthesis on the other hand... I personally can't pay the price it implies. The Reapers are still alive, I'm basically gambling every single life in the galaxy on the words of my enemy, and I don't think I have the right to make that gamble.

#66
Naerivar

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Nyoka wrote...

Even someone like Naerivar who likes totalitarian regimes says "there are a lot of things wrong with synthesis".

It's THAT bad.


I'm not sure if I should be flattered that you quoted me in such a way, or be offended that you called me a totalitarian. :huh:. I just totally disagree with Democracy is all.


Karrie788 wrote...

Naerivar wrote...


Of
course, logically speaking, the extinction of one race is preferable to
the extinction of every species. I am not arguing that (I don't have a
problem with being a person that 'sacrifices 10 million people here, to
save 20 million there')

But we were talking about having the
right to do something. No matter how you look at it, you kill all the
geth if you pick Destroy. That means you are responsible for that. Just
that it is the lesser of three evils does not mean it's suddenly a right
decision. You still commit genocide (or atleast mass synthetic-cide).
Which is an action you don't have the right to do.

Yep,
you still commit genocide, and yeah, Shep will be responsible for it
for the rest of their life (provided they survive) but this is the only
ending in which you actually accomplished your goal: destroy the Reapers
once and for all.
It's war, so I get that you have to make
sacrifices. It really, really sucks, but you had to do it. It's like
sacrificing the Batarian colonists in Arrival, albeit at a much larger
scale. Would you say Shepard had no right to sacrifice those people (I'm
actually asking, that's not a rethorical question)? To stop the Reapers
you had to be ready to make any sacrifice. At this point I personally
don't think it's about having the right to do so or not.

Synthesis
on the other hand... I personally can't pay the price it implies. The
Reapers are still alive, I'm basically gambling every single life in the
galaxy on the words of my enemy, and I don't think I have the right to
make that gamble.


Well, I have a rather controversial view on 'rights' (I believe you have the right to do whatever you want, you just have to accept that everybody else has that too).

The point I tried to make is that synthesis fits in the same category as destroy or control. Whether you put them in 'you have the right to do this' or in 'I don't have the right to do this'. You can only fit all of those 3 in the same category.

I personally think that I do have the right to wipte out the Batarian colony and that I have the right to pick Destroy/Control OR Synthesis.

Modifié par Naerivar, 09 mai 2012 - 11:31 .


#67
Karrie788

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wicked_being wrote...

Synthesis is touted as the final evolution of life. So like suddenly I'm on equal footing with my pet goldfish. And my pet goldfish is suddenly on equal footing with the algae in the water. So that's like me, being on equal footing with my pet goldfish and the algae because all species have now reached the final evolution of life.

:lol:

But seriously, there's no such thing as the "final evolution of life".

#68
Navasha

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For one thing anything that is FORCED upon someone if by very definition NOT good for them. Dictators often claim that they are doing something for the "good" of everyone. It is not.

We are beings of free will, and if there is at least one thing in this universe of which we should have our own control and decision is what happens to our own bodies and minds.

Re-writing the geth was an option that was far worse than just destroying them. It is fundamentally changing someone without their consent. I can't even imagine doing it to a living being. It is about the worse thing I can think of morally.

#69
Eain

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ZIPO396 wrote...

Gen Petitt wrote...

ZIPO396 wrote...

Gen Petitt wrote...

Eain wrote...

Cribbian wrote...
"No soul, replaced by tech" - Mordin

Well admittedly I always thought that was a silly line anyway. Souls don't exist, so tech can't make them disappear.

Right sure they don't you are what they call "atheist" are you not?

A soul doesn't neccerily need to relate to religion. A soul can be a number of things. I'd say the Geth have a soul but not in the same way a soul in religion implies.

It was a mere question that I wanted an answer to and no I will try and sway him from his thought becuase it is not my problem.

Oh no I'm trying to support you. Just from a different direction. He says they don't period I'm arguing they do as are you. Just in different ways.:lol:


There's no explanatory power to the concept of soul. It's an empty term. Everything the soul is supposed to be responsible for can be explained through neurology and analyzing brain processes. I'm not an atheist, I'm a materialist, meaning I believe all answers to our questions can be found in physical matter and physical processes. The soul as a concept is just magic. I don't believe in magic.

#70
Gen Petitt

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Fair enough for the answer I say thank you go as you will

#71
Ieldra

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EvilMind wrote...
I just dont get it, I think its great. Could someone tell me or give a link where it clearly explains why Synthesis is the worst thing ever?

