I find it hilarious they use Arrival as evidence, when it doesn't even necessarily happen with Shepard.
They'll use it as long as it supports their theory. If you call them on it, they'll just throw another piece of "evidence" at you.
Not sure where I heard this but what some individuals do to win arguments based on evidence, when they are not in possession of any hard evidence, is gather up lots and lots of little weak facts and throw them out in quick succession as proof of what they say is true. Then their opponent will try to dismiss those facts by explaining alternate reasons for them but the initial person will just keep throwing out more and more little factoids, ignoring all the explanations.
It's the zerg rush of debate. Some people think that by gathering up tons and tons of little things that can be construed as supporting their argument, they win because in their mind they have all this evidence, ignoring the explanations given to them by their opponent.
I would not find it clever since it means Bioware sold me a game without an actual ending. Even lying in the game with the DLC message about Shepard stopping the Reapers.
This message makes no sense.It may be created by a EA's advertiser who never played this game.
I find it hilarious they use Arrival as evidence, when it doesn't even necessarily happen with Shepard.
They'll use it as long as it supports their theory. If you call them on it, they'll just throw another piece of "evidence" at you.
Not sure where I heard this but what some individuals do to win arguments based on evidence, when they are not in possession of any hard evidence, is gather up lots and lots of little weak facts and throw them out in quick succession as proof of what they say is true. Then their opponent will try to dismiss those facts by explaining alternate reasons for them but the initial person will just keep throwing out more and more little factoids, ignoring all the explanations.
It's the zerg rush of debate. Some people think that by gathering up tons and tons of little things that can be construed as supporting their argument, they win because in their mind they have all this evidence, ignoring the explanations given to them by their opponent.
Yeah I'm aware of this, I don't even know why I bother. The IT just bores me and I pity the fanatics. I much prefer the ones that have actual logic involved like why the Normandy scene doesn't work.
Besides, I still have yet to see how the DLC message fits into IT. Either it has to or the Reapers are defeated by RGB power.
I find it hilarious they use Arrival as evidence, when it doesn't even necessarily happen with Shepard.
The ME:Conviction comic has Vega get upset over the treatment of Shep after the events in Arrival, it happened as far as Bioware is concerned. And know what? If it didn't, Bioware can point to....Soverign, Collector Base, Cerberus Base etc. Any bloody time Shepard comes within 100ft of reaper tech as the start.
"There is no canon"
Shepard doesn't come within 100m of Soveriegn, why would the Collector base indoctrinate people it has a complete different purpose, Cerberus base is the only point on your list that actually makes sense but even then I did not interact with any Reaper tech when passing through. The only real example you have is the derelict Reaper but even that is a stretch, Shepard is on there for a few hours at most?
Shepard has come close to Reaper tech in every single game. Cerberus uses reaper tech (they may have even used it to rebuild Shep). He climbed onto a derlict reaper in ME2.
Bioware said Arrival had big implications for ME3, and Conviction (which says Arrival happened) was written by Mac freaking Walters. It is a key part of the story and Bioware intended you to play it, if you didn't they will say the indoc started elsewhere. But they intended Arrival as the start.
I find it hilarious they use Arrival as evidence, when it doesn't even necessarily happen with Shepard.
The ME:Conviction comic has Vega get upset over the treatment of Shep after the events in Arrival, it happened as far as Bioware is concerned. And know what? If it didn't, Bioware can point to....Soverign, Collector Base, Cerberus Base etc. Any bloody time Shepard comes within 100ft of reaper tech as the start.
"There is no canon"
Shepard doesn't come within 100m of Soveriegn, why would the Collector base indoctrinate people it has a complete different purpose, Cerberus base is the only point on your list that actually makes sense but even then I did not interact with any Reaper tech when passing through. The only real example you have is the derelict Reaper but even that is a stretch, Shepard is on there for a few hours at most?
Shepard has come close to Reaper tech in every single game. Cerberus uses reaper tech (they may have even used it to rebuild Shep). He climbed onto a derlict reaper in ME2.
Bioware said Arrival had big implications for ME3, and Conviction (which says Arrival happened) was written by Mac freaking Walters. It is a key part of the story and Bioware intended you to play it, if you didn't they will say the indoc started elsewhere. But they intended Arrival as the start.
I don't know how I can say it any clearer, Arrival is optional. Start a new game and it wasn't Shepard who did it.
