32 réponses à ce sujet

[Jhelzei]

From the patch notes:

• Daggers now apply 0.5 points of damage per additional point in dexterity and 0.5 points of damage per additional point in strength, as originally intended. This increases dagger damage for high-dexterity characters.

So how does this affect Lethality? Does a rogue with Lethality and high Cunning get a bump to dagger damage?

[Kanner]

Logicially yes.



Effectively? Eh... who knows...?

[ITSSEXYTIME]

What it means is that before Strength determined your overall damage with daggers, with lethality your Cunning did. With the fix you need equal amounts of Dex/Strength (or Dex/Cunning) to achieve the same amount of damage you would do with buffing Strength/Cunning straight up. Eg rather than 40 points of Cunning, you now need 20 Dex and 20 Cunning to achieve the same damage.  This will obviously benefit you if your Dex and Cunning are both fairly high (30-40) but weaken you if you've focused purely on Strength/Cunning)

Depending on how you build your character you can do less or more damage. Most people have been playing with the dex fix for a while anyway though and doing fine. (myself included)

Modifié par ITSSEXYTIME, 08 décembre 2009 - 11:51 .

[Taleroth]

If the Rogue has higher dexterity than cunning, he gets a boost to damage.

If the Rogue has lower dexterity than cunning, he will actually lose some damage.

[Morvayn]

To my understanding, with the latest patch, a rogue with lethality now gets the same dagger damage from dex and cunning. The difference is cunning gives you more armor penetration... and a better backstab damage if you have expose weakness and/or tainted blade. While dex gives you better attack and defense.  

[kenshindono]

anyone know wheen the 360 is getting a patch

[Jhelzei]

ITSSEXYTIME wrote...

What it means is that before Strength determined your overall damage with daggers, with lethality your Cunning did. With the fix you need equal amounts of Dex/Strength (or Dex/Cunning) to achieve the same amount of damage you would do with buffing Strength/Cunning straight up. Eg rather than 40 points of Cunning, you now need 20 Dex and 20 Cunning to achieve the same damage.  This will obviously benefit you if your Dex and Cunning are both fairly high (30-40) but weaken you if you've focused purely on Strength/Cunning)

Depending on how you build your character you can do less or more damage. Most people have been playing with the dex fix for a while anyway though and doing fine. (myself included)

Hrm, my rogue has high Cunning and Dex (though Cunning is a few points below Dex), and a mediocre strength. Since my Dex is 4-5 points higher than Cunning, it sounds like I'll get a small bump.

There's a Dex fix? Wish I had known about that. But I take it I don't need it any more, right?

[Morvayn]

Jhelzei wrote...

Hrm, my rogue has high Cunning and Dex (though Cunning is a few points below Dex), and a mediocre strength. Since my Dex is 4-5 points higher than Cunning, it sounds like I'll get a small bump.

There's a Dex fix? Wish I had known about that. But I take it I don't need it any more, right?

The dex hotfix repair daggers the same way the latest patch does so no you don't need it anymore 

If your dex is 4-5 points higher than cun you'll get a very tiny damage bump with daggers. But every bit helps eh?!  

[Gliese]

The confusion around this issue is simply incredible. Before: 1 x .85 (str modifier for daggers) per point in str/cunning with lethality.
Now: Half of that for str/cunning and half for dex, that is 1 x .425 per point in either. What that does for your build obviously depends on the build.

Modifié par Gliese, 09 décembre 2009 - 01:32 .

[Id of Ith]

Gliese wrote...

The confusion around this issue is simply incredible. Before: 1 x .85 (str modifier for daggers) per point in str/cunning with lethality.
Now: Half of that for str/cunning and half for dex, that is 1 x .425 per point in either. What that does for your build obviously depends on the build.

Seriously, somehow a lot of you guys are really confused.

Put it this way - if you had Lethality pre-patch and you did nothing but pump Cunning, with this patch you are going to lose half of your Cunning bonus to damage, and gain back whatever you have in Dexterity (please see the above post for the coefficients of those losses/gains). I.E. if you had a ton of Cunning you just got nerfed because your Dexterity sucks and now half your damage modifier comes from that stat instead of it being all Cunning.