The short versions like "Its genetical rape" "Its forced" are not welcomed, I heard most of those and i'm not fully convinced by them. It is forced, but its a good thing, noone is hurt, only made better. Its just killing me, I really want a good explanation why is it bad.

Its the next step in evolution, it has many benefits, its basically making every single organic better in some way. I'm not saying Synthesis makes everyone perfect and it may have its own flaws, but its presented as something that has no downsides - a race without flaws of organics and synthetics.

It isn't the worst thing ever. Clearly it isn't. Even if the description makes no sense if taken literally, the results are clearly meant to be mostly positive, if you take a closer look at the themes used.

Some threads where Synthesis is appreciated:
http://social.biowar.../index/10515916
http://social.biowar.../index/11903107
http://social.biowar.../index/11863883

The problem is that the description makes no sense if taken literally, and so people have all kinds of weird associations with it.

As I see it. Synthesis is a melding of organic and synthetic life in some unspecified way. Within the context of the ME universe, the apparent premise is that this is a step forward on some scale of artificial evolution. We usually associate that with gaining more control over your environment and yourself and a higher understanding, or at least gaining the tools for that, and I see no reason why we should reject these positive associations for something else.

Within the context of the organic/synthetic problem, the only way Synthesis makes sense as a solution is that it makes post-synthesis life gain all the advantages that would make synthetics capable of causing the extinction of intelligent organic life, thereby making it impossible for future pure synthetic life - which can still exist because it's impossible to prevent - to surpass them and causing the hybrid civilizations' extinction.

Synthesis is a good ending. Whether it is the best, that people will disagree about and that is as it should be. But is is *a* good ending, just as the other two options are good in their own way.

#72
Gen Petitt

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^^ alright Hitler ok say that idea of a "master race" to those that are not

#73
Naerivar

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Navasha wrote...

For one thing anything that is FORCED upon someone if by very definition NOT good for them. Dictators often claim that they are doing something for the "good" of everyone. It is not.

We are beings of free will, and if there is at least one thing in this universe of which we should have our own control and decision is what happens to our own bodies and minds.

Re-writing the geth was an option that was far worse than just destroying them. It is fundamentally changing someone without their consent. I can't even imagine doing it to a living being. It is about the worse thing I can think of morally.


But my mother forced me in this world, she never asked me. Even if 'I' never really existed before my birth it doesn't change the fact that someone created me. Which is forced. Also, taxes are forced upon you, but they are actually quite good for you. Dictators often lie. That's the whole crux of the matter. They fail because they get corrupted, not because they are a dictator (which literally is just a single leader).

Now, it's never really proven that we have free will. In fact, it's hard to determine what free will exactly is. I will however accept your point, for I believe in free will as well/

Samara, I believe, compared the rewriting of the Geth as killing them. I atleast view it like that. When you rewrite a geth, you killed the old individual and created a new one. As such, rewriting is a far more favourable choice than just killing them. It's either killing a lot of enemy geth, or killing a lot of enemy geth and gaining a lot of allies. In a war, the last option would be better, no?

Of course in times when this is the only conflict I'd either leave them alone or just pummel them enough so that they stop harming me (and others).

Gen Petitt wrote...

^^ alright Hitler ok say that idea of a "master race" to those that are not


Hitler made the decision to end the lives of the people he thought less of than Aryans. That's where he went wrong. There is nothing wrong with thinking some race above others. Because, despite what the law says, people are not equal. They should just be treated equally.

Modifié par Naerivar, 09 mai 2012 - 11:45 .


#74
Ieldra

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Navasha wrote...
For one thing anything that is FORCED upon someone if by very definition NOT good for them.

That is wrong. It happens often that people are too stupid or ideologically prejudiced to see what's good for them. Do they have the right to reject it anyway? We tend to say "yes" in our culture, but I don't think the answer is as easy as that.

#75
Karrie788

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Ieldra2 wrote...

Navasha wrote...
For one thing anything that is FORCED upon someone if by very definition NOT good for them.

That is wrong. It happens often that people are too stupid or ideologically prejudiced to see what's good for them. Do they have the right to reject it anyway? We tend to say "yes" in our culture, but I don't think the answer is as easy as that.


Maybe, but you would have to make sure the person taking the decision for everybody "for their own good" is extremely wise at the very least and ideally all-knowing.
I'm not sure anybody, and certainly not Shepard, are fit to take such decisions for the rest of the galaxy regarding their genetic... "destiny".