I don't remember directly interacting with Reaper tech in ME1, though I could be wrong it's been a while. Cerberus uses Reaper tech, and? It's specifically said that no Reaper tech was involved in Shepard's ressurrection. Again, if we go by play time he's on the derelict Reaper for minutess. He was likely on there for a few hours. Indoctrination requires prolonged exposure according to every example of indoctrination in the game.
dreman9999 wrote... Then you missed it. 1. Shepard has been near reaper tech since ME1 from Eden prime. That's 3 years of on and off contact. 2. The arrival dlc, which has Shep hit by an indoctrination wave and see visions and vocies after. 3.In ME3, Shep goes through every symtom of indoctrination. 4.Indoctrination is subtle...
5. The theory is he is in the process of it.
It's a case of a last straw breaking the camals back. ME1 and ME2 is like the post of inception which explains the rules of everything, and ME3 is like inceptions ending and have us use the rules given to make connection to the ending. If you're saying it's bad because it's not implied or shown.......Then it's clear that you missed it. More my point can be explained here... http://social.biowar...75/blog/212630/
"5. The theory is he is in the process of it." I take that as a joke. You've meant The theory is he is in the process of it till Bioware decide whether or not to use it.
I haven't miss anything believe me. If the IT was so clear you didn't need to analyze anything, it was sharp and clear.
Hallucination is more reliable than the IT but it still stupid for this kind of series.
No, he is in the the process of it. Shepard in ME3 goes through every symtom of indoctrination. The symtoms are: Stage dreams. Whispers. Head ackes Reduction of calculative thought. Oily shadows. Hallutionations And a complution to do what is told of him from a voice.
Shepard has strang dreams with whispers in it with oily shadows. When Shepard is talik with TIM at the end of the game, they pop agein. Shep here's whispers and sees oily shadow in that scene, even has head ackes.
We also can't prove that the kid that died on earth is real or not. No one other then shepard interacts with him...He Plagues Sheps dream and then end up as the cataylist......And this is after TIM tries to indoctrinate Shepard.
Then there's the conversation with the Star kid, which Shepard never really question any thing he says....Similar too...http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=E5rjiKYmhJg#t=237s Shep is not thinking alot in this scene and is very suggetive to what the Star kid says...
Point being, even if we take the ending as it is...Shepard is still in the process of indoctrination any way.....You missed it.
I would not find it clever since it means Bioware sold me a game without an actual ending. Even lying in the game with the DLC message about Shepard stopping the Reapers.
This message makes no sense.It may be created by a EA's advertiser who never played this game.
How does it not make sense? Shepard breaks the cycle no matter what ending you choose. The message simpy confirms it.
I find it hilarious they use Arrival as evidence, when it doesn't even necessarily happen with Shepard.
The ME:Conviction comic has Vega get upset over the treatment of Shep after the events in Arrival, it happened as far as Bioware is concerned. And know what? If it didn't, Bioware can point to....Soverign, Collector Base, Cerberus Base etc. Any bloody time Shepard comes within 100ft of reaper tech as the start.
"There is no canon"
Shepard doesn't come within 100m of Soveriegn, why would the Collector base indoctrinate people it has a complete different purpose, Cerberus base is the only point on your list that actually makes sense but even then I did not interact with any Reaper tech when passing through. The only real example you have is the derelict Reaper but even that is a stretch, Shepard is on there for a few hours at most?
Shepard has come close to Reaper tech in every single game. Cerberus uses reaper tech (they may have even used it to rebuild Shep). He climbed onto a derlict reaper in ME2.
Bioware said Arrival had big implications for ME3, and Conviction (which says Arrival happened) was written by Mac freaking Walters. It is a key part of the story and Bioware intended you to play it, if you didn't they will say the indoc started elsewhere. But they intended Arrival as the start.
I don't know how I can say it any clearer, Arrival is optional. Start a new game and it wasn't Shepard who did it.
I don't remember directly interacting with Reaper tech in ME1, though I could be wrong it's been a while. Cerberus uses Reaper tech, and? It's specifically said that no Reaper tech was involved in Shepard's ressurrection. Again, if we go by play time he's on the derelict Reaper for minutess. He was likely on there for a few hours. Indoctrination requires prolonged exposure according to every example of indoctrination in the game.
It's doesn't matter if Arrival is optional. The artifact on arrival is not the only reaper tech Shepard has been near by. If you don't play arriaval, then their is the other reaper tech Shepard has been near by since Eden prime in ME1 that starts the process.