The whole point of this fix is that instead of being 50/50 STR/DEX, daggers were 100 STR. Now they are rightly set to 50/50 STR/DEX, so with Lethality you just flop STR with CUN. The only people that actually gain anything from this change are those using daggers that have high DEX (which obviously comes at the cost of STR or CUN).

SO - if you have Lethality, the choice is now "Do I pump Dexterity for gains to my attack rating, defense and damage, or do I pump Cunning for gains to my Cunning-based talents, lockpicking/traps, and damage?". It's no longer totally lopsided in Cunning's favor for the purposes of Lethality + daggers (though still in Cunning's favor nonetheless).

[Valaskjalf]

just go 1/2 dex 1/2 cunning and pump str only to wear armor and you'll be fine.

[AXidenT Gamer]

SO - if you have Lethality, the choice is now "Do I pump Dexterity for gains to my attack rating, defense and damage, or do I pump Cunning for gains to my Cunning-based talents, lockpicking/traps, and damage?". It's no longer totally lopsided in Cunning's favor for the purposes of Lethality + daggers (though still in Cunning's favor nonetheless).

Wouldn't it be best then to pump both relatively equally then to get max damage and attack?

Also is it the same deal with bows?

[Id of Ith]

AXidenT Gamer wrote...

SO - if you have Lethality, the choice is now "Do I pump Dexterity for gains to my attack rating, defense and damage, or do I pump Cunning for gains to my Cunning-based talents, lockpicking/traps, and damage?". It's no longer totally lopsided in Cunning's favor for the purposes of Lethality + daggers (though still in Cunning's favor nonetheless).

Wouldn't it be best then to pump both relatively equally then to get max damage and attack?

Also is it the same deal with bows?

First question: Not really. Attack has an effective limit - when you are hitting 100% of the time on your target, more attack rating does not help. Whenever you reach that limit, further DEX only adds defense (of limited value certainly) and damage (constant gain). Since attack rating's effective limit varies depending on your target, more attack rating usually always has some value, unless your party composition is really just giving you tons of it. Also remember that flanking gives you up to a +20 attack rating bonus in general depending on how close you are to the target's direct back point. CUN, on the other hand, not only increases damage through the modifier but through talents that are more effective with higher CUN, such as Expose Weakness and the bard songs. As such you are actually getting additional damage through CUN in more ways than you will DEX.

With bows, I'm not certain I'm not as familiar with their modifiers (plus it depends on whether you are running the "hotfix" or not, because that is not a direct bug fix but rather a game design change).

[Gelmirthebloody]

AXidenT Gamer wrote...

SO - if you have Lethality, the choice is now "Do I pump Dexterity for gains to my attack rating, defense and damage, or do I pump Cunning for gains to my Cunning-based talents, lockpicking/traps, and damage?". It's no longer totally lopsided in Cunning's favor for the purposes of Lethality + daggers (though still in Cunning's favor nonetheless).

Wouldn't it be best then to pump both relatively equally then to get max damage and attack?

Also is it the same deal with bows?

Not necessarily... as stated above, if you pump mostly cunning over dex, you will actually cause more damage (since with certain Rogue skills, Cunning gives addtional bonuses to damage AND cunning helps with armor penetration). Furthermore, uber high cunning means you can drop locksmith and persuasion... allowing you to pick up an extra power and skill or two.

On the other hand, such a char would have poorer defense and attack.

So it is a trade off.

The above posters are comparing pre-patch chars who built str/dex to dex/cun when they discuss making a char worse or better.

Forget that.

Just use the respec mod to rebuild your stats to your liking.

Edit: the only people losing here are those that built up strength a lot AND who refuse/can't to respec their character using the mod...

Modifié par Gelmirthebloody, 09 décembre 2009 - 02:26 .

[Id of Ith]

Well, the people that build STR very high tend to not use dual daggers, so they are really only losing on OH damage since their MH will pull purely from STR anyway.

[Valaskjalf]

Id of Ith wrote...