Mac Walters could not write his way out of a paper bag.
He was lead writer of ME2, nobody seemed to have a problem with that game. The argument is that there is "no canon". I agree for the most part, but Arrival happened according to Walters. And he helped write ME3.
dreman9999 wrote... It's doesn't matter if Arrival is optional. The artifact on arrival is not the only reaper tech Shepard has been near by. If you don't play arriaval, then their is the other reaper tech Shepard has been near by since Eden prime in ME1 that starts the process.
You mean the dragon's teeth? The Reaper device that specifically requires the impaling of an organic to indoctrinate it?
I find it hilarious they use Arrival as evidence, when it doesn't even necessarily happen with Shepard.
The ME:Conviction comic has Vega get upset over the treatment of Shep after the events in Arrival, it happened as far as Bioware is concerned. And know what? If it didn't, Bioware can point to....Soverign, Collector Base, Cerberus Base etc. Any bloody time Shepard comes within 100ft of reaper tech as the start.
"There is no canon"
Shepard doesn't come within 100m of Soveriegn, why would the Collector base indoctrinate people it has a complete different purpose, Cerberus base is the only point on your list that actually makes sense but even then I did not interact with any Reaper tech when passing through. The only real example you have is the derelict Reaper but even that is a stretch, Shepard is on there for a few hours at most?
Shepard has come close to Reaper tech in every single game. Cerberus uses reaper tech (they may have even used it to rebuild Shep). He climbed onto a derlict reaper in ME2.
Bioware said Arrival had big implications for ME3, and Conviction (which says Arrival happened) was written by Mac freaking Walters. It is a key part of the story and Bioware intended you to play it, if you didn't they will say the indoc started elsewhere. But they intended Arrival as the start.
I don't know how I can say it any clearer, Arrival is optional. Start a new game and it wasn't Shepard who did it.
I don't remember directly interacting with Reaper tech in ME1, though I could be wrong it's been a while. Cerberus uses Reaper tech, and? It's specifically said that no Reaper tech was involved in Shepard's ressurrection. Again, if we go by play time he's on the derelict Reaper for minutess. He was likely on there for a few hours. Indoctrination requires prolonged exposure according to every example of indoctrination in the game.
It's doesn't matter if Arrival is optional. The artifact on arrival is not the only reaper tech Shepard has been near by. If you don't play arriaval, then their is the other reaper tech Shepard has been near by since Eden prime in ME1 that starts the process.
dreman9999 wrote... It's doesn't matter if Arrival is optional. The artifact on arrival is not the only reaper tech Shepard has been near by. If you don't play arriaval, then their is the other reaper tech Shepard has been near by since Eden prime in ME1 that starts the process.
You mean the dragon's teeth? The Reaper device that specifically requires the impaling of an organic to indoctrinate it?
Not only that but hisk give out indoctrination waves. Then there is Sovergin being in the area. And the their is everything else in ME1 and ME2 that can get the ball rolling. Point being, that's 3 year wurth of being near indoctrinating reaper tech.
If IT is true (good theory), yes, I will admit that it's very creative... but I will admit that the game is also incompleted, as the end of Shepard's journey, considering the 3 games, is missing.
So what ? A new DLC should be scheduled as official ending of the trilogy ? Maybe, but it seems that BW explained to us that this kind of DLC is not expected in their plan. We'll see.
... As others have noted, this is an incredible piece of narrative creativity. It forces the audience into the role of shepard and creates a manipulative circumstance in which to trick less-savvy players into going along with the reaper suggestions.
To me, this is freaking genius. Even if you don't believe IT - I am a skeptic too ...
If IT was true, we wouldn't see the Blue and Green endings as we do in game, unless Destroy is *also* IT. Thus I'm also a skeptic. Shepard has never really had to fight indoctrination himself. Shepard has certainly been around enough Reaper tech and while talking with TIM at the end it does seem like it could be occuring.
I do think it'd have been a brilliant twist ending but I don't think that's what they had in mind.
I think IT is interesting but don't want it to be true necessarily. I much preferred the idea that BioWare had something much better up their sleeves that would shock everyone. Alas, after two months i've pretty much lost faith in this too.
The EC may take a lot of the nasties out of the ending, but it's not going to fix it for me. Not if it's just clarifying what I found to be a convoluted and totally illogical ending to an absolutely epic series.
dreman9999 wrote... It's doesn't matter if Arrival is optional. The artifact on arrival is not the only reaper tech Shepard has been near by. If you don't play arriaval, then their is the other reaper tech Shepard has been near by since Eden prime in ME1 that starts the process.
You mean the dragon's teeth? The Reaper device that specifically requires the impaling of an organic to indoctrinate it?
They can also indoctrinate by just being...AKA planet husk 1 in ME1. Not only that but hisk give out indoctrination waves. Then there is Sovergin being in the area. And the their is everything else in ME1 and ME2 that can get the ball rolling. Point being, that's 3 year wurth of being near indoctrinating reaper tech.
Again, these people were studying the Reaper tech. Aka prolonged exposure. And there's no evidence that they indoctrinated by just being there. All you know is there are Dragon's Teeth, and husks. Sovereign was no where near Shepard, and likely didn't even know he was there. There's nothing else in ME1 and only the minuest point in ME2 that actually makes sense.
dreman9999 wrote... It's doesn't matter if Arrival is optional. The artifact on arrival is not the only reaper tech Shepard has been near by. If you don't play arriaval, then their is the other reaper tech Shepard has been near by since Eden prime in ME1 that starts the process.
You mean the dragon's teeth? The Reaper device that specifically requires the impaling of an organic to indoctrinate it?
They can also indoctrinate by just being...AKA planet husk 1 in ME1. Not only that but hisk give out indoctrination waves. Then there is Sovergin being in the area. And the their is everything else in ME1 and ME2 that can get the ball rolling. Point being, that's 3 year wurth of being near indoctrinating reaper tech.
Again, these people were studying the Reaper tech. Aka prolonged exposure. And there's no evidence that they indoctrinated by just being there. All you know is there are Dragon's Teeth, and husks. Sovereign was no where near Shepard, and likely didn't even know he was there. There's nothing else in ME1 and only the minuest point in ME2 that actually makes sense.
dreman9999 wrote... It's doesn't matter if Arrival is optional. The artifact on arrival is not the only reaper tech Shepard has been near by. If you don't play arriaval, then their is the other reaper tech Shepard has been near by since Eden prime in ME1 that starts the process.
You mean the dragon's teeth? The Reaper device that specifically requires the impaling of an organic to indoctrinate it?
They can also indoctrinate by just being...AKA planet husk 1 in ME1. Not only that but hisk give out indoctrination waves. Then there is Sovergin being in the area. And the their is everything else in ME1 and ME2 that can get the ball rolling. Point being, that's 3 year wurth of being near indoctrinating reaper tech.
Again, these people were studying the Reaper tech. Aka prolonged exposure. And there's no evidence that they indoctrinated by just being there. All you know is there are Dragon's Teeth, and husks. Sovereign was no where near Shepard, and likely didn't even know he was there. There's nothing else in ME1 and only the minuest point in ME2 that actually makes sense.
I like how you skip over the prolonged exposure part.
Point out in the first link where it says that exposure to the Dragon's Teeth caused the huskification and prove that there weren't husks on there in the first place. The abandoned mine does not involve Dragon's Teeth, you can't use it to prove Dragon's Teeth indoctrinate by exposure. See above.
dreman9999 wrote... It's doesn't matter if Arrival is optional. The artifact on arrival is not the only reaper tech Shepard has been near by. If you don't play arriaval, then their is the other reaper tech Shepard has been near by since Eden prime in ME1 that starts the process.
You mean the dragon's teeth? The Reaper device that specifically requires the impaling of an organic to indoctrinate it?
They can also indoctrinate by just being...AKA planet husk 1 in ME1. Not only that but hisk give out indoctrination waves. Then there is Sovergin being in the area. And the their is everything else in ME1 and ME2 that can get the ball rolling. Point being, that's 3 year wurth of being near indoctrinating reaper tech.
Again, these people were studying the Reaper tech. Aka prolonged exposure. And there's no evidence that they indoctrinated by just being there. All you know is there are Dragon's Teeth, and husks. Sovereign was no where near Shepard, and likely didn't even know he was there. There's nothing else in ME1 and only the minuest point in ME2 that actually makes sense.
There are some counters: All the parts of Soverign would have crashed all over the Citadel in ME1, yet no one got indoctrinated. I know it's clamed that most of Soverign disapeard maybe by the Keepers, etc.
I don't believe in the IT, but I do think it's an interesting theory. The ending cinematics wouldn't be so similar if IT was real, or all three options are part of the IT with no-way out.
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