Well, the people that build STR very high tend to not use dual daggers, so they are really only losing on OH damage since their MH will pull purely from STR anyway.

of course then they wonder why they cant hit anything or can't pick locks...

[Loetek]

I think where most of the confusion is people think that one out weighs the other... Ill break it down for everyone



Ok in the examples below Im just going to assume you use strength without lethality talent It doesn't really matter. If you plan on using Lethality then just assume i am talking about Cunning.



.5 dex/.5str

If your Dex is Higher than your strength = Does NOT mean that only your dex is only added to the attack/damage

If your Str is Higher than your Dex = Does NOT mean that your Str is only added to your attack/damage

All .5dex/.5str means is that 1 point of str or 1 point of dex gives you HALF of the value to attack and damage... NOT .5

They dont over ride each other they STACK.



Remember... .5dex/.5str does NOT mean .5 to attack and .5 to damage. It simply means that in the mechanics of the game one point in either str or dex is worth half. Its like any other weapon now.



Before it was only .5 to str. Nothing from dex for daggers. That is was was broken and they fixed it. So now daggers act just like any other weapon in the game. As was intended.



Again let me explain:

If you have 100 dex and 90 str... You dont just get the damage and attack from the dex because its higher that str... you get it from both. Hence the .5str/.5dex

[Loetek]

Valaskjalf wrote...

Id of Ith wrote...

Well, the people that build STR very high tend to not use dual daggers, so they are really only losing on OH damage since their MH will pull purely from STR anyway.

of course then they wonder why they cant hit anything or can't pick locks...

Your wrong... sort of.

Strength adds to your attack rating just as dex does.

I think your assuming hes talking about Lethality and cunning... but he doesnt say anything about lethality and cunning.. he is just talking about Strength.

And it is possible to build a rogue without lockpicking and stealth... you dont have to use lethality.

[Gliese]

In a sense max damage output from daggers are nerfed (or rather, fixed) with this patch since going all strength no longer gives the best return (going all cunning I would assume has never been viable bc then your attack rating will suck and you can't equip much armour, but I might be wrong). The change gives more versatility to people looking to max damage on their dagger build since there are now 2 attributes (3 with lethality) that will give the same return on damage but have different side-effects. However post-patch builds will never achieve the DPS of prepatch builds that stacked only strength bc you could raise damage twice as fast by concentrating on just the one attribute before.

[menasure]

kenshindono wrote...

anyone know wheen the 360 is getting a patch

according to the notes after download the console versions already had most of the 1.02 bug fixes incorporated in them.

[cdotzler]

Gliese wrote...

The confusion around this issue is simply incredible. Before: 1 x .85 (str modifier for daggers) per point in str/cunning with lethality.
Now: Half of that for str/cunning and half for dex, that is 1 x .425 per point in either. What that does for your build obviously depends on the build.

That would mean the patch is a big dagger nerf.
3 Points per Levelup * 15 Levels (for a mid game char) = 45 Points
Before: All Points in Cun: 45*0.85 = 38.25 extra damage
After: Half of the Points in Cun: 23*0.425 = 9.775 + Half of the Points in Dex: 22*0.425 = 9.35 = 19.125 extra damage

Does not seem right to me.

[accessd]

Where in the patch notes does it say that the cunning dmg modifier got changed for daggers? I thought the patch only corrected a "bug" in str / dex?

[PedroNaKwasie]

Loetek wrote...


Before it was only .5 to str. Nothing from dex for daggers. That is was was broken and they fixed it. So now daggers act just like any other weapon in the game. As was intended.

Wasn't it 1.0 to str.? Anyway everything else is explained correctly imo.

[CID-78]

Modifié par CID-78, 09 décembre 2009 - 03:21 .

[Gecon]

AXidenT Gamer wrote...
Wouldn't it be best then to pump both relatively equally then to get max damage and attack?

No.

1 Str = 1/2 Atk (assuming Cun is higher and you have Lethality)

1 Dex = 1/2 Dmg, 1/2 Atk

1 Cun = 1/2 Dmg

So best, from the perspective of the dps rogue, would be to pump Dex now. It also gives you defense as well, which neither Str nor Cun does.